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Old 04-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #8341
davidmnz
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Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Auckland, NZ
Oddometer: 24
No start - what next?

Things checked so far:

1. Damaged wiring. No.
2. Air. Yes. Air filter clean.
3. Fuel. Yes. I can hear the pump running. Strong fuel smell from exhaust after cranking for a while.
4. Spark. Yes. Seems to be a good, bright spark. Plug gap OK.
5. Volts. Might be too low? Measured at the battery: 12.7V initially. Dropped to around 11.2V when cranking. Back up to 12.6V after test.

Questions:

1. Should I expect zero firing with the battery voltage measured?
2. What to check next? (I am searching the thread for ideas also.)
3. Has anyone managed to get the spark plug out without removing the airbox?
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #8342
obee404
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2008 690 fuelling problem

Hi,

With Acro slip on, mapped by dealer, bike has run perfectly until yesterday. No fault codes displayed but bike wont rev over 4000rpm then sounds choked as if blocked jet if it were on a carb. Struggle to hold 40mph. Unlike most other reported issues, bike starts first time, is crisp off the bottom & doesnt stall. All elec connections checked & blown out with airline. Any suggestions ?
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:24 PM   #8343
MrHix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obee404 View Post
Hi,

With Acro slip on, mapped by dealer, bike has run perfectly until yesterday. No fault codes displayed but bike wont rev over 4000rpm then sounds choked as if blocked jet if it were on a carb. Struggle to hold 40mph. Unlike most other reported issues, bike starts first time, is crisp off the bottom & doesnt stall. All elec connections checked & blown out with airline. Any suggestions ?
Sorry if you have already checked, but have you checked the leads to the coil? I had the same problem & I found that I had not attached one of the wires securely.

Good luck,

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:57 PM   #8344
Velociraptor
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Instrument cluster gone dark!

My turn to deal with electrical gremlins Put a new shock on my 2009 690r today and after I was done the instrument cluster was not working. Everything else works. Headlights, turn signals, bar controls all work. I am pretty sure I must have done something to a wire when I had to pivot the gas tank up to get the shock out. Bike starts and runs OK in the garage. Anybody else had this particular problem? Fuses are all ok. For awhile the cluster has a very dim back light in the instrument panel that came on and off in repeating intervals of eight with a slight pause then eight more. This kept going. Seems like that has stopped now. This was NOT the FI light as none for the idiot lights were working. Rather is was a dim backlight of the main instrument panel, but no appearance of any numbers. No wires behind the headlight shroud seem broken. I am guessing it is something in the large wiring bundle under the battery. I am going to trace back from fuse 1 unless I get some advice from the asylum here!
BTW I noticed that there is about 10 volts going across fuse 1 contacts with ignition off. With ignition on the voltage goes up to around 13.
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Velociraptor screwed with this post 04-19-2013 at 09:06 PM
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:24 PM   #8345
rickypanecatyl
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Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
Things checked so far:

1. Damaged wiring. No.
2. Air. Yes. Air filter clean.
3. Fuel. Yes. I can hear the pump running. Strong fuel smell from exhaust after cranking for a while.
4. Spark. Yes. Seems to be a good, bright spark. Plug gap OK.
5. Volts. Might be too low? Measured at the battery: 12.7V initially. Dropped to around 11.2V when cranking. Back up to 12.6V after test.

Questions:

1. Should I expect zero firing with the battery voltage measured?
2. What to check next? (I am searching the thread for ideas also.)
3. Has anyone managed to get the spark plug out without removing the airbox?
David was it running fine before the 6 week rest? Any fault codes?

I've had fuel pump issues even when I could hear the fuel pump and with my history that would be my first guess followed by a plugged injector.
If it were me I would check and make sure you are getting good pressure coming out the fuel hose while cranking.

I haven't tried this but curious if it will work for cleaning the 690's injectors? It's from Neduro's EXC500 thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by neduro
Those sound like injector issues.

A few tips on injector cleaning. Take the injector out, drown it in carb cleaner/ solvent, put the downstream end in the schraeder valve side of a bicycle floor pump, and blow into it. It'll take quite a few PSI (as high as 80ish), but it will let go and shoot a bunch of junk out. Easily done in the boonies provided you have a pump. No harm to the injector and typically the bike runs great after doing so.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:46 AM   #8346
davidmnz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
David was it running fine before the 6 week rest? Any fault codes?
Yes. I have had zero fault codes since new. Well actually I got one today when I cranked it over with the airbox off. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickypanecatyl View Post
I've had fuel pump issues even when I could hear the fuel pump and with my history that would be my first guess followed by a plugged injector.
If it were me I would check and make sure you are getting good pressure coming out the fuel hose while cranking.

I haven't tried this but curious if it will work for cleaning the 690's injectors? It's from Neduro's EXC500 thread:
Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure I'm getting fuel into the engine because the exhaust stinks of unburnt fuel after cranking for a while. I thought I should get some bangs since I think I have air, fuel and spark but I get nothing.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:25 PM   #8347
Roadracer_Al
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Sheared flywheel key? Slipped cam chain? What does compression look like -- b/c of fuel injection, engines no longer need to suck air through carbs, and will give the fuel-smell at the exhaust pipe even if there is no sealing at the piston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I thought I should get some bangs since I think I have air, fuel and spark but I get nothing.
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:46 PM   #8348
davidmnz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
Sheared flywheel key? Slipped cam chain? What does compression look like -- b/c of fuel injection, engines no longer need to suck air through carbs, and will give the fuel-smell at the exhaust pipe even if there is no sealing at the piston.
I can't see it being a compression problem since it was running and starting fine the last time I rode it. Cam chain slippage, sheared flywheel key (ignition sensor?) are possible I suppose. Are these kinds of things more likely after the bike has been sitting a while?

I am pretty sure now it is electrical. Since I had the airbox off I pulled the injector and got a nice figure 8 (sort of) spray pattern. Plenty of fuel pressure too. I didn't realise the injector is 2 parts and the pressure blew it half apart. Fuel spraying everywhere. Slight panic until I figured it out.

So now I think it is either (1) some weird low voltage issue or (2) a major ignition timing error. Not sure how I could have issue (2) unless something slipped/broke when I first tried to start it. Easier to check/fix issue (1) so that's next on the todo list.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:22 PM   #8349
DrtSqtr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprouty115 View Post
I have a burn on my left arm from 4-days ago and another one from last night. I'll be ordering my FMF later today...
May be we should start a new thread titled SHOW ME YOUR BURN....lol
ive got one on my right arm...lol your not alone.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:05 PM   #8350
lightfighter
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I don't know how exactly you are verifying spark, but mine was stored seceral months until I bought and started but then didnt. the plug fired when grounded outsiderhe plug hole, but was nontheless fouled. i replaced it and everything was fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I can't see it being a compression problem since it was running and starting fine the last time I rode it. Cam chain slippage, sheared flywheel key (ignition sensor?) are possible I suppose. Are these kinds of things more likely after the bike has been sitting a while?

I am pretty sure now it is electrical. Since I had the airbox off I pulled the injector and got a nice figure 8 (sort of) spray pattern. Plenty of fuel pressure too. I didn't realise the injector is 2 parts and the pressure blew it half apart. Fuel spraying everywhere. Slight panic until I figured it out.

So now I think it is either (1) some weird low voltage issue or (2) a major ignition timing error. Not sure how I could have issue (2) unless something slipped/broke when I first tried to start it. Easier to check/fix issue (1) so that's next on the todo list.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:41 AM   #8351
davidmnz
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Location: Auckland, NZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightfighter View Post
I don't know how exactly you are verifying spark, but mine was stored seceral months until I bought and started but then didnt. the plug fired when grounded outsiderhe plug hole, but was nontheless fouled. i replaced it and everything was fine.
I tested for sparks the same way you did. Got a nice, fat, bright spark so I figured the plug should be good enough to get the engine started. Maybe my reasoning is flawed but I figure if the rest of the ignition system is good then a plug that sparks outside the cylinder should spark under pressure in the cylinder. But if something else is degraded then a slightly fouled plug might not fire.

Anyway, why should the plug be fouled by attempted starts after sitting for a while? Oil fouling in two strokes I can understand but I can't see why a four stroke should foul plugs unless mixture is way too rich. I've never had this kind of problem before and it's not the first time I've left a bike unused for weeks or even months. My TL1000S had a rather crude EFI system but would start even when the battery was nearly flat. I flattened the battery on my CBR1000RR once but it started OK after recharging the battery overnight. It's been decades since I've had to change a plug to get a bike running.

Experts please feel free to trash my argument...

Tomorrow I intend to try jump starting the bike off my car battery. I will report back with results.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:10 AM   #8352
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtSqtr View Post
May be we should start a new thread titled SHOW ME YOUR BURN....lol
ive got one on my right arm...lol your not alone.
Hell, after a couple of those burns and a few gear melts, I figure most people get rid of that POS stock can.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:22 AM   #8353
Roadracer_Al
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Location: Oakland, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I tested for sparks the same way you did. Got a nice, fat, bright spark so I figured the plug should be good enough to get the engine started. Maybe my reasoning is flawed but I figure if the rest of the ignition system is good then a plug that sparks outside the cylinder should spark under pressure in the cylinder.
There is an actual spark tester tool -- looks basically like a spark plug with no ground bar -- it jumps from the electrode to the housing, a bit under 3/8" -- and a small spring clamp to attach it to ground.

The dielectric (insulating) property of any gas increases with pressure -- there is more "stuff" packed into a smaller area, so more electrical resistance is created. That's why just testing with a normal sparkplug doesn't give 100% iron-clad proof that the ignition system is working right.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #8354
slidefighter
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+1 on what RR-Al said. Piston aircraft engines have notoriously weak sparks because of their magneto driven ignition systems. Takes a number of crafty solutions to make them work well: Special multi-pronged surface gap spark plugs, impulse couplings for starting, dual plugs in each cylinder, etc. Serious aircraft mechanics use pressurized spark plug testors to simulate the conditions the plug actually sees in operation. Often they spark well enough in the open air (but not much---they don't spark very brightly no matter what) but then not at all under pressure. Automotive/motorcycle plugs do much better because of the stronger ignition systems they employ, but they can still suffer from poor/no spark under pressure. $2,345 U.S. for a Champion pressure tester. And you thought motorcycle "stuff" was expensive...

Just sayin'...
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Old 04-21-2013, 03:07 PM   #8355
dunefreak
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Location: Henderson, NV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmnz View Post
I tested for sparks the same way you did. Got a nice, fat, bright spark so I figured the plug should be good enough to get the engine started. Maybe my reasoning is flawed but I figure if the rest of the ignition system is good then a plug that sparks outside the cylinder should spark under pressure in the cylinder. But if something else is degraded then a slightly fouled plug might not fire.

Anyway, why should the plug be fouled by attempted starts after sitting for a while? Oil fouling in two strokes I can understand but I can't see why a four stroke should foul plugs unless mixture is way too rich. I've never had this kind of problem before and it's not the first time I've left a bike unused for weeks or even months. My TL1000S had a rather crude EFI system but would start even when the battery was nearly flat. I flattened the battery on my CBR1000RR once but it started OK after recharging the battery overnight. It's been decades since I've had to change a plug to get a bike running.

Experts please feel free to trash my argument...

Tomorrow I intend to try jump starting the bike off my car battery. I will report back with results.
Sounds like you've covered most everything so far. Good voltage/ cranking speed, fuel pressure, injector pulse, spark, airfow...

Have you tested the fuel? 6 weeks shouldn't be too long for fuel to go bad, but it may have been old or contaminated to begin with. Just something to double check. Take a sample in a clear bottle. Smell it and look at it up to the light. Then light a small amount on fire on the ground to make sure it ignites. You could always give it a quick spray of carb cleaner or starting fluid to make sure as well.

Does it sound like it has compression? Maybe an actual compression test may be needed to verify.
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