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Old 02-12-2012, 10:48 PM   #841
Two Plugs OP
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Originally Posted by zuma View Post
Apparently Honda Australia feel that the X could take sales away from the Crossrunner (or vice versa) hence we'll only get the S.
How could that happen? It's an (in NL it is) € 6.000,- difference in price! I think both bikes appeal to different customers. And knowing that the Crossrunner already was ancient at its introduction the choice would be easy:

Buy for that money one of the last XL1000V Varadero's (oh, sorry... not available in the US... ) . For an Crossrunner pricetag you will be able to get a full spec model.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #842
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The Crossrunner mechanicals may be ancient, but hoo boy is that motor a winner! I've ridden various Viffers over the years and while loving the character of the motor, felt it was a bit weak kneed in the mid-range; not any more.

A friend of mine bought one of the last Varadero's around, he felt he got a bargain, now not so sure. He finds it too top heavy, as well as too heavy in general. He's lowered the suspension front and rear, still not happy with it. I doubt he'll have it much longer. There's a lesson there, don't just buy because a bike's cheap.

And yes, the NC700 is a very different bike. I'm very keen to ride one.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:53 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by nails1 View Post
No need for German -- just "dual-clutch transmission". Instead of a clutch between the trans and engine, it has a clutch on each countershaft. Odd-numbered gears are on one countershaft, and even ones on the other. When shifting from 1st to 2nd, 1st-gear countershaft clutch is closed, and other clutch is open. It engages 2nd gear, then opens the 1st countershaft clutch whilst closing the 2nd countershaft clutch. The clutches and shift forks are under electro-servo control, but otherwise it's just a conventional manual trans.

One journo noted that the NC needed paddling, and that automating that (DCT) made a lot of sense (he was on non-DCT). I have trouble reconciling that with the purported wide powerband. Also not sure how DCT would really feel at the NC's more pedestrian rpms. At this point, it's too much reading and too little riding. Just like your post #2 said it would be.
I just wonder how the DCT slips the clutch away from a stop. I suppose this is entirely electronically controlled.
Can you brake torque it?
Would this acheive anything?
When you brake to a stop is there any engine braking at all?
Is the takeup linear with the twist of the wrist?
Could you adust the take up?
Does the transmission shift itself down through the gears while slowing?
How does it know which gear to be in when you open the throttle again?
If you shifted with the paddles down through the gears yourself, could you do it smoothly?
Does the DCT reward finesse at all?
I havn't even driven one of the cars yet so I have no idea what to expect.

I just know that I dislike the way in which most slush pumps and CVTs "automatically" slip and lurch away from a stop.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:01 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by SlipChip View Post
I just wonder how the DCT slips the clutch away from a stop. I suppose this is entirely electronically controlled.
Can you brake torque it?
Would this acheive anything?
When you brake to a stop is there any engine braking at all?
Is the takeup linear with the twist of the wrist?
Could you adust the take up?
Does the transmission shift it self down through the gears while slowing.
If you shifted with the paddles down through the gears yourself, could you do it smoothly?
I havn't even driven one of the cars yet so I have no idea what to expect.

I just know that I dislike the way in which most slush pumps and CVTs "automatically" slip and lurch away from a stop.
Go and test ride one. It should answer all of your questions.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:16 PM   #845
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Dunno. Never driven a DCT, just read about it. And saw it in action, once. I'm sure some other inmate has it on a car or the viffer.

I understand the viffer has little flapper things that you hit with your thumb: right shifts up and left down. But I haven't even seen a DCT model. For any fully-auto mode, I'm sure there's been a lot of fuss into the algorithms, no doubt involving the wire throttle.

I don't think there's necessarily any slipper-like thing.

DCT sounds way-cool when wound out -- instantaneous shifts and engine speed change. But I'd also be curious to know how it works at more sane times (when "finesse" means something besides super-quick). Audi and VW put it in several passenger cars, so can't be that rad.

Some cars like GTR have "launch control" -- would take on a whole new meaning on a bike, I reckon.

Yeah, I look forward to just checking it out. But I'm already sure it'll be significantly different from the FJR or Mana/moped pups. That's all I was trying to say.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:01 PM   #846
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today I drove a Ford Focus rental car that uses a DCT trans. I drove it easy, and it shifts nice and quickly on it's own.
If I'm explaining it correctly, but simply the 2nd clutch is used to engage the next gear before just before it's used so the second gear is engaged before the first one is disengaged.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:36 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by nails1 View Post
Dunno. Never driven a DCT, just read about it. And saw it in action, once. I'm sure some other inmate has it on a car or the viffer.

I understand the viffer has little flapper things that you hit with your thumb: right shifts up and left down. But I haven't even seen a DCT model. For any fully-auto mode, I'm sure there's been a lot of fuss into the algorithms, no doubt involving the wire throttle.

I don't think there's necessarily any slipper-like thing.

DCT sounds way-cool when wound out -- instantaneous shifts and engine speed change. But I'd also be curious to know how it works at more sane times (when "finesse" means something besides super-quick). Audi and VW put it in several passenger cars, so can't be that rad.

Some cars like GTR have "launch control" -- would take on a whole new meaning on a bike, I reckon.

Yeah, I look forward to just checking it out. But I'm already sure it'll be significantly different from the FJR or Mana/moped pups. That's all I was trying to say.
Take a read at the VFR1200F topic. For what I understand from test ratings in motorcycle magazines, the test riders are very enthusiast about DCT as an 'gadget'. Question remains if the average motorcycle buyer is eager to have DCT or automatic transmission on a proper motorcycle. If that would be the case, the World's roads would be flocked with FJR-A's, Mana's and DCT' bikes. But that isn't the case.

It's nice for a car - but on a bike... ?
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:31 AM   #848
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Well, I must agree with Bernard. In Europe you can hardly find Mana or DN or DCT VFR on the roads. May be you see one in 3 months.
The main issue with DCT (thou it is superbly smart thing that just brilliant on cars - tested) on the bikes for real life is inability to control clutch/gear combo. It is very nice on track, but in dense populated areas here navigating traffic jams and traffic lights is not perfect with that system. One of my close friends got semi-auto FJR (he did not buy it, just got in in exchange to work done) and he says it is OK but it does take getting used to and it is not ideal in Paris where he lives. And he says that all ABS/traction control gadgets his FJR equipped with make semi-auto easier to live with.
But most difficult is when you get on any form of loose ground. It's just too difficult to have no clutch control.
I think DCT on any form or shape of dual sport bike (even behemoths based upon 1200 motor) making it definite asphalt bike killing any pretense it is dual sport.
Probably it is OK for big and heavy asphalt bikes.

But I'd love it on my car. In combination with sequential tiptronic kind of gear stick for semi-auto mode it is utterly brilliant. Tested on one of new VW cars.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:15 AM   #849
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Originally Posted by Two Plugs View Post
Question remains if the average motorcycle buyer is eager to have DCT or automatic transmission on a proper motorcycle. If that would be the case, the World's roads would be flocked with FJR-A's, Mana's and DCT' bikes. But that isn't the case.


Why? Since when does the population FLOCK to a new piece of technology ( other than the iphone?) Things like this always start slowly, especially considering the extra expense.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:35 AM   #850
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But most difficult is when you get on any form of loose ground. It's just too difficult to have no clutch control.
Good point hadn't thought of that. Yet another reason to go for the manual gearbox, the main reasons being that it's a LOT cheaper, lighter and has less to wrong with it.

I've tried the bike and the bike with the manual gearbox - it's very good.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:44 AM   #851
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maybe not flock to, but atleast gain sales and increase each year.
that shows people want something.
the FJR-A was dropped for a reason, no one wanted it.
the Manas are not flying of the shelf either.

Hondas approach is a different variation technology of the auto, something that works for the performance auto tranny crowd.
Will that be the correct kinda (semi)auto for a bike???
We're not seeing people do whatever it takes to get a new FJR, because it has this, are we?
Even the bleeding edgers are not jumping in.

maybe honda is ahead of it's time once again or maybe DCT is ideal in a car but does not translate over very well to a motorcycle.
guess we'll see.

like i said sales of the DCT 700 will be the true litmus test as it's still sub $10k and the ABS carrot is also dangled before you.
guess we'll see.

either way i do hope Honda is successful in the US in the ADV category as they got burned on "ahead of there time in the US" bikes in the past and now they've almost given up. hopefully they are turning the corner and will bring in the CRF250L and create a CRF700L too. ADV/DS bikes are working for everyone else these days.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:09 AM   #852
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either way i do hope Honda is successful in the US in the ADV category as they got burned on "ahead of there time in the US" bikes in the past and now they've almost given up. hopefully they are turning the corner and will bring in the CRF250L and create a CRF700L too. ADV/DS bikes are working for everyone else these days.
That's very wishful thinking with regards to the CRF700L! They've made a big deal about the X, S and Integra all sharing the same frame and engine, be intereting to see if they could build something more dual-purpose around this platform. They've certainly got room for an auxilliary fuel tank
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:17 AM   #853
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That's very wishful thinking with regards to the CRF700L! They've made a big deal about the X, S and Integra all sharing the same frame and engine, be intereting to see if they could build something more dual-purpose around this platform. They've certainly got room for an auxilliary fuel tank
i was not thinking at all about the NCs frame platform nor engine, but rather a replacement of the xr650L which is way long in the tooth as not future epa requirement complaint.

i'm talking about this 700 FI thumper motor
http://powersports.honda.com/2009/tr...ns/engine.aspx
in a sized up frame/suspension like found on the new CRF250L
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...50l/19469.html
with a decent gas tank.

even though not in the US, yamaha has their modern 650 class DS in place and suzuki and kawasaki will need to do something too to update theirs. suzuki and kawi sell alot in this class and will not just walk away from the party. honda reluctantly keeps selling the xrL because they've got nothing else to replace.

what i'm saying from above is i hope honda increases it's offering in the DS/ADV category meaning CRF250L in the US, new XR650L, bring in the Crosstour and maybe even the TA to compete w/ the strom.
the US ADV market is ripe for expansion. that's were we are finding most all of our sales growth for what we do!
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:08 PM   #854
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Eureka!!!

Yes, this is what we need I own DRZ400SM I made mistake I never ride to its potential a little one little jump a few inches and I'm having a blast. What I really need is a 6th gear a nice fairing and bigger tank of gas. Was looking at Stram and DL650. I thought DL650 was the closest because of it cheaper price then the Stram, but it has no bags for my friends stuff when we see the country and it has no fairing at all for the enviroment. I wasn't really meeting what I wanted for a tour bike with my R1200GS. Basically, Honda has been missing this model from it line for a a long, time. Why I have no idea they miss such important class of bike for so long. The DRZ400E/SM small tourer for a friend to keep up with R1200GS. They have 650 endure which wasn't making for me. My DRZ400SM again for local town use is great and dirt its more then enough but on high ways town to town it not enough.

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Old 02-14-2012, 01:31 PM   #855
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Eureka!!!

Yes, this is what we need I own DRZ400SM I made mistake I never ride to its potential a little jump a few inches and I'm having a blast. What I really need is a 6th gear on the DRZ at strum and DL650 I thought DL650 was the closest, but it has no lock down bags and no fairing for the enviroment. I wasn't really meeting what I wanted for a tour bike with my R1200GS aside it. Honda has been missing this model from it's so line for a long time. They have 650DL enduros which was a very old design no fairing an limited bag options. My DRZ400SM again for local town use is great and dirt its more than enough, but on highways it's not enough bike. Just going to my sister house and hour away I have to fill it up once each way. This new bike is perfect in my view. I can finally have my friend in toe with me. The bags are ugly, but I'm not riding it. It's like F800GS for half the price. I would't buy BMW F800GS for my buddy to ride with me (beggars can't be choosers), but i would buy this bike it perfect for all my complaints on endure that for touring. Nice Job Honda!!!

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