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Old 06-17-2011, 08:58 PM   #676
wheatwhacker
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Originally Posted by GeoAggie View Post
The dual sport / adventure bike market has changed dramatically since then however.

Jeff
In what way? Because Charlie and Ewan rode around the world?
Dude, the market is sport bikes and cruisers. The normal Joe Blog out there has no interest in big dual sports. He either wants to ride fast, cruise slowly, rip up single track or ride around with a T shirt and a beanie to the nearest bar. Then, there are the guys that want to "look" the part, put the boxes on and set their destination to the 4 star hotel in the mountains via the Starbucks mapping system.
Its the same in every sport or hobby.

A friend of mine hiked the PCT last year. 3000 miles over 6 months. He used bog standard equipment that he picked up off Craigslist. Then you see guys and gals in REI buying the latest, lightest most expensive gear for a car camping weekend. Yes, they are rich or have good credit.

The real hard core ADV riders I meet, and I have had many stay in my house while they are passing through, are using cheap motorcycles, purchased used and not caring a crap about the latest and greatest.
One guy called me from OZ last spring, asked me to get him a KLR. I got it for $1,800, he spent another $500 getting it kitted out and the last I heard he was somewhere in Panama. Can you imagine telling some guy in Starbucks that while he's staring out at his touratech covered BMW.

So, my point here is, we have La possier, who would not dirty his butt sitting on a crappy Suzuki, we have the overlanders, who want nothing more than a DR or a KLR, you have the truck your bike to the trail guys, then all the cruiser, harley, crotch rocket guys, the commuter guys and then you have us, the few who want a do it all bike. Yes, we are a special breed, unfortunately, we are a small voice in the small sea of motorcycles.
We asked and got the big DR, the TDM, the transalp but when it came to putting our money down, the bikes were left on the showroom floors, hence, we never got the new transalp, the Africa Twin, the TDM 900, the Tenere 660. I really hope Triumph make a success of this tiger 800, but already I see and hear of a lot sitting on the floors. Triumph have sold a bunch, but, the dealers have them still...
The speculation on the Tiger before it came out had people worried that they could not make them fast enough.

Any bike maker now, has to make the bike appeal to a wide audience, which is why the strom 1 was a huge hit. The price was the main selling point, bang for the buck. Your not going to see Joe the bus driver riding a $13K tiger to work, or a $10K strom with "wire wheels and upgraded suspension" He wants a decent bike for $7-8K, and, Suzuki will give him just that because there are more Joe's on the planet then Ewans and Charlie's.

So, yes I'm excited about the new bike, but not expecting the holy grail of motorcycles to come off of Suzuki's line.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:11 PM   #677
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I picked up the Vee after I watched Ewan and Charlie. I know at least three people who switched from standard and sport bikes after they watched (on my live then blog) TAT ride... Plus my cousin in Kazakhstan... He wants to buy my Vee when I'm ready to upgrade...

I'm not in statistic business, but I met many people who switched from just riding to Adventure riding...

And I'll be disappointed if new Suzuki is smaller than 1000cc... There are trail dirt bikes for it to buy...
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:25 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by Voluhzia View Post
I picked up the Vee after I watched Ewan and Charlie. I know at least three people who switched from standard and sport bikes after they watched (on my live then blog) TAT ride... Plus my cousin in Kazakhstan... He wants to buy my Vee when I'm ready to upgrade...

I'm not in statistic business, but I met many people who switched from just riding to Adventure riding...

And I'll be disappointed if new Suzuki is smaller than 1000cc... There are trail dirt bikes for it to buy...
I think E&C just woke a few mid lifers up to the possibilities.

They woke me up to the fact that, I used to do that on POS when that's all I could afford. The "POS" I had were small Jap twins that I didn't like that much at the time but then I realized that they just ran and ran and ran and never gave me cause to worry much I also realized that the whole faster and faster marketing was just not me.

All good. I hope the segment does well. The V-Strom has its place and it doesn't need to be anything other than reliable, competent enough and good value

Cheers
Graham
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:36 PM   #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voluhzia View Post
I picked up the Vee after I watched Ewan and Charlie. I know at least three people who switched from standard and sport bikes after they watched (on my live then blog) TAT ride... Plus my cousin in Kazakhstan... He wants to buy my Vee when I'm ready to upgrade...

I'm not in statistic business, but I met many people who switched from just riding to Adventure riding...

And I'll be disappointed if new Suzuki is smaller than 1000cc... There are trail dirt bikes for it to buy...
Exactly my friend, you picked up a Vee, made by Suzuki for the masses, not just for the chosen few. Made of cheap components, the ones we all complain about, but never complain about the price.
Suzuki will make another bike for the masses, hopefully better and with a pretttier front than the last one, and, hopefully it will be another sucess.
It will still be a cheap bike though, well, it will have to be.
Now, where the F is it.

[edit]
As an interesting side topic,while we are waiting for the new strom, someting to share with your friends, click here to see that cars can beat 60 mpg.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...65-mpg-anyone/
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:25 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by wheatwhacker View Post
I have a question, regarding this posting. When Suzuki first introduced the Strom, did they market it as an "adventure" bike "dual sport" or was it supposed to be a just a street/touring bike. I see on their site that they advertise it as a dual sport. It's far from a dual sport. Was this "dual sport" status given to it after people started developing ways of taking it off road?
Great post asking the right questions.

YES .... the dual sport nonsense came later. With the original release of the V-Strom, there was no mention of dual sport or Adventure. In 2002 the Vstrom marketed as "Sport Enduro Tourer" ... but the project leaders at the 2002 intro discouraged any reference to riding the Vstrom in the dirt. I was there. (also, see Burn's comment below ... he was there too)

Here is what John Burns wrote in Motorcyclist about the Vstrom in 2002.

"right, why not appeal to the same set of
fantasies that have made things like Ford Explorers so amazingly
successful? With its relatively light weight and reasonably good
suspension and balance, the V-Strom actually feels like it wouldn't
be too unwieldy off-piste, but in fact Suzuki (American Suzuki, at
least) is careful to not imply in any way, shape, or form that it's a
big dirt bike. Just as well, probably: Just as few sport-utes ever
dirty their tires, it's unlikely that the V-Strom will be a victim of
the type of wanderlust described by its marketeers. What it is,
really, is simply a cosmetic treatment applied to what we used to
refer to as a "standard" bike, an appellation that's sort of the kiss
of death for most buyers: Standard has come to be synonymous with
Boring."

The Vstrom was conceived and designed by Suzuki Germany as an affordable (and reliable) alternative to the R1150GS. American Suzuki rejected this bike but Japan prevailed and forced it on them. Am Suzuki thought it would be another Yam TDM debacle. They, of course, were wrong.

By the time the Wee Strom came along word was getting back to Japan that many owners were riding their DL1000's off road ... and doing well! Who knew!

The Wee was not originally pushed as a dual sport bike either ... but as a lighter less expensive adventure bike. I think it's success surprised them.
I have attended several Suzuki intros and the Japanese are surprised to hear how and where Vstroms (and especially Wee Stroms) are taken off road ... and around the world.

In the last few years they (finally) picked up on the "Adventure" dual sport idea as a marketing tool. But if you ask directly ... they will tell you neither Vstrom are suitable for off road use. Don't ask anyone at American Suzuki ... ask the Japanese directly. Am. Suzuki workers are peons. The Japanese are master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatwhacker View Post
BMW, another "for mucho profit" company, come out with the GS 800. A great bike but way over computerised. Did somebody call them and ask them for a bike that could leave you stranded if the software crashes? Do they even know what "adventure" stands for?
Did anybody ask Kawasaki for that silly fairing on the KLR?
True, and the BMW F800GS seems to have some fairly serious basic design faults and parts sourcing issues. Hopefully manufacturing the bike in Loncin, China will improve the bike ... if they can work out some of the flaws and source better parts/assemblies. I think they can and will sort out the problems ... but BMW's in general too complex and needlessly technical.

Kawasaki not only added a fairing but it appears every single new KLR650 burns oil ... lots of oil My KLR "expert" buddy claims ALL NEW KLR's BURN OIL. I really didn't want to believe this ... but I trust him as he is deeply inside KLR world ... owns three KLR's ... has put 100,000 miles on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheatwhacker View Post
I think Triumph may have nailed it with the 800. A proven motor and you watch, any glitches that come up will be improved upon in the next model.
They are a company watching the market. I need to improve my stable a little bit, so reducing my number of bikes. I was excited about the new vstrom but really, are we going to get anything much better than what we have. The Triumph may not be as good as my 950 off road, but will be better than my current strom. I could easily replace both of these with one bike and unless Suzuki come out with something amazing, I'll be headed to the Triumph dealer.
That's pretty much were I'm at. I've ridden the XC Tiger a couple times now and like it. Never taken it off road. I'm in a wait and see mode. I have high hopes for these new 800's.

But don't count BMW OUT yet. They'll be coming back with a revised F800GS. Suzuki's DL650 Strom will continue to sell and the upgrade and Bold New Graphics will help that ... but as others here have noted ... it may not be an enthusiasts bike any longer. There seem to now be several other better choices.

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Old 06-17-2011, 10:26 PM   #681
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:49 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post

True, and the BMW F800GS seems to have some fairly serious basic design faults and parts sourcing issues. Hopefully manufacturing the bike in Loncin, China will improve the bike ...


But the big question is. When is Loncin going to release theirs?

I want to see what happens in the BMW forums when that happens.

Just like the Suzuki / Hyosung Spats I assume.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:14 PM   #683
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Are you Django Loco?




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Old 06-18-2011, 02:25 AM   #684
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Are you Django Loco?
I remember that guy. Didn't Striking Viking have a huge hatred of him for some reason?
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Old 06-18-2011, 04:39 AM   #685
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Doesn't it look like that front wheel is a 21" instead of the current 19.

Other than that I'm seeing much yet.

Craig
I think you're right! Looks like we're going to have two versions.If you look closely you'll notice there's a lot more ground clearance than the current model.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:26 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by wheatwhacker View Post
Exactly my friend, you picked up a Vee, made by Suzuki for the masses, not just for the chosen few. Made of cheap components, the ones we all complain about, but never complain about the price.

Suzuki will make another bike for the masses, hopefully better and with a pretttier front than the last one, and, hopefully it will be another sucess.
It will still be a cheap bike though, well, it will have to be.
//
I agree that the MSRP will probbly not be a great deal more than it is now.

But it's not really a cheap bike. There is no better engine at any price. The frame is more than rigid enough. An ABS package that increases weight only 7 lbs is the envy of some other manufacturers.

What tipped me from buying a GS was riding a co-workers. I found the 1200 engine to be a lump: plenty of torque but surprising vibration. The ride, though, was really good. Then I found out that the bike I was riding had a full Ohlins suspension upgrade, adding a couple thousand dollars on top of the bike because BMW doesn't do suspensions like anyone else. He also apologized for a pulsation in the brakes that took BMW over a year and three sets of rotors to fix.

So Suzui in my mind made excellent value engineering choices, not skimping on the excellent engine, transmission and clutch (things we take for granted). The things they did skimp on - bars, forks, shock - are relatively easily and cheaply upgraded. Even the much-maligned rear shock was a decent attempt: not many bikes at the time had remotely adjustable spring preload.

I paid $7,250 for a new 09 DL650A. Added Ricor Intiminators (now $300), an Elka 3-way shock ($1,000 group buy) and Sonic springs ($80). That's $8,630 versus around $10K for the BMW F650GS. To be honest the difference in price wasn't the deciding point.

What may be forgotten is the response of other manufacturers to the V-Strom DL650. While the DL1000 was probably considered a swing and a miss", BMW made their 650 an 800, Triumph passed, and KTM doesn't offer a 650 twin.

A month ago I took a BMW F800ST out for a track session at a CSS school. Was it faster than the DL650? Sure - but not by much. We all appreciate low rpm torque but if you want to get on down the road. the DL650 can get the job done. I took my bike out for a track day so I've seen the difference when riding 10/10ths.

A BMW F800GS does 0-60 in 3.95 sec. and 1/4 mi. in 12.20 sec @ 107mph. BMW F650GS [800cc] 12.53 seconds @ 103.75 mph. Triumph 800 does 0-62 in 3.72sec. and 1/4 m in 12.08 sec. @ ?mph.

The DL650 has logged 0-60 times of right around 4 seconds and Sportrider logged a 1/4mi of 12.52s @ 102.0 mph. And that's why BMW and Triumph passed. Because Suzuki makes a brilliant, smooth, reliable engine in huge numbers at low cost that they can never compete with.

So yes, the 800's are faster, and undoubtedly more responsive passing at 65mph+ heavily loaded. But how often has that been a requirement for any of you? Adventure bikes are all pushing a lot of air at speed so none of them feels very responsive anyway: my SV650S feels like a rocket ship in comparison accelerating at highway speed, with the same motor.

If you are a wise-ass you can ask "Why are BMW and Triumph horsepower so much smaller, even though they cost more?" More to the point, why would Suzuki change? They can update the ingredients without changing the cake, and most importantly to them, sell it at a profit.

So I think the new bike will be very similar in concept to the existing bike, with the same [Gladius] engine/transmission package, similar suspension components, etc. I think they will strip some of the plastic off the front to make it smaller, lighter, and less costly.

Doubt the fuel tank will change capacity much if at all, and if so, will be smaller which will make it cheaper, lighter, and easier to package into a narrow front. The F800GS is 5.3 gal and I think the Triumph is 5 so clearly the market isn't demanding more.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:38 AM   #687
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I think you're right! Looks like we're going to have two versions.If you look closely you'll notice there's a lot more ground clearance than the current model.
I'm pretty sure the picture from the front is showing a 19" front. That tire looks like a stock Bridgestone Trailwing, and that tire is only made in a 19".

Lucas
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:28 AM   #688
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Thumb Bravo

To Garandman:

You, my friend, nailed it... Suzuki needs to give us an inexpensive do-it-all bike that we can turn into our dream ride with a few modifications, just make sure the basic package is solid, and we can take it from there.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:41 AM   #689
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In what way? Because Charlie and Ewan rode around the world?
Dude, the market is sport bikes and cruisers. The normal Joe Blog out there has no interest in big dual sports. He either wants to ride fast, cruise slowly, rip up single track or ride around with a T shirt and a beanie to the nearest bar. Then, there are the guys that want to "look" the part, put the boxes on and set their destination to the 4 star hotel in the mountains via the Starbucks mapping system.
Its the same in every sport or hobby.

A friend of mine hiked the PCT last year. 3000 miles over 6 months. He used bog standard equipment that he picked up off Craigslist. Then you see guys and gals in REI buying the latest, lightest most expensive gear for a car camping weekend. Yes, they are rich or have good credit.

The real hard core ADV riders I meet, and I have had many stay in my house while they are passing through, are using cheap motorcycles, purchased used and not caring a crap about the latest and greatest.
One guy called me from OZ last spring, asked me to get him a KLR. I got it for $1,800, he spent another $500 getting it kitted out and the last I heard he was somewhere in Panama. Can you imagine telling some guy in Starbucks that while he's staring out at his touratech covered BMW.

So, my point here is, we have La possier, who would not dirty his butt sitting on a crappy Suzuki, we have the overlanders, who want nothing more than a DR or a KLR, you have the truck your bike to the trail guys, then all the cruiser, harley, crotch rocket guys, the commuter guys and then you have us, the few who want a do it all bike. Yes, we are a special breed, unfortunately, we are a small voice in the small sea of motorcycles.
We asked and got the big DR, the TDM, the transalp but when it came to putting our money down, the bikes were left on the showroom floors, hence, we never got the new transalp, the Africa Twin, the TDM 900, the Tenere 660. I really hope Triumph make a success of this tiger 800, but already I see and hear of a lot sitting on the floors. Triumph have sold a bunch, but, the dealers have them still...
The speculation on the Tiger before it came out had people worried that they could not make them fast enough.

Any bike maker now, has to make the bike appeal to a wide audience, which is why the strom 1 was a huge hit. The price was the main selling point, bang for the buck. Your not going to see Joe the bus driver riding a $13K tiger to work, or a $10K strom with "wire wheels and upgraded suspension" He wants a decent bike for $7-8K, and, Suzuki will give him just that because there are more Joe's on the planet then Ewans and Charlie's.

So, yes I'm excited about the new bike, but not expecting the holy grail of motorcycles to come off of Suzuki's line.
I am not going to debate the La possier versus Real Adventurer issue with you because it's silly (and perhaps a bit self-serving). Really, who cares? The bike manufacturers certainly don't.

The BMW R1200GS has had remarkable world-wide success (I believe it's the best selling model in Europe over 1000cc) leading manufacturers like Yamaha and Triumph to seek part of those sales. The sport bike market is down and America (at least) is seeing a dramatic demographic shift with the baby boomers entering their fifties.

So, I am excited to see what Suzuki has in store for the DL650. Like others have stated, I am hoping for more ground clearance, spoke wheels, and a more attractive look. As a former owner, the windshield, suspension, etc. can be fixed.

Jeff
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Old 06-18-2011, 07:41 PM   #690
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I am not going to debate the La possier versus Real Adventurer issue with you because it's silly (and perhaps a bit self-serving). Really, who cares? The bike manufacturers certainly don't.

The BMW R1200GS has had remarkable world-wide success (I believe it's the best selling model in Europe over 1000cc) leading manufacturers like Yamaha and Triumph to seek part of those sales. The sport bike market is down and America (at least) is seeing a dramatic demographic shift with the baby boomers entering their fifties.

So, I am excited to see what Suzuki has in store for the DL650. Like others have stated, I am hoping for more ground clearance, spoke wheels, and a more attractive look. As a former owner, the windshield, suspension, etc. can be fixed.

Jeff
point of fact, baby boomers were post WWII, call it 45-50. They're entering their 70's. FYI.
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