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Old 06-23-2013, 06:02 AM   #481
PSchrauber
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Originally Posted by Gordo83 View Post
I'm not sure how the latest year they will except, such as a 1979 Bultaco 199, would look out of place at an ahrma event. Especially considering there were 56 bikes of the same style "Classic" and "Modern Classic" and there were only 16 in all the "Premier" classes combined, for the first 4 events of this year.
To be honest where is the differences between a bike from 1979 and from 1982?

To the Bultaco Sherpa the model 199 was introduced in 1977, an update was released in 1979, with model 199a:
- color change from red to blue,
- strengthened swing arm,
- new ignition side case,
- replaceable bashplate made out of aluminium,
instead of frame tubes that got flatened easy.

In 1981 another update of the model 199 was released, (Bultaco did not have the money to introduce a new model):
- color change of the frame in white,
- cut rear loop of the frame,
- again strengthening of the swing arm, now with rectangle tubes,
- a six speed gearbox, ( this was an improvement), but which came already much too late if you compare the bike to other brands which released 6 speed gearboxes already in the mid sixties.

This just as an example that a cut which is made by year and not by technical spec's is not facing the reality.

It would be better to divide the twinshocks in early and late ones by technical spec's than years of build. Then later real twinshocks of the beginning 80's have a chance to participate and riders of early models would have a chance in competition too.

We don't have to forget the future, in a couple of years aircooled monoshock bikes are over 30 years an then you can count them classic / historic too.

It's likewise with the new rules in trials they are a step in the right direction, but need to be improved, (here I want to mention that at last the very stupid exception that a dab / setting a foot while the bike is not rolling is now eliminated, this step backwards in trials evolution is luckily gone - hopefully for ever -).

Anyway I believe that if we want to get a progress in classic and modern trials we need to really look back how this sport was intended and how the development of the bikes was done.
I believe that we have for a better future devide the classic bikes in technical specs with original as possible components (or contemporary replacements), so there would not be too much competition in technical set up and keep the sport price worthy which isn't in the pre 65 class anymore. For riding the foreward movement is essential, balancing and standing still without dab should be allowed backward rolling even a mm should get 5 points and hopping around without moving should be limited to one hop any additional hop that doesn't get you forward should again counted as 5.

Then we would have the modern skills integrated and still one of the main task of trials in focus which is finding and using the right track inside a section. This was for a too long time forgotten and have to be used again.

Just my 0.02 €, feel free to state something different.

PSchrauber screwed with this post 06-23-2013 at 01:19 PM
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:25 AM   #482
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I've ridden a couple vintage trials events in Canada that seemed to have no issue accomodating older (albeit well ridden) pre-65 bikes and twin shocks up to a couple early 80's SWMs.
CVMG events? I've been involved with organizing and riding such for over 25 years now. Never had trouble accomodating pre-65 and later twinshock models in events, at least with suitable terrain and a little thought. Even a few monos are allowed to play as a "demonstration" class and no one gets turned away. You have to move with the times to keep the numbers coming out...particularly with a fringe offshoot of an already fringe sport!

For perspective, an early monoshock is now as old as my Ariel HT5 would have been when "vintage" events started in my area!
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:21 PM   #483
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I get the feeling that ITSA has things pretty much right with its idea of rules, as there seems to be a class for just about every rider, on anything from a 56 rigid, to a 315R with 2 shocks bolted on.

Here in the UK there are a lot of problems if you choose to twin-shock a cheap old air cooled mono, while a modern Brit powered twin-shock costing £10k+ is perfectly acceptable in the "P65" class......................
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:23 AM   #484
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CVMG events?
Speaking of which I recently came across the flyer for this year's Ormstown Vintage Off-Road Festival. This might be a better thread to post in then the modern upcoming events.
It was a great event and am hoping to go back. Looks like Mick Andrews is back as MC!

I'm not involved in organizing but info here: http://www.rocler.qc.ca/ariane/VORF.htm

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #485
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You will have a blast at Ormstown!! Three days of Vintage Trials, counting the Mick Andrews Trials School, which is worth every penny. I have been there two years. I would be there again this year if the ISDTRR wasn't the same weekend. After this year I will be back for evey event they have.
And they don't turn anyone away. Air-cooled, drum brakes and twin shocks are the only requirements. And the grass track MX, as well as the Cross Country is too much fun; so bring more than your Trials bike.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #486
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You will have a blast at Ormstown!! Three days of Vintage Trials, counting the Mick Andrews Trials School, which is worth every penny.
+1.

I missed last year but expect to back this year with a functioning bike! A re-post of some pics from last year here:
http://sasquatchvintageracing.smugmug.com/VintageMotocross/Ormstown-2012-Trials/25056611_ZQHGbS#!i=2053190070&k=d96c4xm

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Old 07-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #487
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I'd like to add a little background to the "downfall" of AHRMA vintage trials from someone that was right in the middle of it for quite a few years.
For years there was a battle between the guys that wanted to ride a trial for fun and the "Trials guys". The guys that wanted to ride as a sidebar to their weekend of MXing wanted the sections to be simple easy line sections. Where the problem came from is that these riders also wanted to be called "Expert" because they were expert MXers. They would bitch and moan that the sections were too difficult for their motorcycles while the "Trials guys" would complain because it was a cake walk for them.
As the guy who was laying out between 3 and 5 AHRMA national trials a year it became a very stressful situation for me. So after 10 years of doing it, my brother and I called it quits.
If people who complained knew what it is like putting in 40 or more hours so that they could have fun just to be bitched at feels like, their tune would change.
Anyway, the last year I was really active in vintage trials we were getting upwards of 70 riders at each of the 3 nationals here in Illinois. Now there will be a national at White City this September, I bet that there won't be 20 riders. Kind of the opposite of "Build it and they will come".
What vintage trials needs is someone to step up and put on the events. The person needs to have thick skin and a strong willingness to work.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #488
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Thanks for your efforts Nodab. We fixed it with a new ITSA club. MXer`s have always been funny, riding the same track that a 6 year old could get around. I think that is why Endurocross is now so popular!
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:14 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Nodabs View Post
I'd like to add a little background to the "downfall" of AHRMA vintage trials from someone that was right in the middle of it for quite a few years.
For years there was a battle between the guys that wanted to ride a trial for fun and the "Trials guys". The guys that wanted to ride as a sidebar to their weekend of MXing wanted the sections to be simple easy line sections. Where the problem came from is that these riders also wanted to be called "Expert" because they were expert MXers. They would bitch and moan that the sections were too difficult for their motorcycles while the "Trials guys" would complain because it was a cake walk for them.
As the guy who was laying out between 3 and 5 AHRMA national trials a year it became a very stressful situation for me. So after 10 years of doing it, my brother and I called it quits.
If people who complained knew what it is like putting in 40 or more hours so that they could have fun just to be bitched at feels like, their tune would change.
Anyway, the last year I was really active in vintage trials we were getting upwards of 70 riders at each of the 3 nationals here in Illinois. Now there will be a national at White City this September, I bet that there won't be 20 riders. Kind of the opposite of "Build it and they will come".
What vintage trials needs is someone to step up and put on the events. The person needs to have thick skin and a strong willingness to work.

As the person who set the sections, I wonder if you would be able to clarify whether or not the idea of Dick Mann wanting the going to be suitable for rigid Gold Star BSA, was in fact the case?

If so it seems to me catering for less than 1% of entrants to AHRMA events, is probably the main reason thy are not viable today?
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #490
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I was always told that the #4 line should be passable for a person on a pre-war motorcycle. The rule of thumb was if a kid on a mountain bicycle could ride through, you were good.
We once had a meeting between the east coast and west cost guys where there were arguments about how easy or hard the sections should be. The main difference between the two sides was whether trials should be a growth sport within AHRMA. The west coast guys were all bike builders who wanted to sell more motorcycles. The east coast guys wanted the sport to be trials, not zero's. I fall somewhat on the no zero's side of the argument. Bob Ginder fell so far on that side that he formed ITSA.
I have no problem with Dick Mann's vision of what trials was, but time moves on.
I have 2 Dick Mann trials bikes, a B40 and a Alloy Clipper Goldstar. I rode both on either the 2 line or the PI line, You really have to work to ride the Goldstar, truthfully it isn't real fun when you figure out that your gas tank would cost $1K to replace.
I think that the big takeaway from this is to remember that people were trying to make a living off of this small time sport. Not to say that it is wrong, but remember that money changes everything. Everyone has a agenda. Mine was to have fun!
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Old 07-09-2013, 01:18 AM   #491
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I was always told that the #4 line should be passable for a person on a pre-war motorcycle. The rule of thumb was if a kid on a mountain bicycle could ride through, you were good.
We once had a meeting between the east coast and west cost guys where there were arguments about how easy or hard the sections should be. The main difference between the two sides was whether trials should be a growth sport within AHRMA. The west coast guys were all bike builders who wanted to sell more motorcycles. The east coast guys wanted the sport to be trials, not zero's. I fall somewhat on the no zero's side of the argument. Bob Ginder fell so far on that side that he formed ITSA.
I have no problem with Dick Mann's vision of what trials was, but time moves on.
I have 2 Dick Mann trials bikes, a B40 and a Alloy Clipper Goldstar. I rode both on either the 2 line or the PI line, You really have to work to ride the Goldstar, truthfully it isn't real fun when you figure out that your gas tank would cost $1K to replace.
I think that the big takeaway from this is to remember that people were trying to make a living off of this small time sport. Not to say that it is wrong, but remember that money changes everything. Everyone has a agenda. Mine was to have fun!

I take it then that AHRMA events are currently attracting large entries of riders on pre-war and post war rigid bikes, and catering for the older bikes, and not including classes for the later and more easily available twin-shocks is good for the sport in general?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:10 AM   #492
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I see that a support class is offered at Hannegan speedway in Bellingham.
“* A Support Class will be offered for riders of trials motorcycles 1980 and newer”
http://www.ahrmanw.com/aMX_BellinghamWA.htm
This event attracted 35 or 40 riders last year.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:10 PM   #493
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Anyway, the last year I was really active in vintage trials we were getting upwards of 70 riders at each of the 3 nationals here in Illinois. Now there will be a national at White City this September, I bet that there won't be 20 riders. Kind of the opposite of "Build it and they will come". What vintage trials needs is someone to step up and put on the events. The person needs to have thick skin and a strong willingness to work.
I've noticed a similar drop in turnouts in recent years even riding in an area with a very inclusive rule structure. I think a lot of the problem with vintage trials now is not the vintage bikes but the vintage riders ...who eventually find riding off-road events too much like hard work. The Triumph Cubs, BSA Bantams, C-15s (and their riders) that used to be common are mostly gone, though still parked in garages somewhere no doubt. Even the older Spanish bikes are disappearing here as the riders who do come out are less likely to relate to the older bikes and more likely to have a 1980's twinshock or early monoshock, which we have accomodated for some time now. Excluding them would have been death to these events.

As mentioned previously, the early monos are now older then the earliest Bultacos were when I first started riding and organizing "vintage" events in my region! Only I it seems have been dumb enough to move from a perfectly good Japanese twinshock to a British pre-65 lump!
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:01 PM   #494
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roadholder,
You made me think back of how long ago I started vintage trials. 1989 was 24 years ago. My BSA B40 was 24 years old then. So it sounds perfectly logical that motorcycles from '89 should be more than old enough now.
What everyone is fighting within AHRMA is that the people that started it wanted to preserve their early years on a motorcycle. Unfortunately they have all gotten too old to ride at any level, so their motorcycles are put back. Now a younger generation comes up and wants to ride the motorcycles of their youth, but the older guys don't want to let their idealized memory's fall to the wayside, so they fight false tooth and nail to prevent the newer stuff from being used.
Just a changing of the guard thing. Time will fix everything.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:42 PM   #495
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roadholder,
You made me think back of how long ago I started vintage trials. 1989 was 24 years ago. My BSA B40 was 24 years old then. So it sounds perfectly logical that motorcycles from '89 should be more than old enough now.
What everyone is fighting within AHRMA is that the people that started it wanted to preserve their early years on a motorcycle. Unfortunately they have all gotten too old to ride at any level, so their motorcycles are put back. Now a younger generation comes up and wants to ride the motorcycles of their youth, but the older guys don't want to let their idealized memory's fall to the wayside, so they fight false tooth and nail to prevent the newer stuff from being used.
Just a changing of the guard thing. Time will fix everything.
When they could be acommodating the newer riders that would support their sport so the dinosaurs could still ride. More riders = more observers, more section builders, more photographers...

Just because you have real Trials lines for the better equipment doesn't mean the lines for the dinosaurs need to be harder. That's why there are four or more lines in every section. Just as in modern Trials there needs to be a line for everyone.
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