ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-22-2013, 07:39 AM   #3331
Foot dragger
singletracker
 
Foot dragger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: chico,just below rag dump(nor-cal)
Oddometer: 10,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
Oh name calling, hat is against the rules. Go to jomama

Where does it say that he was not at fault. Also how stupid do you have to be to force your "right of way" anyway that sure showed that cager.

Typical bullshit from cyclists who wouldnt know safe riding if it was wearing lycra and waving yoohoo.
Just got out of high school? Anger management could be just the thing.
__________________
Some bikes around at times
Foot dragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 07:39 AM   #3332
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical C View Post
There is no way that you can headcheck andd see the same as mirrors. I know how far you can see as a headcheck, its only metres instead of hundreds of metres. You need mirrors.

I can see as far back as the road goes when I look back. And the details I get are better than details I get from a bicycle specific mirror.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 07:49 AM   #3333
Center-stand
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranrab Luap View Post
Was the bicyclist surprised that the trucker was there or surprised by how close the trucker passed? Let's try this a different way. In your learned opinion, what should the bicyclist have done to have made himself safer?
Trying it a different way is avoiding the point that brought me into the conversation.

Nobody has answered my question yet. At what point should he have moved to the center of the lane to slow the truck down?

When did you hear the truck on the video???

Did he have a mirror or camera screen to see the truck? He never gave any indication he was aware of it. Had he seen it he would have known it was in his lane and perhaps still been mad but not nearly so surprised.

How could he have made himself safer? We all know that recumbent's present a low profile. Maybe a flag, maybe a big orange triangle like farm equipment or Amish buggies use, brighter clothing and helmet. It would only take one experience like that one to make me search my need to ride that route. A point to remember is, he was doing nothing wrong and was still very nearly hit. Back to the original point. Moving in front of that truck would have been a very bad decision.

I would probably look for a different route that didn't include fast moving, heavy loaded trucks, speeding down a two lane. That might make one safer.

..
Center-stand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:01 AM   #3334
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
Trying it a different way is avoiding the point that brought me into the conversation.

Nobody has answered my question yet. At what point should he have moved to the center of the lane to slow the truck down?

When did you hear the truck on the video???

Did he have a mirror or camera screen to see the truck? He never gave any indication he was aware of it. Had he seen it he would have known it was in his lane and perhaps still been mad but not nearly so surprised.

How could he have made himself safer? We all know that recumbent's present a low profile. Maybe a flag, maybe a big orange triangle like farm equipment or Amish buggies use, brighter clothing and helmet. It would only take one experience like that one to make me search my need to ride that route. A point to remember is, he was doing nothing wrong and was still very nearly hit. Back to the original point. Moving in front of that truck would have been a very bad decision.

I would probably look for a different route that didn't include fast moving, heavy loaded trucks, speeding down a two lane. That might make one safer.

..
There is a lot to touch on in your post. At what point should he have moved to the center? I assume you ask this because of Gummee's post. All I can say is that both of those riders are very experienced, so I am assuming that the recumbent rider didn't because the whole of the circumstances at the moment told him it was not in his best interest. In Gummee's situation I am assuming he did what he did because the whole of the circumstances dictate that it was in his best interest to do so.

When I heard the truck in the video really isn't relevant. I wouldn't draw any conclusions off of it. The audio recording device in the camera probably isn't as good as the riders ears. At any rate there are too many potential technological explanations for differences between what the rider heard and what we heard.

A flag wouldn't have made any difference in this case. The truckers actions seem to indicate he saw the rider.

If I allow a rude, inconsiderate or unsafe driver dictate what route I take, I won't ever get on the road on any mode of conveyance.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:02 AM   #3335
ozmoses
Ride On
 
ozmoses's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Oddometer: 1,984
What I'd like to see happen is everybody behind the wheel get on a bike and pedal, if only for a few miles. I'm a cyclist who also drives cars,trucks and rides a mc- none are more important than the other,imo.


How do you like being passed with inches to spare? Suddenly you realize, hey, the shoulder isn't a bike lane because it's full of broken glass,stones,dead animals,etc.

How would you like motorists to treat you? What if the person on the bike were your child or your spouse?

Different,huh?

Do you think we cyclists enjoy riding on the main roads? I don't but sometimes it is necessary.

Truthfully- does the mere seconds it takes to brake,slow or otherwise adjust your driving actually impact your day very much?

Or is it more about your ego,as in,I'm bigger than you get out of my way?


Again, pedal for a few miles; your bike doesn't have to be fancy and you don't even need to wear spandex. Report
back.

You may even like it, assuming your presence doesn't offend a driver...
__________________
Opinions are like internet connections- everybody has one.

ozmoses screwed with this post 09-22-2013 at 08:08 AM
ozmoses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:23 AM   #3336
joexr
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Oddometer: 3,534
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranrab Luap View Post
Mirrors don't tell me what's over the next hill or around the next blind bend in the road. How about if I use ALL the tools at my disposal to make my ride as safe as possible. I use my hearing in a complementary not an exclusive manner.
Safe for YOU? How about everybody else?
joexr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:29 AM   #3337
Center-stand
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranrab Luap View Post
There is a lot to touch on in your post. At what point should he have moved to the center? I assume you ask this because of Gummee's post. All I can say is that both of those riders are very experienced, so I am assuming that the recumbent rider didn't because the whole of the circumstances at the moment told him it was not in his best interest. In Gummee's situation I am assuming he did what he did because the whole of the circumstances dictate that it was in his best interest to do so.

When I heard the truck in the video really isn't relevant. I wouldn't draw any conclusions off of it. The audio recording device in the camera probably isn't as good as the riders ears. At any rate there are too many potential technological explanations for differences between what the rider heard and what we heard.

A flag wouldn't have made any difference in this case. The truckers actions seem to indicate he saw the rider.

If I allow a rude, inconsiderate or unsafe driver dictate what route I take, I won't ever get on the road on any mode of conveyance.

You continue to make my point for me yet fail to recognize that you are doing so.

Moving in front of vehicles was presented as the safe way to keep a crazy cager from having a head on with someone coming around a curve or over a hill, That was expanded on by stating that cyclist can hear and determine speed of a following vehicle up to 1/2 mile away. I think the video is a great example of the fallacy of that thinking. My contention is it is fool hardy to assume that if you feel unseen, you will be seen, and avoided by pulling in front of a fast moving vehicle. But don't let my opinion stop you. By all means do as you please, but consider the inexperienced rider who might believe it's a good policy and make a bad decision.

The trucker saw the rider and still came too close. Obviously he can't be trusted. Again that is the point. Don't believe that making yourself more obvious by placing yourself in a more dangerous position will change the nature or habit of those who have no respect for cyclist.

Audio recordings on cameras are usually made from the same direction as the camera is pointed. In this case it's easy to hear wind noise, and the clicking and clacking of the bike. The wind noise is somewhat attenuated, I think because the camera is pointed opposite the direction of travel. That should allow for a more pronounced sound of the approaching truck, But, just for the sake of argument about how far one can hear and respond to a following vehicle, what if the same driver was in a quiet Mercedes??

You wouldn't draw any conclusion from a video, but you would expect to influence others with anecdotal hypothetical scenarios.

..
Center-stand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:31 AM   #3338
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Safe for YOU? How about everybody else?
First, I pose very little risk to others safety when I ride. Beyond that, I tend to be very accommodating of other road users, often inconveniencing myself for their benefit. My number one goal when I set out for a ride is to arrive back with my body and my bike in the same physical condition as it was when I left. My number two goal is to mesh as harmoniously with other road users as I safely can. That said, there will most assuredly be other road users who don't understand why I do what I do and will misinterpret what I do as being discourteous. Around here, door zones are a major issue. I'll be riding out of the swing radius of parked car doors and have someone behind me lay on the horn or tell me to get out of the way. Of course they have no idea of why I am riding so far away from the parked cars, they just see an inconsiderate, self important, spandex clad fag holding them up. If I ride in an area where there are lots of parked cars, I make sure I let traffic behind me get by if they are back there for very long at all.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:45 AM   #3339
joexr
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Oddometer: 3,534
Thumb

[QUOTE=Dranrab Luap;22387694]an inconsiderate, self important, spandex clad fag QUOTE]
Your words , my thoughts exactly.At least someone here is honest.
joexr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #3340
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
You continue to make my point for me yet fail to recognize that you are doing so.

Moving in front of vehicles was presented as the safe way to keep a crazy cager from having a head on with someone coming around a curve or over a hill, That was expanded on by stating that cyclist can hear and determine speed of a following vehicle up to 1/2 mile away. I think the video is a great example of the fallacy of that thinking. My contention is it is fool hardy to assume that if you feel unseen, you will be seen, and avoided by pulling in front of a fast moving vehicle. But don't let my opinion stop you. By all means do as you please, but consider the inexperienced rider who might believe it's a good policy and make a bad decision.

The trucker saw the rider and still came too close. Obviously he can't be trusted. Again that is the point. Don't believe that making yourself more obvious by placing yourself in a more dangerous position will change the nature or habit of those who have no respect for cyclist.

Audio recordings on cameras are usually made from the same direction as the camera is pointed. In this case it's easy to hear wind noise, and the clicking and clacking of the bike. The wind noise is somewhat attenuated, I think because the camera is pointed opposite the direction of travel. That should allow for a more pronounced sound of the approaching truck, But, just for the sake of argument about how far one can hear and respond to a following vehicle, what if the same driver was in a quiet Mercedes??

You wouldn't draw any conclusion from a video, but you would expect to influence others with anecdotal hypothetical scenarios.

..

Did Gummee say that he would have moved in front of the truck in the video? I don't remember him saying he would. Would he say one way or another, not knowing what lies ahead? I'd guess that he would want to know what lies ahead before he would say one way or another and the camera doesn't give us that info.

On a long straight road, I will move laterally bit within my own lane before assuming a FRAP position, figuring that a little movement across the lane will make me more conspicuous and less likely to blend in with the background. It's similar to the in lane weave I do on my motorcycle when I see approaching left turners or when I see cross traffic ahead. My hope is to increase conspicuity.

Rather than assert that others are wrong, I am going to assume that the riders who post here make the best decision they can based on the whole of the circumstances and their personal experiences in the area they ride.

We'll see if K7 can get in touch with is bud about the truck. I am going to guess that he heard the trucker and saw him in a rearview well before the dangerously close pass.

I have no way of knowing, but the trucker very well may have moved all the way over into the oncoming lane had the 'bent rider centered up in his lane. As bicyclists and road users in general, we often make assumptions about what other road users will do. Sometimes we get it right and sometimes we get it wrong.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 08:54 AM   #3341
joexr
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Oddometer: 3,534
Question

So what do you people expect traffic to do to accommodate you on a two lane , two way road , with packs of your little bicycles going in both directions at the same time?
joexr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 09:06 AM   #3342
ozmoses
Ride On
 
ozmoses's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Oddometer: 1,984
Take a mere few seconds out of your life to keep us healthy; what would you like?




And why "little bicycles"?

When I'm in the cab, your "little motorcycle" looks pretty silly...doesn't mean you are in the way, you are traffic.
__________________
Opinions are like internet connections- everybody has one.

ozmoses screwed with this post 09-22-2013 at 09:47 AM
ozmoses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #3343
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
For those who want to engage in thoughtful conversation, you are most certainly welcome. If your sole or primary purpose is dickery, douchebaggery or disruptiveness, your stay on ADV s going to be short lived. We all learn from people posing questions and challenging answers. It serves no good whatsoever to come here with no objective other than to be an obstinate ass. That's what Jo Momma is for.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 09:40 AM   #3344
Center-stand
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Oddometer: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranrab Luap View Post
Did Gummee say that he would have moved in front of the truck in the video? I don't remember him saying he would. Would he say one way or another, not knowing what lies ahead? I'd guess that he would want to know what lies ahead before he would say one way or another and the camera doesn't give us that info.
So as not to misquote, here is what Gummee said, copied and pasted.


"Take the guy coming up on me yesterday for example. I could hear him not slowing down and I could hear cars coming over the crest of the hill we were all approaching.

So I started moving towards the center of the lane

Truck rolls up behind me and was thinking hard about passing over the DY (I could hear it) and over the crest of the hill when 'hey! lookit that! Cars are coming!'

If I HADN'T moved towards the center of the lane, sure as shootin, the guy in the truck would've gone around me into oncoming traffic.

He made sure he floored it as he passed. All you can do is shake your head at the sheer stupidity. I just saved all of our bacons and you're not even thankful? Shame on you."
............................


When I asked.


"So he is close enough that you hear him. He's not slowing down. And then you move into the center of the lane. ...........................

And you think that's a smart move???"
...............................


bwalsh replied.


"Yes.

Next question..."
...............................


Then Gummee replied.


"You can hear car tires for a ways back if you're listening. (and I do every time I get to the crest of a hill or a blind turn)

...and you'd rather I stayed as far to the right as possible and let the guy go around me into traffic? THAT'S a better alternative than taking the lane?"
..............................


To which I replied.


"I really couldn't care less what you do or how you ride, but personally, I would be hesitant to pull into the path of a truck that was coming up behind me fast and not slowing.

I don't know about others but, If I see a cyclist, I reduce speed upon sight. If I'm not slowing, I didn't see you. Don't wait too late to pull in front of me where I can't slow to the speed you are riding. If you can hear tire noise over wind noise in your ears I am assuming you are going pretty slow. The closing rate of a vehicle going 60 mph over one going 10 or 12 mph is quick.

For me, self preservation would suggest I make myself as visible as possible with position and clothing while at the same time giving way to bigger, heavier, fast moving vehicles.

As far as a better alternative, would you rather be run over, or watch a head on collision between other vehicles? I see risk either way. Suit yourself."
..............................


Then bwalsh said.


"Jeez people...You can hear a vehicle coming from 1/4 to a 1/2 mile off. Its not like he is waiting until the vehicle is 10' away then whipping out in front of it...like some here must think."
.................................................

To which I replied.

"Jeez man, do you think you should be concerned about vehicles not slowing down if they are still 1/4 to 1/2 mile off??? Give me a break.

If Gummee was talking about a driver that far behind not slowing down, his point is even more disturbing.

Some here, think many here, are incapable of thinking.
............................................

I think you came in and addressed me at about this point so you know the rest.

The points I have tried to make are these.

You probably can't hear a vehicle 1/2 mile behind you. Those who claim they can don't know how far behind 1/2 mile is.

You shouldn't try to slow a speeding vehicle by moving in front of it when you hear it, no matter how good your hearing is.

If you do not have vehicles immediately behind you, that is when you should be toward the center of the lane to make yourself visible. When the vehicles approach, respond accordingly to the danger they present. Get out of the way of speeding vehicles.

And just for the record, I am 100% sure that Gummee could not hear the truck thinking hard about passing on a DY. With that kind of BS it's hard to place stock in any part of the story.

YMMV on the short end if you try to slow speeding vehicles with a bicycle.

..
Center-stand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 10:19 AM   #3345
Dranrab Luap
E-Tarded
 
Dranrab Luap's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Oddometer: 29,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post

The points I have tried to make are these.

You probably can't hear a vehicle 1/2 mile behind you. Those who claim they can don't know how far behind 1/2 mile is.

You shouldn't try to slow a speeding vehicle by moving in front of it when you hear it, no matter how good your hearing is.

If you do not have vehicles immediately behind you, that is when you should be toward the center of the lane to make yourself visible. When the vehicles approach, respond accordingly to the danger they present. Get out of the way of speeding vehicles.

And just for the record, I am 100% sure that Gummee could not hear the truck thinking hard about passing on a DY. With that kind of BS it's hard to place stock in any part of the story.

YMMV on the short end if you try to slow speeding vehicles with a bicycle.

..
I can assure you that under many conditions I can hear a vehicle a half mile behind me. It's not the norm, but at times I can and I am pretty good about estimating distance.

I have in fact moved out into a lane as I approach a hill or blind curve to try to prevent an unsafe pass. That does not mean I will remain there obsitinately. Any time I encounter a situation that raises my hackles I prepare an escape route. We have no idea what would have happened in the truck video if the rider had moved to center lane. It looks like that driver was hellbent on being a dick, so I assume he would have made a dick move without purposefully running over the cyclist. When Gummee told his story, I did not cling to his words absolutely literally. Nor did I assume he told the story with every detail everyone would need to understand why he did what he did. I have ridden in the kind of areas he rides. As he told his story, I envisioned myself in similar situations. What he did made sense the way I visualized it. I think because many here don't ride, they can't relate. Admittedly, my tendency to to try to make things make sense may cause me to not to challenge something the way you have. Riding a bicycle is a very sensing experience. Gummee said he heard the driver second guessing himself. I got that. You hear a little on/off throttle action. You simply sense things when you bring hearing into the picture that you don't get in other modes of transport.

There is no one size fits all way for cyclists to stay safe while accommodating other road users. There are different methods of dealing with the same situation that can yield favorable results.

I know this. Motorists who think they can squeeze past you will make that squeeze at times when it's unsafe to the bicyclist, to themselves and to other motorists. Moving to the center of the lane forces most of them to rethink and wait. Some still insist on passing, in which case you have much more room to escape to the right.

If someone doesn't see you, you are screwed no matter where you are in a narrow lane.
Dranrab Luap is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014