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Old 08-14-2011, 06:15 AM   #31
MotoJ OP
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Houston " ", cont'd

We had the trick subframe now- that should take some hours off the build, right? Not quite. We wanted the tub to sit lower and farther away from the bike than the frame mounts would dictate. Both for handling reasons (lower and wider means less lift in right turns), and for servicing (getting the valve cover off for valve adjustment, access to carb and oil filter port for maintenance).

To do this we had to cut the front ball jaw mount off the frame and swivel it. This would allow us to move the frame away and also move it front to back in order to set the wheel lead. We put the subframe on the bike and did a preliminary fit. With the frame mount unmodified, the tub nose would have sat up and looked like a boat in heavy chop. Plus our wheel lead would have been close to a foot, which would have been about 20% of the wheel base. We were shooting for more like 12-15%- somewhere around 7-8".

The bigger problem was that even with the mount cut and swivelled so that the rear adjustable mount and the front mount were at their closest distance to each other, the sidecar frame mounts were still about 3" wider apart than the balls on the new subframe. Crap!

the point of no return:







This rusty piece of Honda fork tube will be just the thing...





That's a long ways from mount to ball (snicker, snicker)


The first chink in the armor...
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:05 PM   #32
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What's the difference with having a longer/shorter wheel lead in a hack?
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:16 PM   #33
Roadracer_Al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoJ View Post
yeah, it's a small world. Were you in Baltimore, RRA? Part of the Chris, Bucky, Tex vintage race crew? I did see a 650 Ural rig at Tom's shop a few times. Was that yours? I may have met you once or twice.

Anyway, thanks for checking out the thread!
Yes, this is Alan. The I owned the Ural when I lived overseas in '02-03. What's your "meat name"?

I was friends with Samara (who introduced me to Zina), and did know tangentially Chris, Bucky & Tex. I sold a Derbi GPR 50 to Bucky, IIRC.

I lived in Wheaton, but worked in Baltimore a lot. I'm in Oakland, CA now.

Ha, yes, small world, getting smaller all the time.
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:32 PM   #34
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hey BWG, I could be called short with contacts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by baldwithglasses View Post
What's the difference with having a longer/shorter wheel lead in a hack?
Well, I'm a noob, obviously, but the way it was explained to me is this:

The easiest steering would be if the axle of the car wheel and the axle of the bike's rear wheel were in line. However, if that were the case, in hard left hand turns, the weight of the sidecar and whatever load is in it, plus the unloading of the rear suspension as you brake and make the turn, could cause the nose of the car to dive and grind into the road. In severe cases a "ground loop" can happen.

The farther the wheel is moved towards the front, the more stable the rig weight distribution-wise, but what happens is the sidecar wheel scrubs the road, rather than rolling through in the arc of the turn. The 15% of wheelbase number is sort of a happy medium that is a good place to start, especially for a novice like me. After that the rig can be tweaked according to the rider's preference. From everything I've read, this is not an exact science.

Hopefully some more experienced hack setter-uppers will chime in...
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:53 PM   #35
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Hi Alan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
Yes, this is Alan. The I owned the Ural when I lived overseas in '02-03. What's your "meat name"?

I was friends with Samara (who introduced me to Zina), and did know tangentially Chris, Bucky & Tex. I sold a Derbi GPR 50 to Bucky, IIRC.

I lived in Wheaton, but worked in Baltimore a lot. I'm in Oakland, CA now.

Ha, yes, small world, getting smaller all the time.
I knew Samara and your wife- tall dark haired medical illustrator beauty, yes?. I saw that Derbi (rode it in fact) when it was stored in the basement of the woodshop I used to work at in South Baltimore- LCM. One of the partners sponsored Chris and Tom (partially, anyway). Chris worked there, too. I think he was dating Samara at the time, and that's how the Derbi ended up there. I know Samara raced it in special Derbi events a couple times. Presuming we're talking about the same bike! This all would have been 99-01 therebouts, right?

My name is Jim, BTW.
What does "IIRC" stand for?
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Old 08-14-2011, 07:36 PM   #36
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The Resolution

We had the problem of the rear mount. It was nowhere near the rear subframe ball mount. We thought about cutting another piece of fork tube (BMW this time) and sleeving the horizontal part of the subframe and moving the ball rearwards. This really would have looked cobby, in my opinion, and it also raised problems of interference with the exhaust. Plus it would be cantilevered into space and not be backed by anything. We were kind of at a stand-still, but instead of cutting and welding, we walked away for a couple days.

When we came back, a solution began to reveal itself. Tom had found a Steib bell and jaws weld on mount in his cache of sidecar parts. We had that clamped on the rear ball like so:



Too bad we just can't weld something from one to the other, right? Problem solved. It didn't seem very elegant, however, and wouldn't there be a ton of stress on that rear mount bend, especially in hard left handers? that 90 degree pipe will fold, won't it? Ideally the rear mount should be more or less in line with the sidecar wheel axle, to distribute that cornering stress across the rig, right? We hemmed and hawed. What to do?

We both left the shop. I went home and started some research. I even called Chris C from Eurotech and asked his advice. Chris knows his shit and has seen a lot of sidecar scenarios. I was having a hard time explaining the situation, however, and we decided he better speak to Tom himself. So no ideas there at the moment. I went to work that following Monday feeling a little discouraged.

About midmorning I got a text from Tom. He was at the shop. I gave him a call. He said, "It's done". Huh? "I just welded something from one to the other, like we thought in the first place." Ha! Another crisis narrowly averted.
Tom's a bull by the horns kinda dude.

I stopped at the shop after work and saw this:




Gaaahh! Not very pretty, is it? Does the trick, though. Two lengths of 1/4" thick steel angle coped to the bells and welded along the edges to form a box. We'll scribe and measure everything and see how it holds up under use. I suspect it will be fine. I'm so confident I'm going to go ahead and finish paint this beeyotch!

MotoJ screwed with this post 08-14-2011 at 07:41 PM
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Old 08-14-2011, 07:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoJ View Post
What does "IIRC" stand for?
If I Recall Correctly.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:02 PM   #38
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Pissed i was sick of painting by now

...or stripping at least. I schlepped the frame back to my house and got it up on an old galvanized cart I scored out of an alley. People throw away the most useful stuff! I got out the drill and brush again. This time I just knocked off the loose paint and rust. I was out of the Dad's zip strip anyway. I figured any paint that was still adhered after 40-50 years wasn't going anywhere now. I used the metal ready etcher, and liberally coated the whole frame in black POR-15. POR-15 only chemically bonds and prevents rust in contact with bare metal, but over old paint it will still provide a super durable protective coat. I put it on with a bristle brush and it was a little drippy, but screw it.




I worked a late night trying to get this done before the weekend.


I had the appropriate soundtrack...


The next afternoon I scuffed up the POR-15 and sprayed the whole shebang with Chassis Coat. It dries to a velvety black semi-gloss, and is supposed to be almost as hard as powder coat. i was pretty happy with the end result. The finish paint makes all our mods look more like they were factory manufactured. Maybe a little, anyway...




Finally I loaded it all back up in the truck for the final fitting.



Getting really close now!
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:04 PM   #39
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:13 PM   #40
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Sweet project, thanks for sharing all the pics.
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:18 PM   #41
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The real work was taking place back at Camp

Whilst I'd been splattering paint, Tom had taken it upon himself to fashion and weld on a top clamp to the subframe, now giving it a fourth point of attachment where it needed it most. He also made a bolt on stretcher between the frame backs above the battery, to distribute stress across the bike.





He also turned a dandy new footpeg. The stock had to be taken off when we fit the subframe.
The new one is bolted through an eyelet on the subframe.


Now we were all set to start mounting the finished frame. We levered in the shock and mounted the wheel.


Finally we set the tub in place just to see what she looked like...



MotoJ screwed with this post 08-16-2011 at 06:42 PM
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:05 PM   #42
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Friggin' awesome. Nice work, looking fwd to seeing pics of the rig on the road...
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:11 AM   #43
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First rubber on the road...

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Friggin' awesome. Nice work, looking fwd to seeing pics of the rig on the road...
So, everything seems to fit together OK, let's tighten some bolts, strap on the tub, and take 'er for a spin...





I sure as hell wasn't going to get on that thing! I've never driven a rig before, so I let Tom be test pilot...


(problems with video link from Photobucket here- any suggestions?)

Sounds good! Now we have to wire it, mount the fender and lights, and start the road testing...
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Old 08-18-2011, 12:32 AM   #44
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So, everything seems to fit together OK, let's tighten some bolts, strap on the tub, and take 'er for a spin...





I sure as hell wasn't going to get on that thing! I've never driven a rig before, so I let Tom be test pilot...


(problems with video link from Photobucket here- any suggestions?)

Sounds good! Now we have to wire it, mount the fender and lights, and start the road testing...
Amazing, great build - now rip the engine outa that porsche and stuff it in the bike!!!!
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:56 AM   #45
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Great job man!
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