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Old 02-24-2012, 07:42 PM   #106
windmill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyr View Post
As for the paint... Leave it as it is!
+1

It can only be original once!
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:04 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
If it was a MMZ bike it wou'ld have neither the rear gussets nor the overarm on the sidecar. MMZ stopped production in 1941! IMZ continued the overarm sidecar up until 1955/6. If it was from the Great Patriotic War then the engine, gearcases and FD would be in cast iron, Care to add some more guesses?
Just a wild uneducated guess, a early civilian M72 ?
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Old 02-25-2012, 01:10 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
+1

It can only be original once!
That's what SHE said...........
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:08 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
If it was a MMZ bike it wou'ld have neither the rear gussets nor the overarm on the sidecar. MMZ stopped production in 1941! IMZ continued the overarm sidecar up until 1955/6. If it was from the Great Patriotic War then the engine, gearcases and FD would be in cast iron, Care to add some more guesses?
Without a data tag, guesses are all that it will ever be.
Almost no rig of this age EVER has the original major drive-line components. I've also read that the first M-72 engine/gearboxes were cast iron, but I've never seen one that made it long enough to be in a modern photo in my eight year interest in old Russian iron, so yo can't really date anything by that.
And as I remember, until around1946-48, all M-72 sidecars were built at ΓMZ (and actually all H-D WLA's that were lent/leased to the Soviets got a ΓMZ sidecar, too!!!) until the sidecar assembly line was passed to IMZ. Yet, ΓMZ apparently continued to make and design bikes. Some of the CJ guys swear that it was the Gorky tooling that went to the Chinese in 1956-57 once the Rooskies were done with it. Never seen a ΓMZ data tag though.
I've heard that the gussets were added during the war years, because it didn't take long for the the Rooskies to discover that their welding and metallurgy weren't compatible with Rooskie terrain.
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #110
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Here is one which will sadly never be used again.
It was brought back by the 82nd Airborne after WW-2 and put in their museum at Ft. Bragg.

The wiring was a mess, and I offered to get it running for them if they would only let me test ride it every once in a while...



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Old 02-28-2012, 12:02 PM   #111
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And a couple of period photos of the bikes in action:

This photo is posted above the bike on display in the 82nd Airborne museum:


Taking a few friends along...


Down South...



I personally like the humanity that this photo displays in the midst of an inhumane time.....




And here is a gallery where I have a few more photos, and where I add more as I find them:

http://bmwzenrider.smugmug.com/Motor...Wartime-Bikes/

Nice thread.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #112
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And a bit more about the Harley XA clone of the BMW flathead that never saw serial production.
They have one in their museum here in Milwaukee, and evidently at least a few survived the war and made it into the hands of private owners somehow.





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Old 02-28-2012, 09:25 PM   #113
oppozit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gspell68 View Post
Without a data tag, guesses are all that it will ever be.
Almost no rig of this age EVER has the original major drive-line components. I've also read that the first M-72 engine/gearboxes were cast iron, but I've never seen one that made it long enough to be in a modern photo in my eight year interest in old Russian iron, so yo can't really date anything by that.
And as I remember, until around1946-48, all M-72 sidecars were built at ΓMZ (and actually all H-D WLA's that were lent/leased to the Soviets got a ΓMZ sidecar, too!!!) until the sidecar assembly line was passed to IMZ. Yet, ΓMZ apparently continued to make and design bikes. Some of the CJ guys swear that it was the Gorky tooling that went to the Chinese in 1956-57 once the Rooskies were done with it. Never seen a ΓMZ data tag though.
I've heard that the gussets were added during the war years, because it didn't take long for the the Rooskies to discover that their welding and metallurgy weren't compatible with Rooskie terrain.
The first M-72 bikes made by MMZ had aluminium engine/gearcases and final drive housings. The first M-72 assembled by IMZ from MMZ parts had aluminium engine/gearcases and final drive housings. Bikes manufactured by IMZ and GMZ during the war had cast iron engine/gearcases and final drive housings.

Despite your assertion that "Almost no rig of this age EVER has the original major drive-line components." I've seen units come out of Finland every few years with cast iron engine/gearcases and final drive housings. But at 10,000 Euro for a bike less complete than the one in this thread, I've passed.

GMZ/GAZ built all sidecars until 1946 when IMZ started building their own chairs. GMZ continued to make bikes and chairs until 1949 when ALL production facilities were transferred to KMZ. Some of the CJ guys spin stories as believable as Arbalet's infamous 1939 KMZ (complete with it's authentic letters)! IMZ transferred it's M-72 production line to China in 1957. The production line was un-needed as they now had the M-72M production line.

You can mock Soviet welding and metallurgy but through the course of the war they turned the M-72 into an effective unit. The bike as deigned by BMW was half-arsed, but so was their attempts to build a bike for the Wehrmacht. Without copying heaps of Zundapp's superior design, the R-75 wouldn't have existed.

With some appropriate detective work, a knowledge of when changes occured and the date marks that are found on many ancillary parts you can generally date a bike fairly well, certainly a lot better than forged data plates and forged Technical Passports. I mean, arent you the owner of a 1951 K-750? A bike built before the first M-72 ever left the KMZ factory!
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:54 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWzenrider View Post
Here is one which will sadly never be used again.
It was brought back by the 82nd Airborne after WW-2 and put in their museum at Ft. Bragg.

The wiring was a mess, and I offered to get it running for them if they would only let me test ride it every once in a while...



Fantastic shots...And thanks for the link to your pics!! I checked them out... Wonderful images!

As for the Ft Bragg R75-I wonder if they just brought it over and dropped it off on the base without anyone really using it..
Also cool if you can get them to let you "have at it"

Great info on the Harley.. I never really paid attention to it before but it looks like a sweet package. There is a piece on it in Cycle World this month (i think its that mag) as I was flipping through. Should have picked it up..
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:11 PM   #115
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War hack

A nice website in French....presenting some contreversies such as "no Soviet units on M72 before 1945"????. nut nice pics of FN rig, Gnome & Rhone, Soviet Vtwin or slopper!

http://dnepr.ural.free.fr/controverse.htm
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:14 PM   #116
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Don't forget to read the response in English

http://dnepr.ural.free.fr/cadres.htm
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:25 AM   #117
gspell68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppozit View Post
The first M-72 bikes made by MMZ had aluminium engine/gearcases and final drive housings. The first M-72 assembled by IMZ from MMZ parts had aluminium engine/gearcases and final drive housings. Bikes manufactured by IMZ and GMZ during the war had cast iron engine/gearcases and final drive housings.

Despite your assertion that "Almost no rig of this age EVER has the original major drive-line components." I've seen units come out of Finland every few years with cast iron engine/gearcases and final drive housings. But at 10,000 Euro for a bike less complete than the one in this thread, I've passed.

GMZ/GAZ built all sidecars until 1946 when IMZ started building their own chairs. GMZ continued to make bikes and chairs until 1949 when ALL production facilities were transferred to KMZ. Some of the CJ guys spin stories as believable as Arbalet's infamous 1939 KMZ (complete with it's authentic letters)! IMZ transferred it's M-72 production line to China in 1957. The production line was un-needed as they now had the M-72M production line.

You can mock Soviet welding and metallurgy but through the course of the war they turned the M-72 into an effective unit. The bike as deigned by BMW was half-arsed, but so was their attempts to build a bike for the Wehrmacht. Without copying heaps of Zundapp's superior design, the R-75 wouldn't have existed.

With some appropriate detective work, a knowledge of when changes occured and the date marks that are found on many ancillary parts you can generally date a bike fairly well, certainly a lot better than forged data plates and forged Technical Passports. I mean, arent you the owner of a 1951 K-750? A bike built before the first M-72 ever left the KMZ factory!
I don't mock their metallugury and welding. Welding of that era just wasn't that great. Look at the KS-750 and the R-75 frames; two different approches to avoiding welds that wouldn't stand up to off-road stresses. It's just a fact.

And, yep, I have a 1951 K-750 (that's what the paperwork says anyhow!) that looks suspiciously like the later 1957-59 K-750's. However, the K-750 is an IMZ (not KMZ) design dates back to 1949. It's odd that they'd wait 10 years to produce a running bike. Just like they say that M-72 tooling was transferred to KMZ in 1948, but it wasn't until 1952 that they made the first M-72's, with 500 borrowed engines nonetheless???
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:08 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by gspell68 View Post
I don't mock their metallugury and welding. Welding of that era just wasn't that great. Look at the KS-750 and the R-75 frames; two different approches to avoiding welds that wouldn't stand up to off-road stresses. It's just a fact.

An in
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:33 AM   #119
Pugsley/Hobbfather
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Rifle Scabbards

Hey all, I know that the Thompsons were carried up front, but are there any pics of the side-carry rifle scabbards? I thought they were German, so maybe one or two out there?

It's been a long while, so fuzzy is the memory...
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:59 AM   #120
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Is it a hack?

Last weekend I took part in military vehicle show in Overloon Holland.

Yours truly setting off to the fuel point.
Photobucket

Some hacks at the show.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

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