ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Beasts > The British Invasion: Triumph Tigers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

View Results: Explorer or Explorer/XC
Explorer 0 0%
Explorer/xc 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-05-2012, 06:44 AM   #1846
norseXL
Gnarly Adventurer
 
norseXL's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: On a rock called Norway
Oddometer: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
My understanding is a German bike mag dynoed a press bike they had from a BMW alongside a 'regular' bike.

This is not negative advertising at all, it's just pointing out how BMW are lying bastards and good for them for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Has BMW responded I wonder
All I se is a graph that says Triumph at the bottom with curves from some third party run plotted inn.
Just to make a point, the curve beneeth show the results from when I last dynoed my own bike with less than 5 min betwen the runs. No it´s not a BMW, it´s just to prove a point.




Notice the difference, same day, same bike.
As for negative advertising, your wrong. This is exactly what NA is about.
Triumphs people showing a graph, then saying jouralists not pulicating it, c´mon they are not that stupid, neither is I.
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.
__________________
Weiter, weiter ins Verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben.
Rammstein.
norseXL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #1847
Mercury264
Once you go Triple...
 
Mercury264's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Masshole
Oddometer: 22,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by norseXL View Post
All I se is a graph that says Triumph at the bottom with curves from some third party run plotted inn.
Just to make a point, the curve beneeth show the results from when I last dynoed my own bike with less than 5 min betwen the runs. No it´s not a BMW, it´s just to prove a point.




Notice the difference, same day, same bike.
As for negative advertising, your wrong. This is exactly what NA is about.
Triumphs people showing a graph, then saying jouralists not pulicating it, c´mon they are not that stupid, neither is I.
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.


More like they know damn well they got caught

They weren't the ones who came up with the graph, nor were they the ones that first published it (AFAIK).
__________________
'12 Tiger 800XC
'07 TE510
'02 Sprint ST
'99 XR650L
'99 Speed Triple
Mercury264 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 07:02 AM   #1848
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by norseXL View Post
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.
No, instead of explaining the "discrepancy", they'd rather rant about how other manufacturers copy the idea (beak) that BMW copied from Suzuki.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 07:06 AM   #1849
Daytonacharlie
2 Wheeled Backpacker
 
Daytonacharlie's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Grayson, Ga.
Oddometer: 233
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/...md-first-ride/
__________________
1996 Triumph Daytona 1200
Daytonacharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 07:07 AM   #1850
Bundu
===============
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Oddometer: 636
I hope I haven't upset some of you ladies here.......

If one looks at the graphs, I honestly think it is no big deal and I'm quite sure you would get bigger differences in power and torque between other identical bikes.
At some rpm's the press bikes are even worse than market BMW, so possibly no evil intended by BMW.
I have however heard that the Triumph graphs are at the engin, whereas the BMW graphs are at the wheel - if true, I think THAT would be unfair by Triumph, without explicitly stating it
Bundu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 07:50 AM   #1851
Future ten
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Future ten's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Tampa fl
Oddometer: 205
So now it's engine dyno and rear wheel dyno on the same graph? I have a hard time believing any of it. The problem is, ya don't get a take back on the iterwebs and the lies and slander are world wide already. BMW has built a pretty strong machine always. (i have a triumph) and the negative BS is just that. Win a test on your stregths not the weakness of the others.
__________________
Semper Fi.
Future ten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 09:22 AM   #1852
Bundu
===============
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Oddometer: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Future ten View Post
So now it's engine dyno and rear wheel dyno on the same graph? I have a hard time believing any of it. The problem is, ya don't get a take back on the iterwebs and the lies and slander are world wide already. BMW has built a pretty strong machine always. (i have a triumph) and the negative BS is just that. Win a test on your stregths not the weakness of the others.
look, I also don't think that the one graph is engine and the other at wheel - looking at both graphs, they peak near the specified maximum power for each bike, so it seems both are at the engine
Bundu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 11:35 AM   #1853
markjenn
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Swellvue, WA
Oddometer: 10,399
The differences in those dyno graphs for the BMWs appear well within the bounds of normal sample-to-sample variance. If the dyno runs weren't on same dyno at the same time, then this adds further variance.

It has been SOP for decades for mfgs to supply the press with bikes that are carefully prepped and represent the best samples they can pull off the assembly line (or the prototype line for a new bike). I don't think there is anything wrong with this. You want to put your best foot forward, so you supply the best sample you have. And I fully expect Triumph has done this also.

I also fully expect that when Triumph decided to make their point, they cherry-picked their data to make it, finding a production bike that was on the low side of average and a press bike on the high side.

What is wrong is supplying bikes that have parts, tuning, ECUs, etc. that are not the same as the bikes they ship to customers. Has BMW been accused of this?

I like this Explorer and Triumphs in general, but I think Triumph started down the wrong road with this mud-slinging campaign. To throw this out at a press event pitching a new motorcycle strikes me as something done by a junior marketing person trying to make their splash in the company. I expect when upper mgmt found out about this, they wanted nothing to do with it. The fact Triumph is now wanting to back away from the story does not surprise me.

The Explorers are good enough they don't need to distract from the bike by getting involved in something petty like this.

- Mark
markjenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #1854
RaY YreKa
I Am the Mayor
 
RaY YreKa's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: YreKa BaKery
Oddometer: 16,255
A general point about providing ringers to the press; in the last couple of year Aprilia and Suzuki were caught making mods to launch bikes. IIRC they were fairly minor, such as jacking up the suspension at the rear or having slightly different forks.

What BMW are accused of here is a greater step, doctoring long-termers rather than just one-off test bikes. The fact that the press bikes were tuned for better top-end doesn't surprise me, as most journos come from a sport-bike background and revving the nuts off bikes comes naturally to them.

My hunch would be that BMW were trying to slake that thirst, in a way, either to get more 1200GS models in the long-term tests, or mollify what they perceived as journos dissing the bike for non-sporty credentials. For all we know the journos may have practically begged for a tuned boxer.

Back to the Aprilia and Suzuki examples, both these instances of fudging were reported quite clearly in launch reports. So far it's pretty quiet on the BMW front. In Europe, where the 1200GS/ADV is by far the best selling bike over 500cc, I'd guess this is not to upset the sponsors.
__________________
IBA #40578

shine on, you crazy emo diamond
RaY YreKa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 11:46 AM   #1855
moggi1964
Tiger Keeper
 
moggi1964's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: Madison, NJ
Oddometer: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
The differences in those dyno graphs for the BMWs appear well within the bounds of normal sample-to-sample variance. If the dyno runs weren't on same dyno at the same time, then this adds further variance.

It has been SOP for decades for mfgs to supply the press with bikes that are carefully prepped and represent the best samples they can pull off the assembly line (or the prototype line for a new bike). I don't think there is anything wrong with this. You want to put your best foot forward, so you supply the best sample you have. And I fully expect Triumph has done this also.

I also fully expect that when Triumph decided to make their point, they cherry-picked their data to make it, finding a production bike that was on the low side of average and a press bike on the high side.

What is wrong is supplying bikes that have parts, tuning, ECUs, etc. that are not the same as the bikes they ship to customers. Has BMW been accused of this?

I like this Explorer and Triumphs in general, but I think Triumph started down the wrong road with this mud-slinging campaign. To throw this out at a press event pitching a new motorcycle strikes me as something done by a junior marketing person trying to make their splash in the company. I expect when upper mgmt found out about this, they wanted nothing to do with it. The fact Triumph is now wanting to back away from the story does not surprise me.

The Explorers are good enough they don't need to distract from the bike by getting involved in something petty like this.

- Mark
I think the point that was being made about the curves was not so much that they differed per se (as the later graph supplied by norseXL showed this can easily happen) but more to do with the shift of the output to the higher rev range where most journo's are known to live.

NorseXL, you may notice that your two lines were almost identical in the path they followed; the BMW one's look like a different 'tune' to me.

I don't think it matters anymore, they aren't likely to risk it again if they did in the first place. The watercooled BM will be an interesting bike when it appears and will likely sell very well. Personally, I just want to own a Triumph!

And as for the war http://youtu.be/7xnNhzgcWTk Let's not get too bogged down in history, chaps - let bygones be bygones okay!
__________________
Moggi1964

Triumph Explorer
moggi1964 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 12:36 PM   #1856
Bundu
===============
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Oddometer: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_rev View Post
A general point about providing ringers to the press; in the last couple of year Aprilia and Suzuki were caught making mods to launch bikes. IIRC they were fairly minor, such as jacking up the suspension at the rear or having slightly different forks.
they should do it the South African way:
A dealer supplied the press here with the newly launched XT1200Z in 2010, with out of order ABS......

The XT1200Z has just been voted the Adventure bike with the best brakes in the 8 bike MCN test
Bundu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 12:39 PM   #1857
cug
--
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Sunny California
Oddometer: 4,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Your sig kinda shows where you come down here Fritz. Why don't you get the facts before you step in your own poop?
You are not making things any better by fairly stupidly stereotyping. And being rude against Germans. Not the way to go.
cug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 01:07 PM   #1858
norseXL
Gnarly Adventurer
 
norseXL's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: On a rock called Norway
Oddometer: 220
And by the way, I have never ovned a BMW and never will. I´m a Sportster man and will always be
__________________
Weiter, weiter ins Verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben.
Rammstein.
norseXL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 01:26 PM   #1859
Bundu
===============
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Oddometer: 636
HEY, IF ANYBODY IS TIRED OF THIS CRAP TALKING AND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THE NEW EXPLORER

http://www.tiger-explorer.com/index.php/board,1.0.html
Bundu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 02:55 PM   #1860
Hogslayer
motomaniac
 
Hogslayer's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: 37.7 miles west of the Donner Party!
Oddometer: 140
...HP Charts are just numbers...

Though numbers,charts and graphs are nice to look at and compare with other bikes, unless I was in the market for a superbike to race at the track I could care less what numbers say.

For this type of bike do you really need anything over 100hp I'd rather have loads of torque instead, at least for here in the states you can only go triple digits for so long before you get busted. That is the one thing I always had to watch out for on my S3 was to keep it under the speed limit when I was screwing around.

If people bought bikes because of numbers why are there so many Harley's sold ? Their the heaviest and lowest performance bikes on the road but there all over the place. (Don't bother I've allready heard all the reasons)

First - I have to like the looks of the bike to begin with.
Second- I need to sit on the the bike for myself and see how it feels to me, not someone else.
Third- I have to ride the bike and I will either like it or not but I will make the decision myself .

If you need numbers(numbers don't mean crap) to convenience you whether you are going to like a bike or not your probally missing out on allot of great bikes out there,
Hogslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014