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Old 02-09-2012, 07:08 AM   #796
TonyBKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze_zaskar View Post
They only way of motorcycles to start being considered real transportation alternatives to cars is if we start to see full size bikes with good fuel consumption and maintenance costs. These days any big cc bike is looked at more like a big boy's toys than anything else.

My only vehicle is a XT1200Z. I ride 80km with it everyday, with any weather. The thing can do 100km/h in 4s or less, and reach 220km/h in no time with no side cases or wind. With some care I get a little under 5l/100km on my commute. It carries two people and a couple of bags of stuff.

I have a friend that has a Seat Leon 1.6TDI. The car has almost the same power as my bike, does 0-100Km/h in 11,5s, can reach 190km/h and is currently using 3,9l/100km of cheap diesel. It carries 5 people and their stuff. Plus, one can make all kinds of fun stuff on the back seat.

This is why the general public can't look at bikes with a true sense of utility. They simply make no sense for someone who's not a two wheels passionate.And what do we get with motorcycles being considered toys? More expensive insurance, less rights on the road, more expensive equipment, more taxes and manufacturers that in a few years will be making 2000cc 180hp "dual sports".

If we had more low consumption big bikes we would have more common people looking at them as alternatives and embracing them. More bikes on the road and the banalizing their usage would be better for all of us.
And all the good things of riding can be present in a moderate power, low consumption bike
I think what you're perhaps talking about is the Honda Cub? The most produced motorized vehicle on the planet.

My point being, if you want cheap economical transportation, then a cheap economical scooter might be a logical choice?

The NC700 is fuel efficient, but it sure isn't cheap...
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TonyBKK screwed with this post 02-09-2012 at 07:13 AM
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:45 AM   #797
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To marginalize this bike as some 125 scooter is just silly. You could compare it to BMW 600 scooter for whatever that costs.

It seems to fit in with the Versys and Wee, but all three seem very different. I could see there may be some advantage for the honda producing torque at low revs off road but the Wee is the master of all trades.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:14 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by bluesman View Post
Wait, I am confused...since when torque, bhp and rpms became independent measures?
They're not, of course.

What is desirable in an engine is that it have a broad spread of torque over a relatively wide range of engine speeds - whether this range of engine speeds are 2K-6K RPM or 4K-12K isn't terribly important as the 2nd bike would simply be geared twice as high making it behave exactly like the first.

I've always wondered if riders would stop being hung up on specific RPMs if tachs were simply marked as percentages of redlines. If an engine is smooth at higher RPM, there is nothing inherently better about an engine that makes its power at lower RPM.

What Honda has deliberately done with the NC is not to produce an engine with lots of low-RPM torque (its torque curve up to its redline is about the same as the 650 Strom which continues to make much more torque at higher RPM), but instead, simply limit the RPM of the engine in an effort to make it more fuel efficient and cheaper to make. Whether the small fuel savings and relatively low price of the bike are enough to offset the huge performance disadvantage compared to a higher-RPM motor remains to be seen.

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Old 02-09-2012, 10:40 AM   #799
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i like that percentage idea!
yep, about nc motor curve - I did not dare to say what you said, but was under same imoression. They just cut rpms. E.g. that would allow lighter valve springs, less losses on driving valves, less fuel by running almost too lean mix...kinda car-like approach.
Funnily enough recently Honda got sued by some woman in US for not achieving advertised fuel economy on Civic or some other model. E.g. there is customers for that kind of vehicles - economical...
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:54 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by bluesman View Post
Funnily enough recently Honda got sued by some woman in US for not achieving advertised fuel economy on Civic or some other model.
The interesting part is when you see how most US drivers drive their cars: it's binary, full acceleration (but 10 seconds too late) from a light, then hammer on the brakes for the next red light. They have no f****** clue how to drive economically, which is partly because they only ever learned on automatic transmissions and never had to learn to drive a car "properly".
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:20 AM   #801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze_zaskar View Post
They only way of motorcycles to start being considered real transportation alternatives to cars is if we start to see full size bikes with good fuel consumption and maintenance costs. These days any big cc bike is looked at more like a big boy's toys than anything else.

My only vehicle is a XT1200Z. I ride 80km with it everyday, with any weather. The thing can do 100km/h in 4s or less, and reach 220km/h in no time with no side cases or wind. With some care I get a little under 5l/100km on my commute. It carries two people and a couple of bags of stuff.

I have a friend that has a Seat Leon 1.6TDI. The car has almost the same power as my bike, does 0-100Km/h in 11,5s, can reach 190km/h and is currently using 3,9l/100km of cheap diesel. It carries 5 people and their stuff. Plus, one can make all kinds of fun stuff on the back seat.

This is why the general public can't look at bikes with a true sense of utility. They simply make no sense for someone who's not a two wheels passionate.And what do we get with motorcycles being considered toys? More expensive insurance, less rights on the road, more expensive equipment, more taxes and manufacturers that in a few years will be making 2000cc 180hp "dual sports".

If we had more low consumption big bikes we would have more common people looking at them as alternatives and embracing them. More bikes on the road and the banalizing their usage would be better for all of us.
And all the good things of riding can be present in a moderate power, low consumption bike
I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

You completely ignore the reasons why bikes/scooters are basic transportation for a good part of the world but not in America, Economics.

Gas costs twice as much in many other countries. In addition, America is vast and sparsely populated compared to many of the densely populated areas where bikes take on the role as primary transportation due to over crowded cities and short commutes. Further more, bikes are cheaper in parts of the world when you don't have to import them. Add to that the fact that Americans are extremely wealthy (at least on paper) compared to the rest of the world and can afford cars and trucks. Add all of that together and you can see why it does'nt make as much sense to buy a bike as the main mode of transportation in America.

These are some of the same reason why we don't see high speed trains in America. Basically people in other countries ride scooters and bikes and take trains because they need to. That's not the case in America. We ride them here because we like to.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #802
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Originally Posted by scooterspirit View Post
To marginalize this bike as some 125 scooter is just silly. You could compare it to BMW 600 scooter for whatever that costs.

It seems to fit in with the Versys and Wee, but all three seem very different. I could see there may be some advantage for the honda producing torque at low revs off road but the Wee is the master of all trades.
if you are not used to revving out a bike then the nc should be just fine.
those who have been riding awhile and know what happens you you spin the motor way up know what is missing.

like you said the wee motor has 2 personalities. a nice torquey usable motor for lower revs and then a huge rush at the top when you need it.
sound like the nc provides all that nice torque when you need it but doesn't provide that top hit...that's one way to keep mpg high as high rpms burns alot of fuel. would be the same effect i guess if the wee motor just had a 6000 rpm rev limiter.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:34 AM   #803
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
The interesting part is when you see how most US drivers drive their cars: it's binary, full acceleration (but 10 seconds too late) from a light, then hammer on the brakes for the next red light. They have no f****** clue how to drive economically, which is partly because they only ever learned on automatic transmissions and never had to learn to drive a car "properly".
i can agree w/ that as the auto tranny takes the feel out of the experience.
it's also the same in mexico too. people floor it to the next light jamb on the brakes. what a waste of gas and brakes. my guess is most do not know how to corner a vehicle properly and really drive it and thus just rely on that fast rush of straight acceleration as the only exciting part. can't say how many times i've been behind cars and bikes in the us and mex. and they accelerate like crazy straight ahead and then drive painfully slow when the curves hit. most people have no clue even what happens under a hood and my guess is the major of motorcyclist might not how their machines truely work either. scooter owners don't even care as it transportation only.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:42 AM   #804
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only 1 country away things are very different.
here in mex only 1-9 people own a car.
the 125/150cc scooter or motorcycle is the most affordable way to own transportation w/ a motor thus they're everywhere.

here is the workhorse - about $1200
http://www.honda.mx/motos/tool/

they look at my dr650 as a massive bike and i just laugh as it's "small" in the us. bigger is better mentality is the American disease that has forced the motorcycle mfg to respond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoitall View Post
I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

You completely ignore the reasons why bikes/scooters are basic transportation for a good part of the world but not in America, Economics.

Gas costs twice as much in many other countries. In addition, America is vast and sparsely populated compared to many of the densely populated areas where bikes take on the role as primary transportation due to over crowded cities and short commutes. Further more, bikes are cheaper in parts of the world when you don't have to import them. Add to that the fact that Americans are extremely wealthy (at least on paper) compared to the rest of the world and can afford cars and trucks. Add all of that together and you can see why it does'nt make as much sense to buy a bike as the main mode of transportation in America.

These are some of the same reason why we don't see high speed trains in America. Basically people in other countries ride scooters and bikes and take trains because they need to. That's not the case in America. We ride them here because we like to.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:45 AM   #805
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i see those old style ones everywhere here.
here's the newer one being sold. it's 100cc and also around $1500
http://www.honda.mx/motos/wave/
it has a 4 speed clutchless tranny. guess that's mexico DCT :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBKK View Post
I think what you're perhaps talking about is the Honda Cub? The most produced motorized vehicle on the planet.

My point being, if you want cheap economical transportation, then a cheap economical scooter might be a logical choice?

The NC700 is fuel efficient, but it sure isn't cheap...
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:48 AM   #806
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one thing mexico honda nailed is this bike - $6100
http://www.honda.mx/motos/falcon/
it's the legendary xr400 street legal w/ electric start.
this would make a great ds/adv bike in the US.
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:09 PM   #807
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
They're not, of course.

What is desirable in an engine is that it have a broad spread of torque over a relatively wide range of engine speeds - whether this range of engine speeds are 2K-6K RPM or 4K-12K isn't terribly important as the 2nd bike would simply be geared twice as high making it behave exactly like the first.
Totally agree, but having gone from a smaller bike to a larger one, a while back, both with broad spreads of torque, I find that the bike with the lower revving spread to be less fatiguing over a trip.

I think it was Suzuki, many years back that came out with a litre bike that actually produced good torque under 6000RPM. Very popular refinement. You could use it every day without shuffling gears constantly. This was one reason many "old farts" liked the BMW's of the day. They were just easy to use.

I suppose if you were comparing two turbine smooth motors it would work, but the smaller high revving motor was never as relaxing to ride.

That NC dyno graph, doesn't really show the speed at the time the revs are rising so it's a bit deceptive in that regard.

Anyway, I will wait till I ride one before I make any real judgments on the thing.
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:26 PM   #808
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Originally Posted by TonyBKK View Post
I think what you're perhaps talking about is the Honda Cub? The most produced motorized vehicle on the planet.
.
On my post I was obviously talking about big bikes, in the sense of <600cm3, and their use as daily vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoitall View Post
I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

You completely ignore the reasons why bikes/scooters are basic transportation for a good part of the world but not in America, Economics..
Like TonyBKK you completly ignored the many times I refered the economical BIG bikes on my post. Also, it's pretty obvious that many countries in the world are populated by small, economical scooters/bikes, but that misses the point of my post. I was talking about bike usage mainly in America and Europe (yes, there is more westernized world besides America).

Seems to me that my post was somewhat missunderstod. I was talking about how a large displacement morotcycle with low fuel consumption and maintenance can be a valid and atractive daily transport alternative in countries where car usage is the norm. Clearer now?


Edit: and yes, the NC700X, sold for 6000€ here in Portugal, can be considered a cheap bike, in the context of my post
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:29 PM   #809
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Originally Posted by mrnoitall View Post
I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

You completely ignore the reasons why bikes/scooters are basic transportation for a good part of the world but not in America, Economics.

Gas costs twice as much in many other countries. In addition, America is vast and sparsely populated compared to many of the densely populated areas where bikes take on the role as primary transportation due to over crowded cities and short commutes. Further more, bikes are cheaper in parts of the world when you don't have to import them. Add to that the fact that Americans are extremely wealthy (at least on paper) compared to the rest of the world and can afford cars and trucks. Add all of that together and you can see why it does'nt make as much sense to buy a bike as the main mode of transportation in America.

These are some of the same reason why we don't see high speed trains in America. Basically people in other countries ride scooters and bikes and take trains because they need to. That's not the case in America. We ride them here because we like to.
Yup.

ADV is a world-wide site with a USA bias; threads/posts about swapping Ohlins into a stock bike that costs $12,000+, for instance, are fairly common, but 95% of the world will never have that luxury.

I posted on another forum that the cheapest I can get a US gallon within a 10-mile radious of my house is $7.92, while some USA based riders were bristling at $3.19 a gallon.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:58 PM   #810
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Yup.

ADV is a world-wide site with a USA bias; threads/posts about swapping Ohlins into a stock bike that costs $12,000+, for instance, are fairly common, but 95% of the world will never have that luxury.
.
Half of the world's people earn less than $1000 per year, getting a bicycle is a major upgrade in economic opportunity.
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