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Old 08-01-2011, 06:07 AM   #46
HickOnACrick OP
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I have an odd question. Maybe someone here knows the answer. I made a mold yesterday from a painted part. The part was a buildup of various materials and then primed. The part was properly waxed and covered with PVA. I surrounded the part with standard non-hardening, oil-based modeling clay and then painted on orange tooling gelcoat.

First, the gelcoat slides off of the clay. Is there a better solution?

Second, the paint on my model part deteriorated during the molding process and stuck to the gelcoat. I was able to peel away the bad paint, but the gelcoat was not perfect because of this. I'm not sure what was reacting to cause the paint to do that. It's a chemical reaction causing the problem and not just related to heat.

Thanks for any help.
After wasting many hours and dollars with gelcoat(s), I have thrown in the towel. I got fed up with the smell, the cost, the way it melts everything it touches, it's tendency to crack when drying, etc, etc, etc.

I now just use West System Epoxy and fiberglass to make my molds. I crank out molds in a fraction of the time, and overall, I am saving money because I have much less waste. The epoxy doesn't melt everything it touches so it opens the door for a variety of media for making plugs.

I LOVE the idea of playing cards...that is brilliant and will find its way into a future project for me.
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Old 08-01-2011, 03:05 PM   #47
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No worries. Wish I could say it's mine, but found it suggested somewhere else on a random composites forum. Forums are everywhere. Doing flanging on complex curves sucks, so although it's difficult to cut the card in the exact curve it's close enough. The overlap between cards can serve as location dowels a bit as well.

I've thought about ditching gelcoat as well, but was suggested not to because pinholes may be introduced. Are there no less aggressive maybe epoxy based gelcoats?
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:06 PM   #48
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because pinholes may be introduced
I have made 2 molds from epoxy recently, and pinholes weren't an issue, but I did have a number of craters that I had to wet-sand out. After my recent successes with the epoxy methods I have outlined, and all the failures filling my dumpster from gelcoat debacles, I don't see myself ever using gelcoat again.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:48 PM   #49
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Fair enough. I'm undecided on it still for the faux tank I'm building. Although the more I think about it the more I think I'll stop using it as well. Got to sand the gelcoat when it reacts anyway, and I'm painting my jobs anyway.

How big are those 'craters' in size and depth/ height?
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:28 PM   #50
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Fair enough. I'm undecided on it still for the faux tank I'm building. Although the more I think about it the more I think I'll stop using it as well. Got to sand the gelcoat when it reacts anyway, and I'm painting my jobs anyway.

How big are those 'craters' in size and depth/ height?

Craters were small, the size of pinheads. I couldn't see them, but could feel them. They wet-sanded out without any difficulty.
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Old 08-04-2011, 04:46 AM   #51
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CF Heat Shield

I was finally able to pull a decent CF part from my heat shield mold. I made this part in five layers of 2X2 twill. It's fine, but it does get a bit flexible when heated by the exhaust. Maybe seven layers next time:


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Old 08-04-2011, 07:39 AM   #52
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I was finally able to pull a decent CF part from my heat shield mold. I made this part in five layers of 2X2 twill. It's fine, but it does get a bit flexible when heated by the exhaust. Maybe seven layers next time:


That came out really nice. How did you resolve the issues with your mold?
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:22 AM   #53
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That came out really nice. How did you resolve the issues with your mold?
The mold isn't perfect, and the surface of the part shows it a little as well. I wetsanded the mold as far as I could (through the gel coat in a couple of places). Then I waxed the crap out of it to help fill the voids. I did three coats of PVA painted on with a brush before I started molding. In the end, the part is not absolutely perfect, but the imperfects aren't really that visible. I could also wetsand the part and coat the top of it with more epoxy if I wanted to. What I care most about is a part that actually performs. So far, this thing does the job of getting rid of all that heat on the leg. I've melted or burned numerous pairs of pants with the original metal heat shield, but that's not a concern anymore.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:52 PM   #54
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What did you lay up the mould onto? I'll have to do some insitu laying up on the bike in difficult areas, and am wondering about effective ways to keep the resin dripping into the small hard to get to areas around the motor.
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:17 PM   #55
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What did you lay up the mould onto? I'll have to do some insitu laying up on the bike in difficult areas, and am wondering about effective ways to keep the resin dripping into the small hard to get to areas around the motor.
I molded directly on my bike originally. In my mind you pretty much have to start by taping off areas of the bike that could be damaged by the epoxy and then just start working from there with whatever product works. I used tape and fiberglass to make my initial shapes. But, my initial heat shield was first molded with non-hardening modeling clay. That first heat shield didn't work out so great, so I used it as part of the mold for the second heat shield -- literally holding it in place with tape while the new fiberglass cured. After I had the basic part captured in fiberglass, it was just a matter of building up the shape as desired. I used bondo and other products to get the part as I wanted it to look on the outside, paying close attention to the edges. You don't want to build up the edges. After bondo, treat it like any car part -- primer, sand, primer, sand, primer, paint. Watch out using too much of any product in one application. I put too much bondo on to fill a gap at one point, and that warped the part.

Once you have the part you want, you need to lay the part out on a board to create the mold. There are some really good examples of how to do that on You Tube. Just search for things like "carbon fiber mold" or "how to make a mold for carbon fiber."
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:05 PM   #56
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What did you lay up the mould onto? I'll have to do some insitu laying up on the bike in difficult areas, and am wondering about effective ways to keep the resin dripping into the small hard to get to areas around the motor.
I know I sound like a broken record when it comes to Epoxy, but you could lay up some fiberglass with epoxy - say 1-2 sheets thick. Once it is dry, hold the smooth area over your difficult areas, then apply a heat gun. One of the properties of the epoxy is it softens when heated. While it's hot, use a gloved hand to mold it around. You might be able make an in situ mold in this way. If it doesn't work, you wouldn't be out that much time or money.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:12 PM   #57
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I was finally able to pull a decent CF part from my heat shield mold. I made this part in five layers of 2X2 twill. It's fine, but it does get a bit flexible when heated by the exhaust. Maybe seven layers next time:


have you seen this high temp resin? suppose to be good to 400 degrees....has to be heat cured to 200 degrees tho. http://cgi.ebay.com/EPOXY-RESIN-HIGH...item483836807f

or what about laying kevlar for your final layer.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:42 PM   #58
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have you seen this high temp resin? suppose to be good to 400 degrees....has to be heat cured to 200 degrees tho. http://cgi.ebay.com/EPOXY-RESIN-HIGH...item483836807f

or what about laying kevlar for your final layer.
I can hear it now.

My wife: "Honey, what the #$%^&* are you cooking in the oven?"
Me: "Uh. It's, uh. Well, carbon fiber."
My wife: "Are you %$^&* kidding me?"



I read that Kevlar has a lower temp capacity than carbon, so I went with carbon throughout. I did think that one solution might be to layer the inside of the part with heat resistant tape. I can say that I rode down the interstate on the way home tonight. I didn't wear gloves on the way home. The five-layer shield was only warm to the touch at the first light I came across. The stock shield would have been melting my pants. The shield does heat up when sitting in traffic, but I think anything would. Still, it's not NEARLY as hot as stock.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:46 PM   #59
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I can hear it now.

My wife: "Honey, what the #$%^&* are you cooking in the oven?"
Me: "Uh. It's, uh. Well, carbon fiber."
My wife: "Are you %$^&* kidding me?"



I read that Kevlar has a lower temp capacity than carbon, so I went with carbon throughout. I did think that one solution might be to layer the inside of the part with heat resistant tape. I can say that I rode down the interstate on the way home tonight. I didn't wear gloves on the way home. The five-layer shield was only warm to the touch at the first light I came across. The stock shield would have been melting my pants. The shield does heat up when sitting in traffic, but I think anything would. Still, it's not NEARLY as hot as stock.
right....i got an old electric oven for powder coating....so i guess i forgot not everbody has one.....but from the info about the resin, heat lamps can be used. i plan on using heat lamps myself. it only has to be cured at 200 degrees.

i havnt read that about kevlar could you post up a link? it might keep us from using it in places we shouldnt....

maybe over time your heat shield will harden up.... i powder coated mine. and it seams like the first couple heat cycles the powder coating softend a little. but know its rock hard.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:28 AM   #60
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i havnt read that about kevlar could you post up a link? it might keep us from using it in places we shouldnt.....
http://www.intexa.com/downloads/hightemp.pdf

This is what I looked at. It suggested that Kevlar was good up to a continuous operating temperature of 375 degrees Fahrenheit, and carbon fiber was good up to a continuous operating temp of 570 to 1000 degrees. I made my heat shield out of CF because of this article.

"I found it on the Internet, so it must be true."
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Orangecicle screwed with this post 08-05-2011 at 04:37 AM
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