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Old 07-23-2011, 07:31 AM   #31
trackhead
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Good stuff Hick.

I too have taken a liking to composites. My latest project is a fiberglass camper on my Samurai. It's a ridiculous amount of work, but it's coming along.........slowly.


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Old 07-24-2011, 03:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
This is the kind of post that keeps me here.

I'll be using a lot of info from this if I decide to make a new tank for my Buell.

I used to build racing sailboats but that was years ago when I was a teenager. This refresher was great.

Have you researched what kind of sealer would be needed to make something ethanol proof?
I use this stuff..... Good enough to make the entire tank .....without sealing.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/GASOLINE-RESISTA...item483a8b15ec


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Old 07-24-2011, 07:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I use this stuff..... Good enough to make the entire tank .....without sealing.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/GASOLINE-RESISTA...item483a8b15ec


Erling

You have made my day. I bought some of that to make a tank...haven't heard anything from anyone but it looked promising and to hear from someone else's experience makes me want to
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:24 PM   #34
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Trackhead, I like the camper setup! I thought of making something simular for the back of a mini van. Very good info given out here. That is what I like most about this site.
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:02 PM   #35
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simple ? question....

I have an old set of Enduro sidebags, they're plastic, with gloss black finish.....One of them has a pretty good sized hole on the inside corner that I need to patch. I was thinking of just using fiberglass matt with resin both inside and outside the hole. Last time I tried to use fiberglass on a different project, it dried too quickly, and was so rough I could hardly even sand it....Probably a bit too elementary for this thread, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

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Old 07-25-2011, 05:55 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by flemsmith View Post
I have an old set of Enduro sidebags, they're plastic, with gloss black finish.....One of them has a pretty good sized hole on the inside corner that I need to patch. I was thinking of just using fiberglass matt with resin both inside and outside the hole. Last time I tried to use fiberglass on a different project, it dried too quickly, and was so rough I could hardly even sand it....Probably a bit too elementary for this thread, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

roy
The simplest, least expensive, way I can think of doing this would be:
Clean the plastic with acetone (or nail polish remover if that is more handy).
Sand both side of the plastic with 60-grit so it will hold the resin better.
Buy fiberglass mat and some resin with hardener from your local home depot.
Assuming the hole is about the size of a quarter, tear the fiberglass mat into pieces about the size of a bagel. If the hole is larger, make the fiberglass appropriately larger. The more frayed the edges of the mat, the easier it is to apply resin later.
Since the hole is on the inside corner, I would try taping aluminum foil to the outside. Tape the aluminum foil tight across the hole - the idea here is that as you apply resin from the inside, the aluminum foil creates a temporary barrier to prevent excess seepage, and also a mold. Waxing the side of the foil that will be in contact with the resin will make it much easier to remove later. 2 to 3 coats of auto wax should suffice. Another thing you could use as a barrier is modeler's clay - I recommend Plasticine. For a project this small, you can get enough from your local hobby shop for a couple of bucks. The more I think on it, the more I think Plasticine is the way to go on this project.
Mix up a small amount of resin and hardener (most polyester resins and MEKP use a ratio of 1 part resin to .008 parts hardener - for 100 mL resin, you add 0.8 mL of hardener). In the heat of the summer, I would only mix up about 100 mL (3.33 oz) at a time. I can't imagine that you would need more than 200-300 mL for this project. It's a good idea to have the resin pre-measured in 50 - 100 mL aliquots prior to starting. If you can have both the resin and MEKP pre-measured, but not mixed, even better. The "pot-life" of the resin/MEKP is amount of time the resin stays liquid after adding MEKP. In Arizona, in a garage without air-conditioning, you may only have 2-5 minutes of pot life before your resin begins to gel, and you need to mix more resin.
Plastic forks/spoons/knives can be used to mix the resin and MEKP, then thrown away.
Remember to be in a well ventilated area, or use a respirator.
Use Latex or Nitrile gloves that are a size larger than you would normally wear. Put on 2 to 3 pairs atop each other.
Using a disposable paint brush (don't use those foam brushes), dab on a layer of resin onto the plastic. It will likely "fisheye" - meaning it won't remain a uniform thickness, and will have round/oval areas that look like they have no resin whatsoever. Don't worry about this.
Put on your first layer of FG mat, use the paint brush to dab on more resin - use the paintbrush to push the resin into the mat. Repeat this process for 4-5 layers. As you are doing the layering, the resin and FG will start sticking to your gloves. When your hand starts to look like a cactus, just remove the outermost glove and you have a clean slate again.
Allow the resin to dry to a tack, then remove the barrier (aluminum or modeling clay) on the outside of the pannier, and repeat the layering process on the outside of the pannier. If you use Plasticine, you should expect that the heat of the resin/MEKP reaction will make the clay softer and gooier. Be prepared with a set of tweezers to dig out residual clay that settles into depressions.
Allow 2-3 days to fully cure, then sand down to smoothness. A rattle can of gloss black, plastic-adherent, spray paint should be enough to make it look acceptable.
Finally, please post a write-up and pictures of your experience.
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HickOnACrick screwed with this post 07-25-2011 at 06:17 AM
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:19 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by trackhead View Post
Good stuff Hick.

I too have taken a liking to composites. My latest project is a fiberglass camper on my Samurai. It's a ridiculous amount of work, but it's coming along.........slowly.


Hey Crackatrackus, how about some pictures of your KTM panniers? Even better, why not post a write-up on how you made them?
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:16 PM   #38
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Wow...thanks!

.....That's some great sounding advice on my saddlebags....since I'm in the middle of rewiring the bike now, I suspect it'll be sometime this winter before I tackle that. Meanwhile I'm printing out your advice for safekeeping....I might even be able to do this!

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:30 PM   #39
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If the plastic saddlebags are ABS plastic, you should be able to repair the hole with an ABS repair kit.
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:19 PM   #40
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hey can i play too. i am a first time "compositeer". is that a word?. i just went out and bought some of my materials today. i am using polymerproducts epoxy/resin. i just went to there facility today and got a grand tour from the owner/chemist. he was a super cool dude. i spent about 2 hours with him. that man is CRAZY about resin. i was impressed with the lab. their facility is in an unmarked building in the middle of the industrial side of town. about twenty minutes from my house. huge place.....with about half of the building dedicated to the lab and r&d. they have been there for 19 years he said.

anyways...... i am an inmate here and mostly hang out in the orange crush. but i think my first try at this will be a car part. so i totally understand if you guys dont want to here about it. to me parts is parts......the part i have chosen is a pretty simple shape.... thats why i chose it rather than an mc part. but i wonder if i should just lurk for awhile since i really have no idea what im doing. seems like you guys have a lot of experience ant i dont want to clutter the thread.

really just wanted to introduce myself and let you guys know im stoked on this new frontier for me.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:17 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by twodollardoug View Post
hey can i play too. i am a first time "compositeer". is that a word?. i just went out and bought some of my materials today. i am using polymerproducts epoxy/resin. i just went to there facility today and got a grand tour from the owner/chemist. he was a super cool dude. i spent about 2 hours with him. that man is CRAZY about resin. i was impressed with the lab. their facility is in an unmarked building in the middle of the industrial side of town. about twenty minutes from my house. huge place.....with about half of the building dedicated to the lab and r&d. they have been there for 19 years he said.

anyways...... i am an inmate here and mostly hang out in the orange crush. but i think my first try at this will be a car part. so i totally understand if you guys dont want to here about it. to me parts is parts......the part i have chosen is a pretty simple shape.... thats why i chose it rather than an mc part. but i wonder if i should just lurk for awhile since i really have no idea what im doing. seems like you guys have a lot of experience ant i dont want to clutter the thread.

really just wanted to introduce myself and let you guys know im stoked on this new frontier for me.
Welcome aboard - please feel free to post any knowledge you gain building whatever part(s) you build.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:47 PM   #42
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Vacuum bagging

Vacuum bagging - kinda sounds like the latest West Hollywood fad, but for the DIY Compositeer, it is a method to creating a strong, lightweight, and cosmetically appealing composite part. More information and another video here.

Some background information and terms:

Vacuum pumps generate vacuum, plain and simple. They vary in price from about $100 dollars to hundreds of dollars for a non-industrial pump. In addition to the pump, one also needs the hose, brass fittings, and the connection for the bag. I bought all of the above (with the exception of the connector) at harbor freight for a fraction of the price, and have been satisfied so far. One can also use an air compressor to generate vacuum (Venturi principle), but I have no experience with this method.

Peel Ply is a cloth-like substance that will not adhere to epoxy or polyester resin. It is used to separate the layer of CF and resin from the bleeder/breather cloth. It is disposable.

Bleeder/breather cloth is a thick, spongy, fabric that is used to suck up and hold excess resin during the vacuum bagging process. It is also disposable.

Sealant tape is a very tacky, double-sided, elastic tape used to tape the vacuum bag film to the mold. It is also disposed of after a single use. It is best to buy tape in the winter. In the summer, the tapes will melt together when shipped, especially when one buys multiple rolls. The best thing is to find a local supplier so you know your money isn't wasted on gummed-up tape.

Vacuum bag film is a stretchy elastic film that actually contains the vacuum within a specified area. If you are careful, this can be re-used a few times. Be advised that different films are designed for different resins. An epoxy resin uses a different film than a polyester resin.

Core mat is a marginally thick, very lightweight, polyester fabric that can be used to add thickness and stiffness to a composite part. It is sandwiched between layers of CF, Kevlar, or fiberglass as the piece is layered. I don't think it contributes to the overall strength of the composite part, but since most non-aeronautical parts don't need the optimal strength composites offer, one can use core mat to add stiffness and thickness, for a fraction of the cost. By using core mat, I can make parts with 4 layers of CF, that would normally take 8-10 layers to get the same thickness and stiffness. There are a variety of core materials than can be used depending on the function you need from your final part.

Here is a project I did this afternoon:

I began by applying wax to my mold:


Using a HVLP air gun, I applied 3 layers of PVA. While that was drying, and cooling down next to the air-conditioner, I readied my supplies:

1. 3-4 pairs of latex gloves
2. 600 mL of polyester resin, separated into 200 mL aliquots, with MEKP pre-measured in a syringe
3. 4 layers of CF. I used paper to create a pattern pf the mold, so I would not use excess CF.
4. 2 layers of core mat, again cut according to the pattern.
5. 1 layer of peel ply, cut to the pattern
6. 3 layers of bleeder/breather fabric, cut to the pattern
7. Sealant tape applied to the mold, with the paper backing still adhered to the up-side.
8. 1 layer of vacuum bag film cut to the shape of the perimeter of the mold.
9. Make sure the vacuum pump is working, the hoses are leak-free, and the connector is clean and ready to use.



Some pitfalls to avoid:

1. Cut the peel ply 2-3 inches wider than the perimeter of the CF
2. Cut the bleeder/breather fabric the same size or smaller than the CF

3. If you need to layer the core mat over complex shapes, it may need to be cut in a way to facilitate this, as it does not drape over curves easily.

4. Triple or quadruple glove before you begin so as one set of gloves gets sticky, you just pull them off and your next pair is already on your hands.
5. Pre-measure the resin and MEKP into small aliquots, especially when the ambient temperature is above 70-degrees. When it's hot, the pot-life of the resin/hardener is greatly diminished.

The process is:
1. after adding the MEKP to the resin, quickly apply a layer to the PVA-ed mold
2. Add your first layer of CF - this is the cosmetically critical layer - try and make it as neat as possible, use a chip brush to push the resin into the CF - be quick about it, but this is the layer that demands a bit more time and attention
3. Add the second layer of CF. Add more resin and dab on more resin with the chip brush. Quickly. Mix more resin/MEKP.
4. Now I add a layer of core mat, with more resin, mix more resin/MEKP
5. One more layer of CF and resin
6. Another layer of core mat, with resin, mix more resin/MEKP
7. Last layer of CF, with resin

8. Cover with peel ply - you want all the CF covered with peel ply, as close to the sealant tape as possible. If you can avoid folds and wrinkles, the inside of your part will look nicer, but many times this is unavoidable.
9. Add the layers of bleeder/breather fabric. The B/B fabric should not extend beyond the perimeter of the peel-ply otherwise it will stick to the CF and make a mess later. Another pearl of wisdom: when the vacuum connector is added, it should sit atop 4-6 layers of B/B fabric (just use small pieces), and their should be a pathway of B/B fabric all the way to the main part, so the air has a pathway through the B/B fabric, to the vacuum. Piling up layers of B/B under the vacuum connector will prevent excess resin from entering your vacuum hose and destroying your vacuum.

In the photo below, directly under the vacuum connector are 6 layers of B/B fabric that are about 4 inches square. The remainder constitutes 2-3 layer of B/B fabric that were cut to the template of CF.



10. Remove the backing from the sealant tape, cover the whole thing with vacuum bag film, attach your vacuum connector, and start your vacuum. You will likely have some leaks that need addressed around the sealant tape, and often around the connector as well. Use extra sealant tape to fix the leaks. Optimally, you want the vacuum applied before the resin begins to gel, so excess resin (and therefore excess weight) are sucked into the B/B fabric. Speed is of the essence.

I keep the part under vacuum overnight, then let it cure for another day before removing from the mold.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:50 PM   #43
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great write up on vacuum bagging hick. it looks like i could almost tackle it. i my try the venturie instead of the pump. i have a huge 2 stage 5 hp 240v. compressor. and no dough for a pump.......but that is another day.

im getting started on my plugs, but before i go any further......is it cool to use 2 plugs for a single mold?

in case anybody is wondering what these are.....they are rain hats for dual weber idf 40/44 carburetors.
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Old 07-31-2011, 04:41 PM   #44
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Mold making question

I have an odd question. Maybe someone here knows the answer. I made a mold yesterday from a painted part. The part was a buildup of various materials and then primed. The part was properly waxed and covered with PVA. I surrounded the part with standard non-hardening, oil-based modeling clay and then painted on orange tooling gelcoat.

First, the gelcoat slides off of the clay. Is there a better solution?

Second, the paint on my model part deteriorated during the molding process and stuck to the gelcoat. I was able to peel away the bad paint, but the gelcoat was not perfect because of this. I'm not sure what was reacting to cause the paint to do that. It's a chemical reaction causing the problem and not just related to heat.

Thanks for any help.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:37 PM   #45
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I had the same thing. The plasticine I used for the flanging caused alligatoring on the gelcoat. I 'lined' the plasticine with playing cards after that which solved it. But I use 3M spray body filler to fill the minor imperfections on my plug and this also reacted (not everywhere though) with the gelcoat the same way the paint with Orangecicle did.

I was hoping that PVA would create enough of a barrier but it sounds like it may not. Interested in the expert oppinions here. Dealing with product compatibility is turning into a real headache.
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