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Old 12-16-2011, 02:41 PM   #91
SnoDrtRider
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Alpina / Sherpa T

I am looking at both an Alpina and Sherpa T tomorrow.
I am interested in getting into Vintage trials with use in the woods in between. I always liked the Alpina from when they were new as a kid and am leaning toward one of those.
I have read that the Alpina uses the same frame as the Sherpa, if so what are the differences besides having a more comfortable seat?
Will the Alpina be acceptable for use in trials?
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:21 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoDrtRider View Post
I am looking at both an Alpina and Sherpa T tomorrow.
I am interested in getting into Vintage trials with use in the woods in between. I always liked the Alpina from when they were new as a kid and am leaning toward one of those.
I have read that the Alpina uses the same frame as the Sherpa, if so what are the differences besides having a more comfortable seat?
Will the Alpina be acceptable for use in trials?
Sadly the Alpina is not so useful for trials riding, it is a trails bike more for use of riding enduro like in thight woods.

The Story behind the Alpina is a demand of the Bultaco Importer in USA that wanted a Sherpa T "Woods" for the US customer for trial-hiking in 1970. The Sherpa T was already a little bit to uncomfortable and specialized. So Paco Bultó decided to build a new model that had some differences to the Sherpa T:

- different frame geometry, expecially th steering geometry was changed,
- different tires,
- different suspension and longer travel,
- more comfortable seat,
- a bigger gas tank,

with 1972 they changed the engine too:
- different displacement with a longer con-rod for the 350cc
- different displacement with a smaller barrel/Piston for the 250cc
- modiefied an longer rocker-arm,
- different flywheel.

later they changed the gears too, (I have forgotten when).

As you see there are plenty of differences between the bikes. If you have the possibility I would take a Sherpa model T for trials riding not an Alpina. The Alpina will always be a little to fast, will not turn so thight, will be much heavier and the engine characteristics are different too.

For the Sherpa T model you can divide the different models in sections of development:

early bikes, from model 10, 27 to 49
and the in between the model 80 from 1971/72

first evolution, model 91/92, (250cc/350cc), 150/151, 1972 - 1975,

second evolution, model 158/159, 182/183, 190/191
and the in between model 198/199, 1975 - 1978

third evolution, model 198A/199A, 1978 - 1981

fourth evolution model 198B/198B, 1981,
(and later ones from 1982 up to 1985 made from the remaining workers from Bultaco at the Derbi factory that could not find a new job after the bankrupty of Bultaco in 1982 using remining spare parts for the build up)

For getting into vintage trials any bike starting with model 80 or 91/92 are easy to start with, the 350cc is a 350cc power plant and can exhaust you physically easier, expecially the latest 199B model which got additional cc.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:29 PM   #93
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Thanks for the quick reply!
The same person who is the local Spanish bike guru has both bikes so looking at both of them is not a problem... they are both 350's.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:28 PM   #94
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I was told the early alpinas were very close to the sherpa T's the later ones not so much. Posting in the bultaco section might clear this up a bit more.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
I was told the early alpinas were very close to the sherpa T's the later ones not so much. Posting in the bultaco section might clear this up a bit more.
I didn't realize there was a Bultaco section... Off I go!
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:48 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
I was told the early alpinas were very close to the sherpa T's the later ones not so much. Posting in the bultaco section might clear this up a bit more.
May be your source mixed up something, maybe my english can be misunderstood:

Differences between the Sherpa T and the first Alpina in 1971:

- different frame geometry, expecially the steering geometry was changed,
- different tires,
- different suspension and longer travel,
- more comfortable seat,
- a bigger gas tank,

later additional differences from 1972 on:
- different displacement with a longer con-rod for the 350cc
- different displacement with a smaller barrel/Piston for the 250cc
- modiefied an longer rocker-arm,
- different flywheel.

Just looked up the information again from:

Francisco Herreros Alfraro: "Bultaco - La Pasión por el Depoorte", 1997,

nothing to add!
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:43 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoDrtRider View Post
I didn't realize there was a Bultaco section... Off I go!
Sorry I was thinking I was posting on trials central forum. There is no bultaco forum on adv. Here ya go
http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/forum/71-bultaco/
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:42 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
I was told the early alpinas were very close to the sherpa T's the later ones not so much. Posting in the bultaco section might clear this up a bit more.

Same cylinder, etc but with Matador gear box if I remember right. Like 90% of the M49 Sherpa Ts were never trials ridden, but rather were on the trails that Bultaco took advantage of their new found knowledge and built the thicker seated, MX barred, better geared Alpina to meet the market need. All the grunt and handling while being able to comfortably sit and trail ride.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:48 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchrauber View Post
Sadly the Alpina is not so useful for trials riding, it is a trails bike more for use of riding enduro like in thight woods.

The Story behind the Alpina is a demand of the Bultaco Importer in USA that wanted a Sherpa T "Woods" for the US customer for trial-hiking in 1970. The Sherpa T was already a little bit to uncomfortable and specialized. So Paco Bultó decided to build a new model that had some differences to the Sherpa T:

- different frame geometry, expecially th steering geometry was changed,
- different tires,
- different suspension and longer travel,
- more comfortable seat,
- a bigger gas tank,

with 1972 they changed the engine too:
- different displacement with a longer con-rod for the 350cc
- different displacement with a smaller barrel/Piston for the 250cc
- modiefied an longer rocker-arm,
- different flywheel.

later they changed the gears too, (I have forgotten when).

As you see there are plenty of differences between the bikes. If you have the possibility I would take a Sherpa model T for trials riding not an Alpina. The Alpina will always be a little to fast, will not turn so thight, will be much heavier and the engine characteristics are different too.

For the Sherpa T model you can divide the different models in sections of development:

early bikes, from model 10, 27 to 49
and the in between the model 80 from 1971/72

first evolution, model 91/92, (250cc/350cc), 150/151, 1972 - 1975,

second evolution, model 158/159, 182/183, 190/191
and the in between model 198/199, 1975 - 1978

third evolution, model 198A/199A, 1978 - 1981

fourth evolution model 198B/198B, 1981,
(and later ones from 1982 up to 1985 made from the remaining workers from Bultaco at the Derbi factory that could not find a new job after the bankrupty of Bultaco in 1982 using remining spare parts for the build up)

For getting into vintage trials any bike starting with model 80 or 91/92 are easy to start with, the 350cc is a 350cc power plant and can exhaust you physically easier, expecially the latest 199B model which got additional cc.
I personally have an M27 bought used in 1971. The M10 was initially built and sold between 65 and 67, the M27 went from roughly 67-68 or so with the M49 coming I think in 69 up to around 73. Then the newer sleeker seat/tank set up came around with the 250 and 350, with a newer better frame.

My M27 is more or less a period modified bike with DID rims and a few other changes. I'm considering selling it this next year, possibly at Mid Ohio. It's matching numbers #M27-00242 if I remember right. It's up at my parent's place so I can not verify. It' even has a NOS Xduser silencer on it at the moment, the Sammy Miller alloy expansion box is quite loud.
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Old 12-18-2011, 05:51 PM   #100
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pja9Y7JIJBg enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4110D...eature=related (part two)
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welder screwed with this post 12-18-2011 at 06:00 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:49 AM   #101
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Sweeeeeet!
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:01 AM   #102
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The alpina is about as much a trials bike, as the yamaha dt250 is like the ty250... PERIOD.

People that didnt ride trials back in those days, wont also understand even the stuff you couldtn see, like the the timing and porting, ignition timing, gearing, of a trials bike, more than nowdays I believe, was to attempt to have a smooth idle-in-gear, clutch out, that you crack the throttle to lift front wheel, nobody pulled the clutch back then, well the big dogs did.

A race or "dirt enduro" type bike, has absolutely nothing in common with this tuning! I had many bikes back then. "non trials" bikes, you know damn well, to get it to even move back then, you rev and slip the clutch, and if it was racey at all, you never went below half throttle on a mx bike, unless you wanted to be out of the powerband, and also risk fouling plugs lol...

Anyway, point is, trials purposed bikes, from 1970 on have so damn many things that they spent months and years developing, designing. Hell you could buy exhaust parts, swap carbs, all kinds of things to make it even more capable for trials, than anyting else. Hell, pro's or top club riders with friends of dealers in the know, were taking stock bikes, and changing the rake of front end even steeper and quicker than factory. Adding to swingarms, chanign pivit locations, moving pegs, changing shock locations...

Just like now, how it is possible for a new TRIALS bikes where stock tires are like 10% of the weight of the bike? They even make "lighter" version of stock tires now. My 10 pro, I think was rated at less than 142 lbs? shit, in 74 that bultaco sherpa probably came in at 230, if it weighed a pound. My 79 was heavy still at had to be like 210lbs. and hell the 240 fantic which is light by comparison, will wear your ass out, trying to ride trials nowdays... least it does me!
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:06 PM   #103
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As the OP to a trials bike stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoDrtRider View Post
Alpina / Sherpa T

...
I am interested in getting into Vintage trials with use in the woods in between.
...
If you are interested in getting into vintage trials, the later Sherpas are much more competitive
then the early ones as the developedment never stopped. For using the bike also in the woods
the Sherpas will do this job too, in my personal experience there is no real draw back in woods
beside try to do any serious riding on the road. The seat high is still high enough to sit
comfortable and it is still a real seat too. The engine is a real puller with lots of torque and the
last gears are real overdrive gears so you can still go fast in the woods too.

If none of the bikes you will look at fullfill your demands try to get a later Sherpa, best would be
model 199a and newer as they have a real bash plate under the engine and you don't have these
commen issues of deformend lower frames tubes under the engine.

If the bash plate is worn out you cut out a new out of 5-6mm aluminium drill some holes and
replace the plate.

A 199a:


The model 199a was made in bigger numbers, so it should not be so diffecult to get one, this type was also build
as a 250cc bike, (model 198a),

If you really want a "predator" try to get a model 199b and do some contemporary mods like they do in Europe,
for comparison an older Bultaco Sherpa model 49 one the left and a model 199b on the right side:

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Old 12-22-2011, 07:14 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoDrtRider View Post
I am looking at both an Alpina and Sherpa T tomorrow.
I am interested in getting into Vintage trials with use in the woods in between. I always liked the Alpina from when they were new as a kid and am leaning toward one of those.
I have read that the Alpina uses the same frame as the Sherpa, if so what are the differences besides having a more comfortable seat?
Will the Alpina be acceptable for use in trials?
There's a nice looking and fairly local to you Alpina here: http://www.mid-atlantictrials.com/Classified.html

What organization do you plan to ride with? You might find useful general info here: http://www.mid-atlantictrials.com/
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:06 PM   #105
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Classic Trial Magazine

Has anyone seen a copy of this new UK-based magazine? A first I think for vintage trials? Some interesting articles from what I can see. Might try and get my hands on a copy.

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