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Old 10-06-2012, 10:40 PM   #5851
Sobiloff
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Location: Reno, NV (USA)
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OK, dumb question: I've had the airbox off my 2008 690 Enduro for a couple of weeks waiting on parts. Finally got the parts (actually, a metric feeler gauge so I could replace my intake valve shims) and I'm putting the bike back together. However, I've got six screws in three different lengths, and of course I managed to kick the sheet of paper that marked which screws went where.

I'm assuming the longest pair are for the voltage regulator, but I don't see a rhyme or reason for where the remaining two sizes of screws should go in the airbox mounts. Do the shorter ones go in the back, the front, or maybe even the left or right side of the airbox?
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:54 AM   #5852
nippybit
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690 Fuel Pump Problems Demystified

Much has been written about this subject and many of us have replaced our fuel pumps because we believe that they have failed. My 690, a 2010 model has been trouble free until now. God knows I have been lovin on this bike for a long time so I now join the rest of us who have had this problem. Here are the symptoms I experienced: bike runs fine and then quits unexpectedly. After trying to diagnose various issues to no avail, taking about 10 minutes, I again tried a restart and when the key was turned on I heard the fuel pump pressurize and the bike restarted. I then thought of the symptoms reported by many of you and figured that perhaps the fuel pump was about to fail so I headed home, about 60 miles. I rode the slab for most of this distance and only when I got back to Henderson, NV and had to stop at various stoplights did the bike stop again. Hoping that it would again restart with a 10 minute or so wait I retried, and presto it fired up again and I got home. Next day, Saturday, I used my free Geico towing and had the bike delivered to Carter Powersports (a KTM dealer) in Las Vegas. I was able to meet with the tech who would work on my bike and explained what symptoms the bike had presented and gave the tech a number of pages of printouts from AR describing various fuel pump issues and fixes.

On Monday, I went to Carter again and this time gave the Service Manager more printouts from AR describing even more issues related to fuel pumps on the 690. Subsequently, the tech rode my bike and got about 20 miles and the bike quit on him. He then waited about 10 minutes and the bike re-fired, and when he got back he confirmed my initial diagnosis and ordered up a KTM fuel pump assembly. I chose not to go with a CycleWorks pump for various reasons. One week later my bike was repaired and I picked it up. At that time I asked the tech to give me my old pump so that I could perform a post mortem on it.

Once home, a neighbor and I cut it open with a Dremel in preparation for a diagnosis of failure mode by another neighbor of mine who has a degree in Electrical Engineering and has worked for over 30+ years in automotive engineering positions. His name is Dave and he is a fellow motorhead (both cars and motorcycles).

Here is what we discovered. How about some pictures!

Here is the pump assembly dissected. Notice that we cut the fuel filter out of the output line for further dissection/examination.

DSCN1331

The picture below shows the fuel filter (as cut open with the Dremel) and the fuel screen which goes at the bottom of the pump assembly inside the fuel reservoir (the large black plastic housing). We noticed that the fuel screen was clean and the pleats in the fuel filter did not contain any evidence of dirt or other contaminants. The change in color of the filter element we believe is due to various chemicals in the fuel. Therefore, we ruled out fuel flow restrictions due to the two filters.

DSCN1337

The following picture shows the brushes for the motor which are inside of the top snap-on cap of the fuel pump housing. As you can see, the brushes are clean/shiny and undamaged and they look typical for a running motor. Continuity was checked from the brushes to the connector and found to be without opens (poor electrical connection) even when wiggling the pigtail as measured with a DVM (digital voltmeter).

DSCN1332

The next two pictures show the commutator (which is attached to one end of the armature). The commutator carries the current from the brushes to the armature. Note that the small chips in the commutator are due to the disassembly where they were nicked by the Dremel. The top view of the commutator looks like pizza wedges. What should be noted is that they are also clean and shiny without any burn marks. In order to verify the continuity of the armature windings we took 8 measurements with the DVM. Each of the 8 measurements were 9.3 ohms +/- 0.1 (minus 6.0 ohms lead resistance). Therefore, each of the windings that drives the motor is 3 ohms. So this means that the armature is in good working order and has no opens or shorts. The second picture identifies that the commutator has not worn down to even close to failure mode. In other words, the commutator appears to be at the beginning of it's life.

DSCN1333

DSCN1334

FYI, here is a picture of the armature looking as if new, except for an occasional scratch inflicted by the Dremel.

DSCN1338

The following picture shows the black plastic vane/impeller and the two halves of the housing (metal parts) that surround it. There is no pitting or scoring in the two housing surfaces and there is no damage to the vane/impeller. In conclusion, this appears to be a perfectly running pump.

DSCN1336

Separate from examining the pump assembly we viewed the wiring schematic for a 2010 690 R and noted the following. Power for the fuel pump motor/assembly comes directly from the battery through a 10 amp fuse. The ground, which completes the circuit, is controlled by the ECU. In other words, the pressure regulator is not in this circuit. Therefore, replacing the pump that was deemed functional (by us) with another KTM pump assembly did not specifically resolve the issue of stalling and then restarting. I have ridden the bike for two and a half years before this anomaly appeared. While the bike is running just great now I have only had it out of the shop for about a week. Hopefully the anomaly will not reappear for another two and a half years, who knows.

In conclusion, the ECU seems to have some logic that is getting into a loop that causes the pump to shut down and recycling the key does not reactivate the pump until a 10 minute period has elapsed. All of us have experienced cable boxes and computers that occasionally require a hard power reset in order to clear various faults. We believe that the ECU is experiencing a similar anomaly.

After this event, I reminded myself of the MonoManiacs post, on their site, of the 15 minute "idle reset procedure", which not only resets the idle but reset several of my displays from the ECU and seemingly was a hard software reset. I may not be correct here but this may be a bandaid to the symptoms of pump failure. It should be noted that catastrophic failure of a fuel pump means that the motor stops and will not restart regardless of waiting time. I plan to do the 15 minute idle reset procedure on a regular basis and will report my findings to fellow inmates.

The stop and then restart symptom, that many of us have been experiencing, appears to be the implementation of a safety procedure by the ECU to prevent prevent overheating of the pump and wires which could, among other things, cause a fire.

In the repair manual there is a procedure to confirm fuel pump operation and pressure prior to replacement of the fuel pump. This requires a KTM specific diagnostic tool, which will measure fuel pressure output of the pump which should be between 48 to 54 psi. This is certainly a benefit to save the cost of replacing a fuel pump when the failure/problem is located elsewhere.

So, here is our recommendation. If you experience the stalling requiring a 10 minute wait and your bike re-starts we suggest that you go through the overnite cool down and idle reset procedure the next morning as a possible solution. We would like to get input to confirm our theory on this. Perhaps there are inmates here that have anecdotal evidence to support this theory. If the problem goes away then this could be a bandaid to keep you running. The last thing that we need to do is to spend $357.00 + labor on a new pump assembly if it is not needed. We further postulate that the disconnecting of the old pump tells the ECU to do a hard reset thereby resolving the intermittent stalling issue for a long time, or perhaps forever. We can only hope.

Give me your feedback.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
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Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!

nippybit screwed with this post 10-07-2012 at 02:03 AM
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:17 AM   #5853
Barman
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Kee..rap ^^^
Best post ever.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:34 AM   #5854
Night Falcon
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Thanks for the report Nippybit. I have never had any problems with my pump (yet) but have read about other owners problems and hoping it won't happen to me. Interestingly I haven't herd of anyone in NZ/Aus having this problem with their bikes so had written it off as US model problem? In anycase it will be good to see what you can uncover.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:47 AM   #5855
nippybit
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Than You

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barman View Post
Kee..rap ^^^
Best post ever.
Thanks for the kind words, Barman. Sorry I screwed up the Thank You in the subject line. I am a bit tired now.

Cheers,
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:50 AM   #5856
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Falcon View Post
Thanks for the report Nippybit. I have never had any problems with my pump (yet) but have read about other owners problems and hoping it won't happen to me. Interestingly I haven't herd of anyone in NZ/Aus having this problem with their bikes so had written it off as US model problem? In anycase it will be good to see what you can uncover.
I do hope that this helps. Thanks again for showing an old fart how to post individual pictures.

Cheers,
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:55 AM   #5857
Evil Invader
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Super jobb Nippybit! Agree with Barman.
Thank you!
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:00 AM   #5858
LukasM
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Good post Tom, greatly more interesting than hearing about the latest Touratech farkle you like so much.

If the pump was indeed still working fine and it was the ECU's fault, I don't understand how this would change with a new pump? Or is the 15 min idle part of a pump install?

I think Albie also took apart one of his pumps apart when it failed and he had a lot more black soot of some type in there, IIRC he mentioned a brush failure (I don't know shit about electric motors).
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:23 AM   #5859
Mudguts
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Nippy the 15 mini dle is for software update initiailisation , seeing how its a close loop system the ecu learns your riding input eg throttle position this helps fueling ignition bla bla bla in a five minute loop I believe ,maybe take the fuel ecu out for 30 seconds replace and ride this should wipe the memory or disconnect the battery

The best guy to talk to is Richard for vortex cdi I want to talk to him tomorrow so I'll ask why the fuel would cutout there maybe a thermal overload thyristor thats gone dicky could be bad code that never been fixed
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:09 AM   #5860
SlowRide13
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Hello all,
I am a new '08 690 owner. I am thrilled with the bike. Perfect! Well almost...
On my 3rd or 4th ride, I got it tangled up in a vertical rock garden, and had the same "stall, won't start, wait, then it starts issue" several times before I got it out in the open. After that, no more problems. But I haven't gotten it so hot and slow since. So I have been reading through all these posts, trying to figure out which "fix" to do.

Of course I'd like to try the 15 minute idle and/or reset first. Will someone tell me the exact procedure?
Thanks,
Pete
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:48 AM   #5861
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nippybit View Post
I do hope that this helps. Thanks again for showing an old fart how to post individual pictures.

Cheers,
I'm not surprised at all that the pumps aren't the issue of the stalling and then waiting 10 minutes to restart. It's a simple motor and almost always, when they fail, they fail completely. Good logical troubleshooting Nippy.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:02 AM   #5862
tattewell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowRide13 View Post
Hello all,
I am a new '08 690 owner. I am thrilled with the bike. Perfect! Well almost...
On my 3rd or 4th ride, I got it tangled up in a vertical rock garden, and had the same "stall, won't start, wait, then it starts issue" several times before I got it out in the open. After that, no more problems. But I haven't gotten it so hot and slow since. So I have been reading through all these posts, trying to figure out which "fix" to do.

Of course I'd like to try the 15 minute idle and/or reset first. Will someone tell me the exact procedure?
Thanks,
Pete
In the morning when the bike is cold,

Turn the key on, let the gauges cycle.

Start the bike and do not touch a thing on start up, or for 15 minutes after start up.

Turn bike off

Some good stuff here http://www.monomaniacs.nl/mm/index.php
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #5863
nippybit
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Pump Maladies

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Good post Tom, greatly more interesting than hearing about the latest Touratech farkle you like so much.

If the pump was indeed still working fine and it was the ECU's fault, I don't understand how this would change with a new pump? Or is the 15 min idle part of a pump install?

I think Albie also took apart one of his pumps apart when it failed and he had a lot more black soot of some type in there, IIRC he mentioned a brush failure (I don't know shit about electric motors).
Hi Lukas,

You are right, Albie may be the only other poster here who has taken his pump apart. I saw his post and the pictures. He indicated that the brushes had grenaded and showed them as a mess of black stringly like things. From my limited understanding of our pump I really do not know how that could have happened nor does Dave.

Part of our theory is that the ECU knows when the pump is disconnected and this may trigger a reset that says "new pump" allowing it to get out of the logic loop that it gets caught in. I don't know if the tech at Carter did the 15 minute idle reset. I just did it thinking this can't hurt. I also did the key on throttle roll-on, roll-off, key off procedure. BTW I am with you it not knowing much about electric motors, thank God for my buddy Dave.

Maybe some real experts will come out of the woodwork and tell us exactly what is happening and how to fix it. It would be nice to hear from KTM or Keihin engineers who I understand lurk here. Probably not going to happen though.

Cheers,
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:20 AM   #5864
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
I'm not surprised at all that the pumps aren't the issue of the stalling and then waiting 10 minutes to restart. It's a simple motor and almost always, when they fail, they fail completely. Good logical troubleshooting Nippy.
Thanks for being the pioneer in doing a post mortem on the pump. You know, with all of the talk about riders carrying spare injectors, spare fuel pumps, etc. I just thought, why? Submersible fuel pumps and filters have been residing in fuel tanks of cars and trucks for years without much drama.

Cheers,
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:26 AM   #5865
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Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. These kind of issues with the 690 have scared me off from buying one. Not so much anymore. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R. My Chevy Silverado has an occasional problem of the HVAC going full hot, no matter where the controls are set. What we found was that by pulling the fuses for the heat/AC and then replacing them one at a time and cycling the controls it resets the system. Sounds like a similar problem, the ECU is getting caught up in a loop. If you wired a switch into the pump circuit that you could flip to open when the pump shuts down, would the ECU be fooled into thinking it was "disconnected" and function as a reset?
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