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Old 10-19-2011, 03:26 PM   #136
jake28
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Ladies and Gentlemen,

I don't know Cosman Chris but I've learned a great deal from this thread. I just donated five dollars to the cause of building something original. Please donate what you can, even a small amount. The thread has over 16,000 views. Imagine if each view was an individual and over half of them could be motivated to move their right pointed finger and hit donate: crankshafts, ECUs and complete bikes would be raining down from the heavens, and we would all be here to see it happen.

Folks, help Chris out and learn from him (and one another) in the process.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #137
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In - donation made (not much, but as the previous post said, it will add up fast if many chip in).
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:54 PM   #138
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I have a quick question, is this design much different than the BMW front end (whatever it's called) and if so, how? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious. By the way, You are doing something many of us, including me, can only dream of. Keep up the good work. As soon as my budget allows there will be a donation from me coming your way. Thank you for explaining what and how you are doing in terms we can all understand.

edit: Now that I asked that question and Googled Telelever, I see the differences, sorry for asking a dumb question.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:51 PM   #139
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made ny brain itch but thanks fer educating me.Do you have a top or front view, I'm tryin to wrap my noggin around it thanks
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:36 PM   #140
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geode, be careful, i still have my BP 2hp machine but look at how deep i'm in now!
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:44 PM   #141
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ratski,

BMW's telelever is one of their older front ends that is a copy of work done by Saxon-Motodd in the 80s and 90s. You can see a lot of various designs at http://www.tonyfoale.com/gallery/FrontEnd/index.htm.

Their newer front end on the K1200R is called, appropriately enough, the Duolever and is a variation of the Hossack style front end. It is a lot closer to Norman's original design than mine, especially with the scissor-style steering linkage. BMW got some static from the builder community by not acknowledging that their design was nearly an exact copy of the original Hossack. They have since relented and even had him as a guest to their GP tent at the 2007 Laguna GP. I met him there an we talked bike design for a while. He felt that BMW was on the cusp of entering and dominating racing. He made great front ends but I guess you can't hit them all.


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Old 10-19-2011, 10:29 PM   #142
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First I would like to echo some of the other members by saying thank you for sharing this whole process with us. I find it is waking up parts of my brain that have been dulled by my fold tab A into slot B job.

Now some questions;

1. Are the upper and lower control arms equal length and will the rake/trail stay consistant through full articulation?

2. Are the braking forces separated from the suspension movement?

3. If the front suspension is very rigid and the frame is just as rigid, what kind of side loading will the front tire be subjected to while turning? ( Would it cause a "hop" or "chattering" while exiting a corner under hard acceleration?)
4. If you connected one side of the lower control arm to a torsion bar and relocated the hydro damper to the lower frame rail below the control arm,(in extension), would there be a noticeable drop in weight, center of gravity?
5. Would radiant heat adversly affect said damper in that location?

Just some thoughts.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:33 PM   #143
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donation

I'm in.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:00 AM   #144
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I'm in for $50 to get the t-shirt. When my ship comes in I want my name on the cases!

Gregor

PS Chris has started a thread for technical questions about general fabrication and building so check that out and spread the word: Some Advice Required?
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:22 AM   #145
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scmopar, there's more images on the blog and at the website: http://www.cosentinoengineering.com/moto2/index.htm

Chris
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:34 AM   #146
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KZjohn,

No problem, it's nice to have an audience!

To answer your questions:

1. They are unequal length and trail changes slightly. I don't care about rake angle as that is not a main controlling factor for handling, trail is what I am concerned with.

2. I do have some dive but not as much as telescopics. So no, they are not completely separated. Having a FFE does not automatically mean anti-dive. I could set it up to have more dive than teles if I wanted to.

3. The chassis is rigid and the upright legs are stiff in the braking direction but I never said anything about lateral leg stiffness. There is definitely a need for lateral wheel compliance for absorbing bumps when leaned over but I feel using the frame for that is not the best way to go about it. With my front end arrangement I can have less lateral than longitudinal stiffness by having non-round upright legs, which I do.

4. Yes, switching to a torsion bar in the lower arm and relocating the damper lower would result in a lower C of G but not likely a decrease in overall weight. However a low C of G is not necessarily a good thing. It would also require a stronger control arm as it would now be loaded in bending, not just compression.

5. Hard to say if heat would be an issue. A small air gap and a cooling air stream go a long way. Ducati's 999 and later models have the rear shock right next to the exhaust pipes and seem to suffer no shock overheating issues.



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Old 10-21-2011, 12:42 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecosman View Post
KZjohn,

4. Yes, switching to a torsion bar in the lower arm and relocating the damper lower would result in a lower C of G but not likely a decrease in overall weight. However a low C of G is not necessarily a good thing. It would also require a stronger control arm as it would now be loaded in bending, not just compression.
Honda tried the lower CoG thing with the 84 NSR500 GP bike, which had an upside down chassis. Fuel down low, expansion chambers sweeping up over the engine. IT was disastrous...
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:14 AM   #148
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Really depends on the bike though. I helped build a bike with a belly tank, and high exhaust, and airbox. It works wonderfully (wins every race)
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:53 AM   #149
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Forgive my uneducated musings, but some more thoughts/opinions;

The CG needs to be above the axles for a bike to act like a bike. There needs to be a certain amount of polar moment of inertia. I see it in my head this way, when a bike tips into a corner, the wheels are trying to run under the bike to keep it uprite much like a toddler will run to keep it's body under it's big head.
My thoughts about relocating the front spring/damper lower were more about centering the mass than just lowering the CG. From a rider's stand point,(where I have most of my experience), if you can lower and center the mass it will make the rider's job easyer to go faster with more confidence. I race dirt bikes over long distances and conserving my energy is a high priority. If I can keep the weight lower on the bike it takes less effort to transition from side to side. You can build the most advanced, kick ass bike ever to roll a wheel on planet earth, if the rider is uncomfortable or unconfident on it, it will finish last every time.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:32 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by KZJohn View Post
You can build the most advanced, kick ass bike ever to roll a wheel on planet earth, if the rider is uncomfortable or unconfident on it, it will finish last every time.
Surely you jest!!







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