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Old 11-11-2011, 10:43 PM   #106
redprimo
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Originally Posted by HickOnACrick View Post
Cool. Thanks for clearing that up. Do you think one could pre-wet some layers, then toss them in a fridge for 30 minutes or so until he got all the layers ready, then lay up he piece?
Most production shops store their MEKP in a refrigerator but I have never used chilled resin. With polyester I have always followed the old school schedule of applying half the weight of what has already been laid, kicked, and cooled. by the time I get to the point of laying up more than a couple layers of cloth I switch to heavy choped mat, core mat, or woven roving. So I never end up needing to layup more than a couple of layers at a time.

With epoxy I suppose chilling the pre weted cloth might help but I have never tried it, or needed to.
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Old 11-13-2011, 02:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
There are a lot of good user input in this thread. A subject that most books....dvd's or course's don't cover..... "The spills and thrills" But as with many people trying their own phase of work..... they venture out to try new things.....and all are not good.... and so it goes that mis information.... Or things that is not necessary the way things work correctly can be misinterpret, and discourage others that thought this is the way. So with all these different advises......available....I encourage all to test new methods ( wherever they are found) on a test batch of any kind.... Before moving onto the piece you are making.......as you are running a risk of destruction and failure...... Which to the newcomer can be detrimental. Many things work great...but perhaps not for each project... So that goes for every project.... Test your methods on a ....uuuummm test bed before moving on to your project...... That said.... Onward with the layups.....

Erling
Funny you should say that. Tried the pre-wetting technique and found it didn't work for me. Sure, maybe I'm not doing it exactly right, but it frustrated the crap out of me. Think I'll stick to the paint roller method.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:00 AM   #108
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Funny you should say that. Tried the pre-wetting technique and found it didn't work for me. Sure, maybe I'm not doing it exactly right, but it frustrated the crap out of me. Think I'll stick to the paint roller method.
Sorry you had problems, what cloth and resin did you use and what in particular was your problem? I learned this at the first shop I worked in which was an FRP mold shop and the next shop I went to which was a model shop they were using it there with epoxy.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:27 PM   #109
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I used 9oz glass twill with epoxy resin on a curved surface. I taped some news paper onto a bench and wetted out the glass with that. Firstly I struggled to get an even spread of resin partly due to the glass moving around when I tried to spread it. Then laying the wet glass out on the shape. It was very messy and couldn't really get it to conform as well as laying it out on a tacky surface dry and roll the glass into the surface with a paint roller. Any subsequent layer dry after that gets pushed into the old resin which secures it, but this was more difficult to achieve with the other method.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:40 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by tmotten View Post
I used 9oz glass twill with epoxy resin on a curved surface. I taped some news paper onto a bench and wetted out the glass with that. Firstly I struggled to get an even spread of resin partly due to the glass moving around when I tried to spread it. Then laying the wet glass out on the shape. It was very messy and couldn't really get it to conform as well as laying it out on a tacky surface dry and roll the glass into the surface with a paint roller. Any subsequent layer dry after that gets pushed into the old resin which secures it, but this was more difficult to achieve with the other method.
9 oz fabric of any weave is rather inflexible. Depending on the part configuration (size, contour, etc) it is preferable to use a much lighter product like 5 oz. Also, it may be preferable to orient the weave relative to the part corners on a bias (at 45 deg angles) for better draping.
The prewetting technique works particularly well when placing plies on vertical surfaces. Get a piece of window glass .25 in thick. Lay the fiberglas on the glass & wet it out. Let it sit a few minutes to dissolve the sizing then move the f'glass to the part & roll it in place.

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Old 11-18-2011, 03:46 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by harcus View Post
9 oz fabric of any weave is rather inflexible. Depending on the part configuration (size, contour, etc) it is preferable to use a much lighter product like 5 oz. Also, it may be preferable to orient the weave relative to the part corners on a bias (at 45 deg angles) for better draping.
The prewetting technique works particularly well when placing plies on vertical surfaces. Get a piece of window glass .25 in thick. Lay the fiberglas on the glass & wet it out. Let it sit a few minutes to dissolve the sizing then move the f'glass to the part & roll it in place.

Ultimately I'll be using 5.4oz carbon/kavlar which has the same strand widths as 9oz glass though. Have to check the bias angle though. That's a good point, one that I always forget.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:59 AM   #112
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Thanks for the guidance HickOnACrick - I've just made my first serious attempt at a fibreglass part - the airbox for my project bike.



I was particularly pleased with my pressurised mould release system:


It forced warm water into the base of the mould to break down the release agent and push the airbox out. It worked perfectly despite the mould having no draft.

Some bits didn't work as well as planned but on the whole I'm pleased with the result and the minor cosmetic defects aren't a problem for this hidden part.

Full details are on my blog:
http://www.throbbingmissile.com/2012...of-tricks.html
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:03 AM   #113
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This is another great thread. Will add it to the list. Have compiled a lot of helpful links here.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:43 PM   #114
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Noticed this thread just now and thought I would pile on sorry Im late to the party
Good stuff here
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:54 PM   #115
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Noticed this thread just now and thought I would pile on sorry Im late to the party
Good stuff here
Why did you edit your post?
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:00 AM   #116
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I've several years using epoxy and hand layup, this is my first real delve into polyester and bagging.

I laid up 2 layers of 7.5oz plain weave, 0° off axis, with fiberglast 77 resin, mixed .0125% MEKP with a spray can primer on the mold surface. Vacuum bagged with release, .125" breather and stretchlon 800 bagging and 99.99% sealed, the only leak was the breach at the air connector an inch outside the part.

Before I bagged it, I made sure it was wetout a bit more than what I would if I was just doing a handlayup part. I figured the breather would absorb the extra, but.... it took a little too much. or.... I did something else wrong?

The part came out with pin holes in nearly the entire part. The fabric was wetted out, but the space between the fabric was dry, which good news, made for a nice flexible part, but absolutely unacceptable part and would be very difficult to fix the part. i.e. Trashbin.

What I know I didn't do was lay the 2nd layer up at 45° axis and the spray can primer is obviously a single stage and is not optimal for "production" but for the first few parts may work. I'd like to think the primer isn't the problem, but I don't want to go out a buy a 75$ gallon of pain, 10$ gallon of thinner and acetone, and a new needle and tip for the gun, just to get the first few parts out while I learn. I don't want to have to learn 5 things, when I could just learn 4.... and especially when I don't need more than about 6oz of primer at a time.

Suggestions to start tracing the problem first with the pin holes?
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:40 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
I've several years using epoxy and hand layup, this is my first real delve into polyester and bagging.

I laid up 2 layers of 7.5oz plain weave, 0° off axis, with fiberglast 77 resin, mixed .0125% MEKP with a spray can primer on the mold surface. Vacuum bagged with release, .125" breather and stretchlon 800 bagging and 99.99% sealed, the only leak was the breach at the air connector an inch outside the part.

Before I bagged it, I made sure it was wetout a bit more than what I would if I was just doing a handlayup part. I figured the breather would absorb the extra, but.... it took a little too much. or.... I did something else wrong?

The part came out with pin holes in nearly the entire part. The fabric was wetted out, but the space between the fabric was dry, which good news, made for a nice flexible part, but absolutely unacceptable part and would be very difficult to fix the part. i.e. Trashbin.

What I know I didn't do was lay the 2nd layer up at 45° axis and the spray can primer is obviously a single stage and is not optimal for "production" but for the first few parts may work. I'd like to think the primer isn't the problem, but I don't want to go out a buy a 75$ gallon of pain, 10$ gallon of thinner and acetone, and a new needle and tip for the gun, just to get the first few parts out while I learn. I don't want to have to learn 5 things, when I could just learn 4.... and especially when I don't need more than about 6oz of primer at a time.

Suggestions to start tracing the problem first with the pin holes?
beechbum, check out compositecentral.com. Open an account there and you'll get the help you need.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:30 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
I've several years using epoxy and hand layup, this is my first real delve into polyester and bagging.

I laid up 2 layers of 7.5oz plain weave, 0° off axis, with fiberglast 77 resin, mixed .0125% MEKP with a spray can primer on the mold surface. Vacuum bagged with release, .125" breather and stretchlon 800 bagging and 99.99% sealed, the only leak was the breach at the air connector an inch outside the part.

Before I bagged it, I made sure it was wetout a bit more than what I would if I was just doing a handlayup part. I figured the breather would absorb the extra, but.... it took a little too much. or.... I did something else wrong?

The part came out with pin holes in nearly the entire part. The fabric was wetted out, but the space between the fabric was dry, which good news, made for a nice flexible part, but absolutely unacceptable part and would be very difficult to fix the part. i.e. Trashbin.

What I know I didn't do was lay the 2nd layer up at 45° axis and the spray can primer is obviously a single stage and is not optimal for "production" but for the first few parts may work. I'd like to think the primer isn't the problem, but I don't want to go out a buy a 75$ gallon of pain, 10$ gallon of thinner and acetone, and a new needle and tip for the gun, just to get the first few parts out while I learn. I don't want to have to learn 5 things, when I could just learn 4.... and especially when I don't need more than about 6oz of primer at a time.

Suggestions to start tracing the problem first with the pin holes?

The only difference I see is that I use brushes and squeegees for applying the resin, rather than blowing it on. What temp is your shop? It may be curing too fast?
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:00 AM   #119
beechum1
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Originally Posted by HickOnACrick View Post
The only difference I see is that I use brushes and squeegees for applying the resin, rather than blowing it on. What temp is your shop? It may be curing too fast?
que? I apply with a brush. I put more than I thought I should because I though the breather would soak it up. Maybe I need more???
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread Pendragon View Post
Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:57 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beechum1 View Post
I've several years using epoxy and hand layup, this is my first real delve into polyester and bagging.

I laid up 2 layers of 7.5oz plain weave, 0° off axis, with fiberglast 77 resin, mixed .0125% MEKP with a spray can primer on the mold surface. Vacuum bagged with release, .125" breather and stretchlon 800 bagging and 99.99% sealed, the only leak was the breach at the air connector an inch outside the part.

Before I bagged it, I made sure it was wetout a bit more than what I would if I was just doing a handlayup part. I figured the breather would absorb the extra, but.... it took a little too much. or.... I did something else wrong?

The part came out with pin holes in nearly the entire part. The fabric was wetted out, but the space between the fabric was dry, which good news, made for a nice flexible part, but absolutely unacceptable part and would be very difficult to fix the part. i.e. Trashbin.

What I know I didn't do was lay the 2nd layer up at 45° axis and the spray can primer is obviously a single stage and is not optimal for "production" but for the first few parts may work. I'd like to think the primer isn't the problem, but I don't want to go out a buy a 75$ gallon of pain, 10$ gallon of thinner and acetone, and a new needle and tip for the gun, just to get the first few parts out while I learn. I don't want to have to learn 5 things, when I could just learn 4.... and especially when I don't need more than about 6oz of primer at a time.

Suggestions to start tracing the problem first with the pin holes?
Degas the resin. This won't solve all your problems with bucket & brush, but it's a start.

It's tough to get great parts with bucket & brush in a vacuum bag. You'll pretty much always have some voids since the process tends to make bubble in your part that then grow under vacuum.

You can try to cure under higher pressure, or use a VPI/VARTM method. (Vacuum Pressure Impregnation/Vacuum Assisted Resin Transfer Method) Suck the resin through your glass inside a vacuum bag.
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