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Old 07-26-2011, 12:12 PM   #91
Supahflid
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Don't forget who is in charge of R&D and production of Husqvarna. Historically, Germans and Italians have never really been good partners in anything. I do have every hope for these new series of Husqvarna twins ... but have some doubts.

Are current Husky sales strong enough to support a new model? On the Internets everyone cheers and swears they'll buy this trick new 900 Husky. But will they really come through? I seriously doubt it. Many will go into "Wait And See" mode.

The Japanese have been burned by this unreliable, premature false enthusiasm ... and have had several models left standing on showroom floors.

I do agree that ".. ergonomics can be sorted". And this applies to the Tiger too. That's obvious after just ten minutes riding the XC Tiger. The good bones are there ... but BMW/Husky do have Triumph beat on fuel economy.

Think Triumph will be focusing on improving fuel economy in the next update of the 800 series? I'd bet on it.

I recently priced a new 990 Adventure R for an OTD (Out The Door) price.
Had a sit on the bike. What a beauty. I can't touch the ground unless I slide far to one side, then only on one foot on tip toes. Turning around on a narrow dirt trail could be a challenge! Lots of up high weight ... but riding is very good on street.

MSRP for the 2011 990 ADV (with ABS) is $14,999 USD. With tax (about 9%) freight and other charges, estimated OTD price is close to $18,000 USD. The Tiger 800 XC MSRP: $11,000. (add $800 for ABS)

OTD probably about $13,000 usd or so?

Roughly $5000 USD price difference between Tiger 800XC vs. KTM 990-R.
I am new to KTM's, having just bought a 2011 990. Respectfully, I disagree on two of your points: 1) You can negotiate a better deal than you quoted on both the Tiger and 990; the spread might still be close to $5000.00, but I didn't pay nearly $18,000.00 for my KTM and it's a Dakar with a sticker of $15,500.00; 2) the LACK of high up weight in the 990 compared to the Tiger 800XC is exactly why I chose the 990. The 800XC feels a lot like the Tiger 1050 in weight distribution.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:45 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Supahflid View Post
I am new to KTM's, having just bought a 2011 990. Respectfully, I disagree on two of your points: 1) You can negotiate a better deal than you quoted on both the Tiger and 990; the spread might still be close to $5000.00, but I didn't pay nearly $18,000.00 for my KTM and it's a Dakar with a sticker of $15,500.00; 2) the LACK of high up weight in the 990 compared to the Tiger 800XC is exactly why I chose the 990. The 800XC feels a lot like the Tiger 1050 in weight distribution.
There are about 100 new Tiger 800 buyers on the 800 Tiger thread here on ADV and on the UK 800 Tiger board. I've heard of EXACTLY ONE buyer who claims to have got a discount on his Tiger. ONE.

If you have info about dealers who are discounting Tiger 800's ... I'd love to hear it. (and so would dozens of current Tiger 800 shoppers ). Brand new models are rarely discounted by any OEM.

No idea what you got your KTM for ... I guess you guys pay no sales tax down South? My KTM riding buddies paid in the $17K to $18K ballpark for their new 990's. Although there are good deals on nice used ones. (like between $12K to $15K USD)

On top of the price of the bike, some spent another couple grand on accessories at point of sale. How many Add-Ons did you buy when you bought the bike?

Total OTD price after Add-Ons?

To me, the 990 feels bigger and more top heavy than the XC Tiger. But I have not ridden them back to back. That's the real test.

Have you actually ridden the Tiger XC? The KTM is about 3 inches taller than the Tiger at a standstill. Both bikes lighten up once on the move, but to me, the Tiger feels smaller overall than the KTM. Maybe it's the 40 lbs. to 50 lbs. weight difference? I know what a 990 weights ... cause I weighed one.

From the cockpit the 990 feels huge to me. Like a KLR. Big and Wide with lots of dashboard crap in your field of vision. I'm a dirt bike guy and prefer a clean look out front. The Tiger gives more of that.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:21 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
There are about 100 new Tiger 800 buyers on the 800 Tiger thread here on ADV and on the UK 800 Tiger board. I've heard of EXACTLY ONE buyer who claims to have got a discount on his Tiger. ONE.

If you have info about dealers who are discounting Tiger 800's ... I'd love to hear it. (and so would dozens of current Tiger 800 shoppers ). Brand new models are rarely discounted by any OEM.

No idea what you got your KTM for ... I guess you guys pay no sales tax down South? My KTM riding buddies paid in the $17K to $18K ballpark for their new 990's. Although there are good deals on nice used ones. (like between $12K to $15K USD)

On top of the price of the bike, some spent another couple grand on accessories at point of sale. How many Add-Ons did you buy when you bought the bike?

Total OTD price after Add-Ons?

To me, the 990 feels bigger and more top heavy than the XC Tiger. But I have not ridden them back to back. That's the real test.

Have you actually ridden the Tiger XC? The KTM is about 3 inches taller than the Tiger at a standstill. Both bikes lighten up once on the move, but to me, the Tiger feels smaller overall than the KTM. Maybe it's the 40 lbs. to 50 lbs. weight difference? I know what a 990 weights ... cause I weighed one.

From the cockpit the 990 feels huge to me. Like a KLR. Big and Wide with lots of dashboard crap in your field of vision. I'm a dirt bike guy and prefer a clean look out front. The Tiger gives more of that.
Our local Triumph dealer doesn't give much off of MSRP. I bought a brand new Tiger 1050 three or four years ago from him; he did move a little, but not much. I spoke with him a couple of weeks ago about the 800XC after I test rode it, but we did not negotiate. I do not know if he would have been compelled to negotiate the price on them, but I damn sure would have asked for something less than MSRP and depending on his response would have had to decide to pay whatever.

I am not inclined to say publicly (not that you asked me to) what I paid for the KTM. I was merely disagreeing that the OTD price was $18,000.00. Mine wasn't; not even close. Oh and our sales tax is 7%.

Add ons? Oh yeah. I've been on a farkling tear for two days now. Of course I am adding on. Who doesn't? I would be doing the same if I had bought the 800XC.

I rode the 800XC about two weeks ago (there is a post, on this site, with pictures, of me and the bike if you feel the need to confirm the date) and the 990 last Wednesday. Is that close enough to back to back? (I think this is a point not worth arguing about really; I guess I was offering an alternative point of view to your assertion that the 990 was top heavy; apparently "MY" mileage may vary.)

So, yes, I did my homework. In fact, I had been contemplating buying a bike that would combine the Tiger 1050 and the KLR 650. I was waiting for a test ride on the 800XC before I made up mind. To me the 800XC was a lot like the 1050; TOP HEAVY!! Having ridden both the 800XC and the 990, I made my choice and so far I am happy with it.

As you said, you came from a dirt background. I didn't. As always, YMMV. Oh, and peace bro, I ain't trying to get your ire up!!!!!
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:29 PM   #94
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No worries! The 990 is a great bike! Congrats on your new bike, hope it all goes well.

I have a 1050 Tiger also. It is a bit top heavy ... but I just didn't feel that as much on the XC, but it's lower and lighter, so maybe that was part of my perception.

One thing is clear: The KTM has a lot more immediate power on tap right off the bottom. The XC is soft down low by comparison but has a nice hit up the rev range; 180 degree different riding experience. Handling very different as well from what I remember of the 990. I like them both, could be happy with either.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:50 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
No idea what you got your KTM for ... I guess you guys pay no sales tax down South?
The only apples to apples way to compare price is OTD; WITHOUT TAX. It seems people either give total OTD (which has taxes) or negotiated price before fees and taxes. I paid xx,xxx OTD before sales tax is clear... I paid xx,xxx OTD tells me nothing unless I look up where you live and what the rate is, ask what your trade in was if you had one, if that affected tax rates, etc.

The Triumph dealer here adds in some sizeable fees like delivery, prep, etc. and it was pretty clear if I negotiated down to MSRP OTD before taxes I would be doing well. People like to brag that they got a good deal and they only paid say $14k for a $15k bike, but they neglect the $1500 in fees the dealer adds on... I think they must rely on this for income, especially for people that finance and are more concerned about the payment than the actual price. Not saying anyone here does this, just saying both price before taxes and fees, and total price including taxes and fees are useless since the fees and the taxes vary greatly... just take out taxes and then it is meaningful.

FWIW in NC you pay 3% tax on the sale and 1-2%(depending on where you live a combination of state, county, and city rates) of the value* ANNUALLY.
* this value is determined by the DMV to make KBB used dealer retail appear a bargain

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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
On top of the price of the bike, some spent another couple grand on accessories at point of sale. How many Add-Ons did you buy when you bought the bike?

Total OTD price after Add-Ons?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
To me, the 990 feels bigger and more top heavy than the XC Tiger. But I have not ridden them back to back. That's the real test.

Have you actually ridden the Tiger XC? The KTM is about 3 inches taller than the Tiger at a standstill. Both bikes lighten up once on the move, but to me, the Tiger feels smaller overall than the KTM. Maybe it's the 40 lbs. to 50 lbs. weight difference? I know what a 990 weights ... cause I weighed one.
The Tiger you sit "in" the KTM you sit "on" (at least the 950SE you do). That is actually part of what I hated about the Tiger as it seemed like a sport bike and I couldn't move around, but it is a personal preference and if you have shorter legs it is a definite plus for the Tiger.

40-50lb weight difference? Which one is lighter? Realistically aren't they both in spitting distance of 500lbs fully gassed up? OK to be consistent as above only give the KTM 5 gals of fuel...and then limit the HP to 90... and then give up suspension travel and adjustment... and....
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:56 PM   #96
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The only apples to apples way to compare price is OTD; WITHOUT TAX. It seems people either give total OTD (which has taxes) or negotiated price before fees and taxes. I paid xx,xxx OTD before sales tax is clear... I paid xx,xxx OTD tells me nothing unless I look up where you live and what the rate is, ask what your trade in was if you had one, if that affected tax rates, etc.

The Triumph dealer here adds in some sizeable fees like delivery, prep, etc. and it was pretty clear if I negotiated down to MSRP OTD before taxes I would be doing well. People like to brag that they got a good deal and they only paid say $14k for a $15k bike, but they neglect the $1500 in fees the dealer adds on... I think they must rely on this for income, especially for people that finance and are more concerned about the payment than the actual price. Not saying anyone here does this, just saying both price before taxes and fees, and total price including taxes and fees are useless since the fees and the taxes vary greatly... just take out taxes and then it is meaningful.

FWIW in NC you pay 3% tax on the sale and 1-2%(depending on where you live a combination of state, county, and city rates) of the value* ANNUALLY.
* this value is determined by the DMV to make KBB used dealer retail appear a bargain



Precisely. I negotiate OTD pricing INCLUDING tax, title, license and whatever goofy ass fees the dealer wants to charge. I'm not saying I got the best deal in the world, but the dealer did negotiate with me. Maybe sales are more brisk where ADVGrifter is from and the dealers there aren't inclined to sell for anything less than MSRP plus other fees.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:58 PM   #97
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No worries! The 990 is a great bike! Congrats on your new bike, hope it all goes well.

I have a 1050 Tiger also. It is a bit top heavy ... but I just didn't feel that as much on the XC, but it's lower and lighter, so maybe that was part of my perception.

One thing is clear: The KTM has a lot more immediate power on tap right off the bottom. The XC is soft down low by comparison but has a nice hit up the rev range; 180 degree different riding experience. Handling very different as well from what I remember of the 990. I like them both, could be happy with either.
I could see me on the 800XC, but the first big problem I had with it was the same as with the 1050; I was jammed up in to the tank! I really tried to make the 1050 more comfortable, but after three or four year, I just was ready to move on!

I too hope you enjoy the 800XC! I think Triumphs are great bikes!
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:22 AM   #98
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One thing that makes the Tiger 800 a real attractive alternative over the 800 GS, well over here the Triumph motors are synonymous for bullet proof reliability and longevity. Not something I could say about the Rotax twin.
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
No idea what you got your KTM for ... I guess you guys pay no sales tax down South? My KTM riding buddies paid in the $17K to $18K ballpark for their new 990's. Although there are good deals on nice used ones. (like between $12K to $15K USD)

On top of the price of the bike, some spent another couple grand on accessories at point of sale. How many Add-Ons did you buy when you bought the bike?

Total OTD price after Add-Ons?

To me, the 990 feels bigger and more top heavy than the XC Tiger. But I have not ridden them back to back. That's the real test.

Have you actually ridden the Tiger XC? The KTM is about 3 inches taller than the Tiger at a standstill. Both bikes lighten up once on the move, but to me, the Tiger feels smaller overall than the KTM. Maybe it's the 40 lbs. to 50 lbs. weight difference? I know what a 990 weights ... cause I weighed one.

From the cockpit the 990 feels huge to me. Like a KLR. Big and Wide with lots of dashboard crap in your field of vision. I'm a dirt bike guy and prefer a clean look out front. The Tiger gives more of that.
Just to add my 2 cents since I just shopped these two bikes. Background: I've owned both Triumph's (2005 Speed Triple) and KTM's (2005 950 ADV). Not that this makes me any kind of authority, but it does show that I have no crazy level of brand loyalty.

Anywho, the Tiger XC is definitely not three inches lower than a new (2011) 990R, even with the seat set in the lowest position. More like 1.9" to 1.1", depending on the seat setting of the Tiger. A standard 990 ADV has a nearly identical seat height as an 800XC, give or take a few t tenths.

Triumph did feel lighter, but certainly not by 40-50 lbs. I think the real weight diff. is closer to 20 lbs.

As for seating position and feel from the cockpit, I got the exact opposite feeling by sitting on the Tiger. It felt like everything was too high and too far out. The tank wraps around the top part of your legs like a sportbike, and the bars have a pulled-back, tiller feel to them. I suppose they could be rolled forward, but then they would be too far out for my stubby little arms. Also, as other guys have said, the seat on the Tiger kind of locks you into one riding position. As least, it felt that way to me on my test ride. Ergonomics is definitely something that I preferred on the KTM. The KTM feels far more dirtbike-esque in the saddle, IMHO.

Riding the Tiger, I liked it. I really liked it. Great motor, great ride, probably a better long-distance bike than the KTM, but also not nearly as fun. (Here's where you figure out where I went with this purchase!). After lots of back and forth, in the end, I decided to go back to a KTM. Bought a Dakar. Picking it up in about two hours.

In terms of pricing, there really isn't $5000 in difference, at least right now. Tiger's are a hot commodity and my dealer isn't dealing at all. And 800XC with ABS is gonna run right at MSRP right now ($11,800). Add in $600-900 in sales tax, plus another $500 or so in dealer fees, title fees, etc..., and you're just above $13,000, OTD.

I paid $15,100 for my Dakar, OTD, with all taxes and fees included. Then I got some Gobi's and mounting rack (far superior, IMHO, than the Triumph factory luggage), for half off using a KTM VIP card I got for doing a test ride.

So $15,600 for the Dakar model plus luggage. The Triumph, with factory luggage, would have been over $14,000, I believe. So the real-world difference, right now, is closer to $1500-2500, depending on the deal you get, taxes, etc...

Both bikes are ridiculously good, and both will have their passionate fan bases. I'm sure I'll wonder what owning a Tiger would have been like, but for now, I just wanna ride my KTM!!
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:46 AM   #100
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Just to add my 2 cents since I just shopped these two bikes. Background: I've owned both Triumph's (2005 Speed Triple) and KTM's (2005 950 ADV). Not that this makes me any kind of authority, but it does show that I have no crazy level of brand loyalty.

Anywho, the Tiger XC is definitely not three inches lower than a new (2011) 990R, even with the seat set in the lowest position. More like 1.9" to 1.1", depending on the seat setting of the Tiger. A standard 990 ADV has a nearly identical seat height as an 800XC, give or take a few t tenths.

Triumph did feel lighter, but certainly not by 40-50 lbs. I think the real weight diff. is closer to 20 lbs.

As for seating position and feel from the cockpit, I got the exact opposite feeling by sitting on the Tiger. It felt like everything was too high and too far out. The tank wraps around the top part of your legs like a sportbike, and the bars have a pulled-back, tiller feel to them. I suppose they could be rolled forward, but then they would be too far out for my stubby little arms. Also, as other guys have said, the seat on the Tiger kind of locks you into one riding position. As least, it felt that way to me on my test ride. Ergonomics is definitely something that I preferred on the KTM. The KTM feels far more dirtbike-esque in the saddle, IMHO.

Riding the Tiger, I liked it. I really liked it. Great motor, great ride, probably a better long-distance bike than the KTM, but also not nearly as fun. (Here's where you figure out where I went with this purchase!). After lots of back and forth, in the end, I decided to go back to a KTM. Bought a Dakar. Picking it up in about two hours.

In terms of pricing, there really isn't $5000 in difference, at least right now. Tiger's are a hot commodity and my dealer isn't dealing at all. And 800XC with ABS is gonna run right at MSRP right now ($11,800). Add in $600-900 in sales tax, plus another $500 or so in dealer fees, title fees, etc..., and you're just above $13,000, OTD.

I paid $15,100 for my Dakar, OTD, with all taxes and fees included. Then I got some Gobi's and mounting rack (far superior, IMHO, than the Triumph factory luggage), for half off using a KTM VIP card I got for doing a test ride.

So $15,600 for the Dakar model plus luggage. The Triumph, with factory luggage, would have been over $14,000, I believe. So the real-world difference, right now, is closer to $1500-2500, depending on the deal you get, taxes, etc...

Both bikes are ridiculously good, and both will have their passionate fan bases. I'm sure I'll wonder what owning a Tiger would have been like, but for now, I just wanna ride my KTM!!
Good observations and it sounds like you got a really good deal! I just think the KTM is the shiznizzy! One piece of advice: if your dealer is like mine, they don't keep a lot of parts in stock for this bike. I need to do the first oil change, but I had to order the screens and filters; they won't be here until next week, so there she sits all lonely and unused! Go ahead and order your oil filters!
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:57 AM   #101
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Thanks, Supa. Good advice on the screens and filters. I think my local dealer is pretty well stocked, but I'll keep it in mind. And I wouldn't worry about going a little over the 600 mile rec's for first service. Shouldn't hurt anything.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:52 AM   #102
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Thanks, Supa. Good advice on the screens and filters. I think my local dealer is pretty well stocked, but I'll keep it in mind. And I wouldn't worry about going a little over the 600 mile rec's for first service. Shouldn't hurt anything.
Good deal; maybe I should ride to your dealer to get my filters from now on!
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:46 PM   #103
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When comparing prices, remember there are a shitload of leftover KTMs sitting on dealer floors right now and killer deals can be had. I picked up my 2010 990 SMT (MSRP 14K) for 11K selling price, 12.5K OTD after TTL (the tax in Scottsdale, AZ where I bought it is pretty high).

Not likely a brand new model like the new Tigers will be so heavily discounted. This closes the price gap by a bit. Seriously, if you want a KTM street model, it's a great time to buy one.
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #104
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Here, see both bikes in action, a descent from the Alps, I'm with the Adv of course...About 150lb extra load on the back (think of it like 2 up) that made my front quite light. I didn't find it particularly difficult to keep up with the Triumph rider and he was quite nimble at the time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVAly0J1eg

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Old 08-11-2011, 04:44 AM   #105
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[FONT=Verdana]
As for slow traction and control, sorry Blacktiger you are not speaking from experience, my 950SE is so composed and well balanced at low speeds it lulls you into thinking the bike is 100kg less than it actually is, first gear no clutch it pulls like a train from 1500rpm, you've just got to be gentle with the throttle. The torque has pulled me out of sticky situation where a CR450 has just spun up trying to find traction, I sure in these circumstances that extra 100kg actually helps.
Fair enough as the only time I've done real miles on a 950 was when I rented one in the US. It only lasted two days before the radiator split. Did about 40 miles on dirt during those two days. I'm just trying to get across that there's not many bikes out there with the smooth flexibility of a Triumph triple.
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