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Old 04-04-2012, 07:46 PM   #1846
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by TEN YC View Post
grifter,

Can you clarify what you are referring to? When did this happen and what journo wrote about it?
I first heard about this from a review from Kevin Ash (UK). Ash is one of the top UK journalists with probably 20 years in the business. Read his review and comments on this here:

http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/tr...xplorer-review

Most journalist have their noses so far up BMW's butt they smell Wienershnitzel ... Triumph did a ballsy thing by letting this out in public at a press opening no less.

Ash calls BMW's behavior "naughty". Talk to any writer for any US moto magazine and see what they call it! You might get something a bit stronger.
Placing "Hot Rod" ringers with the press is very very naughty indeed.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:11 PM   #1847
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This whole BMW vs. Triumph thing with the variance in bike power strikes he as mud-slinging at this point. Now Ash is saying that Triumph doesn't want the graphs published. If you make an accusation, dammit, back it up. If not, shut up. Don't trot out "data" to make your point and then retreat and not let others examine it.

- Mark
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:13 AM   #1848
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
Send them to me and I'd be happy to post them. (PM me for an email.)

- Mark
here is a link to a SA site where I posted the image
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/inde...h=180256;image



WOW, that even worked....
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Old 04-05-2012, 03:41 AM   #1849
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I wonder how Triumph got acces to those BMW pressbikes and got them on a Dyno, did they steel one?
Anyway, If those comparrisons is to be worth shit the have to be taken on the same Dyno at the same day.
I did have sympathy for the Triumph brand, but this type of negative advertising puts me off. Now I just hope their bikes suffer major reliability problems making them eat their own shit.
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Old 04-05-2012, 04:56 AM   #1850
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Originally Posted by norseXL View Post
I wonder how Triumph got acces to those BMW pressbikes and got them on a Dyno, did they steel one?
Anyway, If those comparrisons is to be worth shit the have to be taken on the same Dyno at the same day.
I did have sympathy for the Triumph brand, but this type of negative advertising puts me off. Now I just hope their bikes suffer major reliability problems making them eat their own shit.
My understanding is a German bike mag dynoed a press bike they had from a BMW alongside a 'regular' bike.

This is not negative advertising at all, it's just pointing out how BMW are lying bastards and good for them for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Has BMW responded I wonder
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:19 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by mercury264 View Post
my understanding is a german bike mag dynoed a press bike they had from a bmw alongside a 'regular' bike.

This is not negative advertising at all, it's just pointing out how bmw are lying bastards and good for them for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Has bmw responded i wonder

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Old 04-05-2012, 05:44 AM   #1852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
My understanding is a German bike mag dynoed a press bike they had from a BMW alongside a 'regular' bike.

This is not negative advertising at all, it's just pointing out how BMW are lying bastards and good for them for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Has BMW responded I wonder
All I se is a graph that says Triumph at the bottom with curves from some third party run plotted inn.
Just to make a point, the curve beneeth show the results from when I last dynoed my own bike with less than 5 min betwen the runs. No it´s not a BMW, it´s just to prove a point.




Notice the difference, same day, same bike.
As for negative advertising, your wrong. This is exactly what NA is about.
Triumphs people showing a graph, then saying jouralists not pulicating it, c´mon they are not that stupid, neither is I.
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:51 AM   #1853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norseXL View Post
All I se is a graph that says Triumph at the bottom with curves from some third party run plotted inn.
Just to make a point, the curve beneeth show the results from when I last dynoed my own bike with less than 5 min betwen the runs. No it´s not a BMW, it´s just to prove a point.




Notice the difference, same day, same bike.
As for negative advertising, your wrong. This is exactly what NA is about.
Triumphs people showing a graph, then saying jouralists not pulicating it, c´mon they are not that stupid, neither is I.
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.


More like they know damn well they got caught

They weren't the ones who came up with the graph, nor were they the ones that first published it (AFAIK).
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:02 AM   #1854
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Originally Posted by norseXL View Post
And BMW not responding, I guess they wont lower them self to such a level.
No, instead of explaining the "discrepancy", they'd rather rant about how other manufacturers copy the idea (beak) that BMW copied from Suzuki.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:06 AM   #1855
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:07 AM   #1856
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I hope I haven't upset some of you ladies here.......

If one looks at the graphs, I honestly think it is no big deal and I'm quite sure you would get bigger differences in power and torque between other identical bikes.
At some rpm's the press bikes are even worse than market BMW, so possibly no evil intended by BMW.
I have however heard that the Triumph graphs are at the engin, whereas the BMW graphs are at the wheel - if true, I think THAT would be unfair by Triumph, without explicitly stating it
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:50 AM   #1857
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So now it's engine dyno and rear wheel dyno on the same graph? I have a hard time believing any of it. The problem is, ya don't get a take back on the iterwebs and the lies and slander are world wide already. BMW has built a pretty strong machine always. (i have a triumph) and the negative BS is just that. Win a test on your stregths not the weakness of the others.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:22 AM   #1858
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So now it's engine dyno and rear wheel dyno on the same graph? I have a hard time believing any of it. The problem is, ya don't get a take back on the iterwebs and the lies and slander are world wide already. BMW has built a pretty strong machine always. (i have a triumph) and the negative BS is just that. Win a test on your stregths not the weakness of the others.
look, I also don't think that the one graph is engine and the other at wheel - looking at both graphs, they peak near the specified maximum power for each bike, so it seems both are at the engine
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:35 AM   #1859
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The differences in those dyno graphs for the BMWs appear well within the bounds of normal sample-to-sample variance. If the dyno runs weren't on same dyno at the same time, then this adds further variance.

It has been SOP for decades for mfgs to supply the press with bikes that are carefully prepped and represent the best samples they can pull off the assembly line (or the prototype line for a new bike). I don't think there is anything wrong with this. You want to put your best foot forward, so you supply the best sample you have. And I fully expect Triumph has done this also.

I also fully expect that when Triumph decided to make their point, they cherry-picked their data to make it, finding a production bike that was on the low side of average and a press bike on the high side.

What is wrong is supplying bikes that have parts, tuning, ECUs, etc. that are not the same as the bikes they ship to customers. Has BMW been accused of this?

I like this Explorer and Triumphs in general, but I think Triumph started down the wrong road with this mud-slinging campaign. To throw this out at a press event pitching a new motorcycle strikes me as something done by a junior marketing person trying to make their splash in the company. I expect when upper mgmt found out about this, they wanted nothing to do with it. The fact Triumph is now wanting to back away from the story does not surprise me.

The Explorers are good enough they don't need to distract from the bike by getting involved in something petty like this.

- Mark
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:44 AM   #1860
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A general point about providing ringers to the press; in the last couple of year Aprilia and Suzuki were caught making mods to launch bikes. IIRC they were fairly minor, such as jacking up the suspension at the rear or having slightly different forks.

What BMW are accused of here is a greater step, doctoring long-termers rather than just one-off test bikes. The fact that the press bikes were tuned for better top-end doesn't surprise me, as most journos come from a sport-bike background and revving the nuts off bikes comes naturally to them.

My hunch would be that BMW were trying to slake that thirst, in a way, either to get more 1200GS models in the long-term tests, or mollify what they perceived as journos dissing the bike for non-sporty credentials. For all we know the journos may have practically begged for a tuned boxer.

Back to the Aprilia and Suzuki examples, both these instances of fudging were reported quite clearly in launch reports. So far it's pretty quiet on the BMW front. In Europe, where the 1200GS/ADV is by far the best selling bike over 500cc, I'd guess this is not to upset the sponsors.
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