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Old 10-07-2012, 08:27 AM   #5866
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudguts View Post
Nippy the 15 mini dle is for software update initiailisation , seeing how its a close loop system the ecu learns your riding input eg throttle position this helps fueling ignition bla bla bla in a five minute loop I believe ,maybe take the fuel ecu out for 30 seconds replace and ride this should wipe the memory or disconnect the battery

The best guy to talk to is Richard for vortex cdi I want to talk to him tomorrow so I'll ask why the fuel would cutout there maybe a thermal overload thyristor thats gone dicky could be bad code that never been fixed
You are quite right about the 15 minute idle procedure I just did it thinking this will not hurt anything and it may help, who knows. Perhaps Richard.

As I said a few posts ago disconnecting the fuel pump and then reconnecting may effect some sort of ECU reset. I don't believe that disconnecting the battery will help as power is lost to the ECU. My battery was replaced several weeks ago, just prior to the ride on which it began the symptoms and clearly it had no positive effect. Perhaps a battery disconnect when the problem is occurring may help, I don't know.
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:29 AM   #5867
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeeater495 View Post
Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R.
Thank you.
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2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:12 AM   #5868
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Great post Nippy! I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.

I had my 2009 690r quit on me twice. Once when it was very new. I never knew for sure why it quit but I got it to restart after some time and made it home. I did the 15 minute reset and all was good for a couple of years. The second time it started losing power on the highway and finally just quit. I got it going twice and had it die again twice. Wiggling the wiring under the air box and behind the rad seemed to make a difference and tightening the blade connectors to the coil seemed to fix the problem. Eventually I went to the Cycleworks pump and the Vortex CPU and that aftermarket voltage regulator and no problems. I never saw any dirt in any screens for the pump and the post pump filter inside the tank looked like yours. I doubt my stock pump was ever the problem. I still wonder how the Cycleworks pump is better than the stock one but never got any clear explanation from California Cycleworks about that.
Anyway thanks again for your post!
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:28 AM   #5869
SlowRide13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tattewell View Post
In the morning when the bike is cold,

Turn the key on, let the gauges cycle.

Start the bike and do not touch a thing on start up, or for 15 minutes after start up.

Turn bike off

Some good stuff here http://www.monomaniacs.nl/mm/index.php
Thanks. I ran with the assumption that it was that simple and did the 15 minute idle this morning. Then I went and got my bike tangled up in network of downed timber and thick wooded singletrack (and no-track). It got hot enough for long enough that it should have been worse than the conditions that caused it to stall before. Flawless! So maybe a cheap, easy fix?

Thanks all,
Pete
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:07 AM   #5870
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeeater495 View Post
Nippy, that was an awesome post. I know your effort is greatly appreciated. These kind of issues with the 690 have scared me off from buying one. Not so much anymore. Now if I can just find a 690 Enduro R. My Chevy Silverado has an occasional problem of the HVAC going full hot, no matter where the controls are set. What we found was that by pulling the fuses for the heat/AC and then replacing them one at a time and cycling the controls it resets the system. Sounds like a similar problem, the ECU is getting caught up in a loop. If you wired a switch into the pump circuit that you could flip to open when the pump shuts down, would the ECU be fooled into thinking it was "disconnected" and function as a reset?
This is exactly what E. Engineer Dave said last night as we composed the message. In fact, he went so far as to say he thought he could do it. Now, exuberance aside, he may be able to or not. I will speak to him and give him some words of encouragement. I just keep remembering my conversations with the cable company where 95% of their advice consisted of unplugging the damn box or hitting the reset button. I have a Denon AV receiver (which is a bit pricey) and when it acted funny the technical folks would say, "lets do a hard reset". Just last week two of icons on the desktop of my iMac disappeared. I called AppleCare and the tech said, "lets do a hard reset" which entailed unplugging everything from the back of the computer. Presto, the icons returned upon powering back up. Things electrical, don't you just love them? Not!

I think Dave is now invested in trying to find a solution to this problem and I will report back on my discussions with him.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:12 AM   #5871
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Great post Nippy! I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.

I had my 2009 690r quit on me twice. Once when it was very new. I never knew for sure why it quit but I got it to restart after some time and made it home. I did the 15 minute reset and all was good for a couple of years. The second time it started losing power on the highway and finally just quit. I got it going twice and had it die again twice. Wiggling the wiring under the air box and behind the rad seemed to make a difference and tightening the blade connectors to the coil seemed to fix the problem. Eventually I went to the Cycleworks pump and the Vortex CPU and that aftermarket voltage regulator and no problems. I never saw any dirt in any screens for the pump and the post pump filter inside the tank looked like yours. I doubt my stock pump was ever the problem. I still wonder how the Cycleworks pump is better than the stock one but never got any clear explanation from California Cycleworks about that.
Anyway thanks again for your post!
Thanks for your input. I do hope that we can get to a solution to this continuing problem, not the stalling problem, but the stalling and then re-start problem, which is very expensive to fix if you replace your pump.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:30 AM   #5872
nippybit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudguts View Post
Nippy the 15 mini dle is for software update initiailisation , seeing how its a close loop system the ecu learns your riding input eg throttle position this helps fueling ignition bla bla bla in a five minute loop I believe ,maybe take the fuel ecu out for 30 seconds replace and ride this should wipe the memory or disconnect the battery

The best guy to talk to is Richard for vortex cdi I want to talk to him tomorrow so I'll ask why the fuel would cutout there maybe a thermal overload thyristor thats gone dicky could be bad code that never been fixed
Mudguts,

Another comment on what you said. Both Dave and I looked for a thermal thyristor (I believe they look like a small metal strip) somewhere on the outside or inside of the metal pump housing. Had we found one there then we could perhaps point to that malfunctioning, i.e., saying the pump was overheating when it wasn't. We did not find one.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:31 PM   #5873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nippybit View Post
Mudguts,

Another comment on what you said. Both Dave and I looked for a thermal thyristor

Cheers,
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:09 PM   #5874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
...I guess I am in the clear because I am running the Vortex ECU and I have the Cycleworks pump.
There's an interesting question...do we know of anyone with the Vortex that has had a pump failure or the stalling symptoms...? If not, how does the Vortex handle the pump vs the stock ECU?
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:53 PM   #5875
Bigbugberg
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+1000 Nippybit!!!

Whether or not that is the fix, it's refreshing to read a quality analysis of a problem!!!

Thank you for your time and effort!
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #5876
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Great post Nippy, you've confirmed what I've always suspected. I also replaced the pump after the usual 10 minute cool down period but it didn't fix the problem. When mine died, I had a volt meter checking the voltage and when the 690 died, the voltage dropped to zero and then came back seconds later. I'm wondering if there is some voltage issue, causing the ECU to shut down and then reset? I know it probably has a minimum voltage that it needs to run and maybe it has an internal circuit breaker for the ECU power? The Vortex solved the problem actually, it never died like that again. Must be ECU related.

I have a 690 ECU to donate to the cause if you want to tear into it?
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:44 PM   #5877
nippybit
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Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbugberg View Post
+1000 Nippybit!!!

Whether or not that is the fix, it's refreshing to read a quality analysis of a problem!!!

Thank you for your time and effort!
You are welcome. I hope that Dave and I come up with more answers and hopefully a fix that works.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #5878
Mudguts
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Ok just spoke to Vortex there is a thermal over load in the vortex ecu but he can't remember if there is paramiteters on the stock but certain there is , he has experienced the pump issue on a berg while out riding with three other EFI gurus

So the pump may look tiptop the field or armature winding must be braking down underload , kind of hard to replicate with engine vibs fuel , temp
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:49 PM   #5879
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
Oddometer: 92
Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by crankshaft View Post
Great post Nippy, you've confirmed what I've always suspected. I also replaced the pump after the usual 10 minute cool down period but it didn't fix the problem. When mine died, I had a volt meter checking the voltage and when the 690 died, the voltage dropped to zero and then came back seconds later. I'm wondering if there is some voltage issue, causing the ECU to shut down and then reset? I know it probably has a minimum voltage that it needs to run and maybe it has an internal circuit breaker for the ECU power? The Vortex solved the problem actually, it never died like that again. Must be ECU related.

I have a 690 ECU to donate to the cause if you want to tear into it?
Thank you Crank. I think you are right and I hope that we can get to the bottom of the problem and then let everyone know. I will take you up on your offer for the ECU and send you my contact information by PM.

Cheers,
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #5880
nippybit
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Joined: May 2010
Location: Henderson, Nevada
Oddometer: 92
Fuel Pump Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudguts View Post
Ok just spoke to Vortex there is a thermal over load in the vortex ecu but he can't remember if there is paramiteters on the stock but certain there is , he has experienced the pump issue on a berg while out riding with three other EFI gurus

So the pump may look tiptop the field or armature winding must be braking down underload , kind of hard to replicate with engine vibs fuel , temp
Thanks for the info. Not so sure about the theory of the armature breaking down under load. If you are right about this then all of us who have bought new pumps did the right thing. If not, then we are still looking for answers.

When my bike died the first time I had been almost idling along in 5th gear on a small paved road going downhill headed towards a lake. I had not been running it hard at all as I was doing some recon in an area where we will go looking for old gold mines off-road. I had not even gotten to one of the off-road areas. When I arrived at a Forest Service Ranger Station and shut the bike off to pay an entry fee it would not restart. Subsequently, when I got it restarted, I ran the living shit out of it trying to get home before catastrophic failure, which I expected. I hit the slab and rode the bike at 85 to 90 mph passing people going uphill and downhill for 60+ miles. This was screaming the motor a bit as I have 14/45 gearing. I then ran it hard through the gears when I hit a few stoplights in the city. Then it died while idling at an intersection about 3 miles from my home. Ten minute wait and then it started and ran fine again. The tech at Carter Powersports road it 20 miles and then it died and subsequently restarted. He reported that when running it performed great. Very similar to what a lot of riders here have reported.

Still searching for answers.

Cheers
__________________
2010 KTM 690 R (sold 12/11/12)
Previous bikes (way too many to list here and what's the point)
Been riding mostly off-road since 1960--began at age 14.
Watch this space as I am about to say something really prophetic!
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