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Old 10-07-2012, 07:02 AM   #5836
tattewell
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Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Petawawa Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowRide13 View Post
Hello all,
I am a new '08 690 owner. I am thrilled with the bike. Perfect! Well almost...
On my 3rd or 4th ride, I got it tangled up in a vertical rock garden, and had the same "stall, won't start, wait, then it starts issue" several times before I got it out in the open. After that, no more problems. But I haven't gotten it so hot and slow since. So I have been reading through all these posts, trying to figure out which "fix" to do.

Of course I'd like to try the 15 minute idle and/or reset first. Will someone tell me the exact procedure?
Thanks,
Pete
In the morning when the bike is cold,

Turn the key on, let the gauges cycle.

Start the bike and do not touch a thing on start up, or for 15 minutes after start up.

Turn bike off

Some good stuff here http://www.monomaniacs.nl/mm/index.php
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:13 AM   #5837
nippybit
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Location: Henderson, Nevada
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Pump Maladies

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Good post Tom, greatly more interesting than hearing about the latest Touratech farkle you like so much.

If the pump was indeed still working fine and it was the ECU's fault, I don't understand how this would change with a new pump? Or is the 15 min idle part of a pump install?

I think Albie also took apart one of his pumps apart when it failed and he had a lot more black soot of some type in there, IIRC he mentioned a brush failure (I don't know shit about electric motors).
Hi Lukas,

You are right, Albie may be the only other poster here who has taken his pump apart. I saw his post and the pictures. He indicated that the brushes had grenaded and showed them as a mess of black stringly like things. From my limited understanding of our pump I really do not know how that could have happened nor does Dave.

Part of our theory is that the ECU knows when the pump is disconnected and this may trigger a reset that says "new pump" allowing it to get out of the logic loop that it gets caught in. I don't know if the tech at Carter did the 15 minute idle reset. I just did it thinking this can't hurt. I also did the key on throttle roll-on, roll-off, key off procedure. BTW I am with you it not knowing much about electric motors, thank God for my buddy Dave.

Maybe some real experts will come out of the woodwork and tell us exactly what is happening and how to fix it. It would be nice to hear from KTM or Keihin engineers who I understand lurk here. Probably not going to happen though.

Cheers,
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:20 AM   #5838
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
I'm not surprised at all that the pumps aren't the issue of the stalling and then waiting 10 minutes to restart. It's a simple motor and almost always, when they fail, they fail completely. Good logical troubleshooting Nippy.
Thanks for being the pioneer in doing a post mortem on the pump. You know, with all of the talk about riders carrying spare injectors, spare fuel pumps, etc. I just thought, why? Submersible fuel pumps and filters have been residing in fuel tanks of cars and trucks for years without much drama.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:26 AM   #5839
smokeeater495
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Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. These kind of issues with the 690 have scared me off from buying one. Not so much anymore. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R. My Chevy Silverado has an occasional problem of the HVAC going full hot, no matter where the controls are set. What we found was that by pulling the fuses for the heat/AC and then replacing them one at a time and cycling the controls it resets the system. Sounds like a similar problem, the ECU is getting caught up in a loop. If you wired a switch into the pump circuit that you could flip to open when the pump shuts down, would the ECU be fooled into thinking it was "disconnected" and function as a reset?
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smokeeater495 screwed with this post 10-07-2012 at 08:38 AM
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:27 AM   #5840
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudguts View Post
Nippy the 15 mini dle is for software update initiailisation , seeing how its a close loop system the ecu learns your riding input eg throttle position this helps fueling ignition bla bla bla in a five minute loop I believe ,maybe take the fuel ecu out for 30 seconds replace and ride this should wipe the memory or disconnect the battery

The best guy to talk to is Richard for vortex cdi I want to talk to him tomorrow so I'll ask why the fuel would cutout there maybe a thermal overload thyristor thats gone dicky could be bad code that never been fixed
You are quite right about the 15 minute idle procedure I just did it thinking this will not hurt anything and it may help, who knows. Perhaps Richard.

As I said a few posts ago disconnecting the fuel pump and then reconnecting may effect some sort of ECU reset. I don't believe that disconnecting the battery will help as power is lost to the ECU. My battery was replaced several weeks ago, just prior to the ride on which it began the symptoms and clearly it had no positive effect. Perhaps a battery disconnect when the problem is occurring may help, I don't know.
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:29 AM   #5841
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeeater495 View Post
Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R.
Thank you.
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:12 AM   #5842
Velociraptor
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Great post Nippy! I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.

I had my 2009 690r quit on me twice. Once when it was very new. I never knew for sure why it quit but I got it to restart after some time and made it home. I did the 15 minute reset and all was good for a couple of years. The second time it started losing power on the highway and finally just quit. I got it going twice and had it die again twice. Wiggling the wiring under the air box and behind the rad seemed to make a difference and tightening the blade connectors to the coil seemed to fix the problem. Eventually I went to the Cycleworks pump and the Vortex CPU and that aftermarket voltage regulator and no problems. I never saw any dirt in any screens for the pump and the post pump filter inside the tank looked like yours. I doubt my stock pump was ever the problem. I still wonder how the Cycleworks pump is better than the stock one but never got any clear explanation from California Cycleworks about that.
Anyway thanks again for your post!
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:28 AM   #5843
SlowRide13
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Location: Lakemont, Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tattewell View Post
In the morning when the bike is cold,

Turn the key on, let the gauges cycle.

Start the bike and do not touch a thing on start up, or for 15 minutes after start up.

Turn bike off

Some good stuff here http://www.monomaniacs.nl/mm/index.php
Thanks. I ran with the assumption that it was that simple and did the 15 minute idle this morning. Then I went and got my bike tangled up in network of downed timber and thick wooded singletrack (and no-track). It got hot enough for long enough that it should have been worse than the conditions that caused it to stall before. Flawless! So maybe a cheap, easy fix?

Thanks all,
Pete
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:07 AM   #5844
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeeater495 View Post
Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. These kind of issues with the 690 have scared me off from buying one. Not so much anymore. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R. My Chevy Silverado has an occasional problem of the HVAC going full hot, no matter where the controls are set. What we found was that by pulling the fuses for the heat/AC and then replacing them one at a time and cycling the controls it resets the system. Sounds like a similar problem, the ECU is getting caught up in a loop. If you wired a switch into the pump circuit that you could flip to open when the pump shuts down, would the ECU be fooled into thinking it was "disconnected" and function as a reset?
This is exactly what E. Engineer Dave said last night as we composed the message. In fact, he went so far as to say he thought he could do it. Now, exuberance aside, he may be able to or not. I will speak to him and give him some words of encouragement. I just keep remembering my conversations with the cable company where 95% of their advice consisted of unplugging the damn box or hitting the reset button. I have a Denon AV receiver (which is a bit pricey) and when it acted funny the technical folks would say, "lets do a hard reset". Just last week two of icons on the desktop of my iMac disappeared. I called AppleCare and the tech said, "lets do a hard reset" which entailed unplugging everything from the back of the computer. Presto, the icons returned upon powering back up. Things electrical, don't you just love them? Not!

I think Dave is now invested in trying to find a solution to this problem and I will report back on my discussions with him.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:12 AM   #5845
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
Oddometer: 92
Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Great post Nippy! I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.

I had my 2009 690r quit on me twice. Once when it was very new. I never knew for sure why it quit but I got it to restart after some time and made it home. I did the 15 minute reset and all was good for a couple of years. The second time it started losing power on the highway and finally just quit. I got it going twice and had it die again twice. Wiggling the wiring under the air box and behind the rad seemed to make a difference and tightening the blade connectors to the coil seemed to fix the problem. Eventually I went to the Cycleworks pump and the Vortex CPU and that aftermarket voltage regulator and no problems. I never saw any dirt in any screens for the pump and the post pump filter inside the tank looked like yours. I doubt my stock pump was ever the problem. I still wonder how the Cycleworks pump is better than the stock one but never got any clear explanation from California Cycleworks about that.
Anyway thanks again for your post!
Thanks for your input. I do hope that we can get to a solution to this continuing problem, not the stalling problem, but the stalling and then re-start problem, which is very expensive to fix if you replace your pump.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:30 AM   #5846
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
Oddometer: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudguts View Post
Nippy the 15 mini dle is for software update initiailisation , seeing how its a close loop system the ecu learns your riding input eg throttle position this helps fueling ignition bla bla bla in a five minute loop I believe ,maybe take the fuel ecu out for 30 seconds replace and ride this should wipe the memory or disconnect the battery

The best guy to talk to is Richard for vortex cdi I want to talk to him tomorrow so I'll ask why the fuel would cutout there maybe a thermal overload thyristor thats gone dicky could be bad code that never been fixed
Mudguts,

Another comment on what you said. Both Dave and I looked for a thermal thyristor (I believe they look like a small metal strip) somewhere on the outside or inside of the metal pump housing. Had we found one there then we could perhaps point to that malfunctioning, i.e., saying the pump was overheating when it wasn't. We did not find one.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:31 PM   #5847
Pantah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nippybit View Post
Mudguts,

Another comment on what you said. Both Dave and I looked for a thermal thyristor

Cheers,
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:09 PM   #5848
road_donkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
...I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.
There's an interesting question...do we know of anyone with the Vortex that has had a pump failure or the stalling symptoms...? If not, how does the Vortex handle the pump vs the stock ECU?
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:53 PM   #5849
Bigbugberg
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+1000 Nippybit!!!

Whether or not that is the fix, it's refreshing to read a quality analysis of a problem!!!

Thank you for your time and effort!
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #5850
crankshaft OP
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Great post Nippy, you've confirmed what I've always suspected. I also replaced the pump after the usual 10 minute cool down period but it didn't fix the problem. When mine died, I had a volt meter checking the voltage and when the 690 died, the voltage dropped to zero and then came back seconds later. I'm wondering if there is some voltage issue, causing the ECU to shut down and then reset? I know it probably has a minimum voltage that it needs to run and maybe it has an internal circuit breaker for the ECU power? The Vortex solved the problem actually, it never died like that again. Must be ECU related.

I have a 690 ECU to donate to the cause if you want to tear into it?
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