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Old 07-18-2013, 05:17 AM   #256
wvrocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
WV,
Plates look good, not sure about the general movement.

In the basket are the side cuts where the plates slide notched?

The spec for plates is:
Plates must be flat
7 steel discs 1.5mm(0.066 in) free of groves
8 lining discs 2.7mm(0.16 in) wear limit 2.5mm(0.1in)

If you call me and explan how to send a pdf file I will send a copy of the factory manual to you.

I have it in My Documents but don't know how to copy it to you or anyone.

715 966 2001
bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjnx View Post
A little play in the clutch is natural. You should dig around in the Thumper thread for more specifics. What condition is the basket in. Any cracking?

As for wear, you need to look at them individually for scoring. At 9k they should be fine. A bad bearing can cause some unusual wear.

You probably know this, but make sure you orient them in the same direction on the install. I've heard of others who didn't, is why I mention it.

When you drive the new bearing, make sure it doesn't go in to far, and bind the main shaft. I was following a thread where someone got to that point, and then ended up splitting the cases.

Have fun..

Thanks Bill, I got a copy of the manual. Appreciate the offer.

Highjinx, thanks for the reminder on the driving depth. That is certainly something you don't want to get wrong. I've kept my clutch plates organized and oriented just as they came out.

The 2 plates I measured before I left for work this morning were in spec and didn't show any grooving.

There are some marks on the basket and hub from the tangs on the clutch discs. They look worse in the photos than they feel. No obvious cracks in the basket.



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Old 07-18-2013, 10:18 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by wvrocks View Post
Thanks Bill, I got a copy of the manual. Appreciate the offer.

Highjinx, thanks for the reminder on the driving depth. That is certainly something you don't want to get wrong. I've kept my clutch plates organized and oriented just as they came out.

The 2 plates I measured before I left for work this morning were in spec and didn't show any grooving.

There are some marks on the basket and hub from the tangs on the clutch discs. They look worse in the photos than they feel. No obvious cracks in the basket.



I have filed groves out of mine a couple of times either with a flat file or a dremel or both.
b
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:22 AM   #258
wvrocks
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Originally Posted by bmwktmbill View Post
I have filed groves out of mine a couple of times either with a flat file or a dremel or both.
b

Thanks, I knocked some burrs off with a file last night. Should be good.

Does anyone out there have a bearing kit I could borrow before I make my own? I'll pay shipping of course.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:12 AM   #259
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OK, I'm confused.

It looks to me like 'wvrocks' doesn't have a bearing issue but that 'wrya1' sure does.

I have a bearing puller and can ship it anywhere. Let me know where and I'll get it shipped out this week. I'm going away starting next week for 2 weeks so if you need a puller I'll ship on or before this Friday July 26.

FYI, when my bearing went it ate those two plastic oil pump gears and sent metal and plastic everywhere.

If I could figure out how to attach pictures I would but alas, I can't.

Send me a note.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:14 AM   #260
wvrocks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chester13 View Post
OK, I'm confused.

It looks to me like 'wvrocks' doesn't have a bearing issue but that 'wrya1' sure does.

I have a bearing puller and can ship it anywhere. Let me know where and I'll get it shipped out this week. I'm going away starting next week for 2 weeks so if you need a puller I'll ship on or before this Friday July 26.

FYI, when my bearing went it ate those two plastic oil pump gears and sent metal and plastic everywhere.

If I could figure out how to attach pictures I would but alas, I can't.

Send me a note.
Sorry about the confusion, the clutch questions came when I was making my way in to look at the main bearing.

My existing bearing was in good shape, well it was before I started drilling out the cage last night. I'm going to change it anyway for the new style and consider it preventative maintenance. I'm planning on having this bike for a while.

No need for a puller now, I made my own last night. When I'm done with it, I'd be happy to mail it to anyone who needs to borrow it.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:00 AM   #261
Chester13
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Looks like bearing pullers are starting to become a stock item in most of our tool boxes.

I'm just dying to us mine again but fear I'll never get the chance. It was such an accomplishment at the time.

Cheers,

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Old 07-24-2013, 05:34 AM   #262
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Got my puller built. I have to say, cutting into that bearing cage and knowing that if you screw up, you might have to split the cases is pretty nerve-racking. Especially when you have a trip planned in 2 weeks.

Here we go!



When you start feeling the other bolts go slack as you tighten one, thats a good feeling.

And its out!



Thanks to everyone who worked on this thread. The whole process went very smoothly. I didn't heat the engine or cool the original bearing, just hooked up the puller and started cranking. It came out with minimal fuss. The new bearing when in very nicely after spending a night in the freezer.

Honestly, I'd rather do this thank check the valves. At least I could get my damn hand in this space!
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:58 PM   #263
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Wow

Dude what a great report! Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
Building a Puller

If you read all the published experiences of people who have done this repair, one thing stands out: Getting the old bearing out was pretty easy for some and a total PITA for others. I suspect that the manufacturing tolerances affecting the OD of the bearing and ID of the hole in the cases are the main reason why some bearings hold on for dear life and others pop right out.

My take is that mine was a little harder than most to remove. Another advrider.com reader kindly gave me his puller hooks ground from 1/4" Grade 8 bolts and since they worked on his bike, I was confident they would work on mine. They failed miserably.

After a lot of trial and error, what finally worked for me was to build a puller using 2" PVC pipe fittings, three 4" length 5/16" Grade 8 bolts with fine thread nuts, and a 3"x3" piece of 1/8" steel. The PVC fitting goes over the main shaft where it acts as a standoff for the steel plate through which the puller hooks go to be tightened by the nuts. You will probably need some washers as well unless your bolts have a large distance threaded to take up slack as the bearing comes out.



Some have had luck with only two puller hooks, but many have reported that they couldn't get it out with two but could with three. I strongly recommend just using three from the get-go. More on making the pullers below.

Another approach is to grind pullers from bolts and attach them to some sort of slide hammer. This didn't work for me, but my slide hammer was just threaded rod on which I was sliding huge sockets and probably had too much stretch and give. Another idea that worked for someone was to weld threaded rod to the outer race and then beat on that with a slide hammer. Personally, I liked the slow/controlled aspect of using threaded puller bolts in a standoff, but the slide hammer approach has been successful for some.

My standoff used a splice fitting for joining 2" PVC pipe and had an ID of about 2-1/4" (the bearing has an OD of 2") and a length of slightly less than 3". As is, the fitting was slightly too short to use with my 4" bolts as the steel plate would start pushing on the end of the main shaft during the pull, so I found a black plastic waste pipe cap fitting that just fit into the end of the PVC fitting. This worked nicely as it reinforced the top edge where the steel plate was pushing and added another 1/4" to the height of the fitting. After pounding it in, I drilled out the cap with a hole saw. I also slightly relieved the bottom edge of the fitting that goes against the motor to clear a boss near the top oil pump so that it would sit on the motor case evenly. You could use a lot of different things for a standoff, but you do want it to fit flush against the motor, be big enough to clear the bearing OD, and tall enough so that you're pushing against the standoff, not the end of the main shaft.



Many think that it is Okay to push against the main shaft as you pull the bearing and that's the way commercial pullers typically work, but I personally feel this should be avoided. I don't know what resists axial loads on the main shaft inside the tranny and others have been problems where the main shaft "binds up" either during the pull or while the new bearing is being pushed in. If your standoff is long enough to clear the main shaft, then it is a non-issue, at least during the pull, as the mainshaft never sees any stress whatsoever.

You can use anything for the end plate as long as it holds up to the pulling. I initially tried using a strip of 1/8" x 1-1/2" steel that was a little narrower than the standoff so that it wasn't bearing on the standoff all the way around it, and it deformed and bent permanently during the pull. When I used a 3" wide strip that completely covered the standoff, this problem disappeared.

You might note that the three puller holes in the plate are not drilled equally around the circumference. This is because the pullers are not going to be spaced equally around the bearing race as there are seven ball bearings and seven doesn't divide equally by three. To be precise, each ball is spaced at about 51.5 degree intervals, so with three hooks spaced as equally as possible, the spacing between hooks works out to be 103-103-154 degrees. If you just use 120 degrees, you'll probably be fine, but after many failed attempts, I got out a protractor and made sure I drilled the holes such that each puller was pulling as straight as possible. The puller holes should be on a circle of about 1-1/2" diameter which is midway between the inner and outer races.



Removing the Outer Bearing Cage (if required)

Some have managed to pull their bearing by leaving the bearing cage intact and wedging small puller hooks into the tiny gap between the outside bearing cage and outer bearing race. I had zero luck doing this. The amount of "meat" left on the hook after I made it small enough to fit into this narrow gap simply wasn't enough to resist pulling out when I started the pull. I tried hook after hook and they all failed. But go ahead and give it a go if you want. As I said, mine acted tighter than most.

Removing the outer bearing cage is straightforward, but it is worrisome as you're probably going to be grinding and drilling into the side of your motor. And certainly once you start whittling away at the cage, you're past the point of no return - the bearing has to come out, one way or the other.

I used a dremel tool to first cut the cage at a high point over one of the balls. This created a "break" in the cage so I could pry the cage up and get some pliers on it to help pull it out. Then is used a fairly large drill bit (just slightly smaller than the gap between the bearing races) to drill out each of the seven rivets in succession holding the two cage halves together between the balls. You just need to drill out some of the rivet head and then pull hard on the cage and the rivet gives up. You work your way around until the entire cage pulls out. There is no need whatsoever to drill through the rivet to the other side. The cage on the other side stays intact, so you don't need to worry about dropping it or a rivet into the tranny.



It is a good idea to try and minimize the debris getting scattered around in this cage removal operation. I used tape, rags, and grease to keep the debris generally on the outside of the motor and went over everything at the end with compressed air. Even so, when I did an oil change at 20 miles after the repair there was some fine grit and metal shavings in the sump screen and magnetic sump plug so I doubt one can totally avoid getting some debris into the engine. Fortunately the LC4's double filters, screen, and magnetic sump plug should form an effective 2nd line of defense. With a few hundred miles on my engine after the repair, I'm not having any problems.

Another person reported that they managed to pry up the cage in the spots where they wanted to place pullers. This might be a good way to avoid grinding/drilling.

Grinding the Pullers

The most critical part of a successful bearing pull is getting puller hooks that just barely fit into the space between the bearing races while leaving enough hook to catch the outer/curved race and not deform so much that they pull out when you start cranking on them. I made a lot of hooks before finding ones that worked for me. I wouldn't have high expectations that your very first one will work as you get better with experience.



Here's the process (assuming you've removed the outer bearing cage and are using 5/16" bolts - if not, then you are going to be working with much smaller hooks although the principles are similar):
  1. Grind opposite flat sides of the bolt head hex down to the shaft OD. This establishes the width of the puller hook that will just fit between two adjacent balls in the bearing after shoving them apart a bit. Try and keep the ground sides flat and parallel. When you're done you'll have a mostly rectangular head with shallow points at each end.
  2. Grind one of the shallow hex points down to the shaft OD, perpendicular to the two sides you ground in step 1.
  3. Grind the remaining hex point just slightly to turn the point into an arc that will match the arc of the outer race. Avoid making it shorter.
  4. Grind the top of the hex to shorten the bolt head from 3/16" tall to 1/8" tall. Err on the side of too little - you can take off more later.

During grinding, wear gloves, use a flat piece of scrap wood as a push block, and douse the bolt in water often to keep it from overheating. (And wear safety glasses of course.) There is a lot of grinding involved, so it will take a while, especially if you don't have a very big grinder.

At this point, you've got your basic hook. The only problem is that it is too wide to go into the gap between the inner and outer races. But try anyway to get the idea of what you need to do next. Hold the bolt at an acute angle with respect to the engine cases (more parallel to the case face rather than the main shaft) and attempt to get the hook into the outer race. It won't go, but your job now is to grind, try, grind, try, etc. until you just get it to barely fit.

The grinding you need to do is to narrow the bolt shank (not the hook) enough so that it will just barely fit between the races. I ground approximately equally on both sides until the shank was about 3/16" wide, but you need to do it incrementally. When they go in, they'll suddenly go in, so you need to work slowly. Some folks report that they wedge them in and use tie-wraps to pull them parallel to the main shaft, but once mine went in, they didn't require any force to pull them parallel to the main shaft. If you have to use a lot of wedging force, you may pinch the innner race down on the main shaft which isn't good.



The Pull

Once you've got your tool together, the pull should be anti-climatic. Make sure things are aligned, go slowly, and torque each nut a little at a time. Putting a drop of oil on each nut thread should reduce the torque on the pullers, but if you've ground your pullers precisely, they should not be able to turn since a flat side is bearing directly on the inner race.



A big question many have is whether to use heat or not during the pull. I rigged a heat gun to blow hot air on the case for 30 minutes or so during one of my failed pulls and it didn't seem to help. Others have heated the case with a propane torch. Whatever you do, it is very difficult to get enough BTUs to significantly heat the case and whatever heat you apply is going to heat the bearing too.



I also used Radio Shack freeze-spray on the bearing during both my successful and unsuccessful pulls. I doubt it made much difference, but you never know. It can't hurt.

Putting the New Bearing In

The new roller bearing has an inner race "top hat" and a washer that go over the main shaft. You have a choice here: a) Slide the washer on first, then push the bearing in, then place the inner race; or b) inner race, then bearing, then washer. Both methods have been used and work fine and I couldn't find anything in the 2003 KTM parts diagrams that showed the new roller bearing as anything other than a single piece so they were no help on what order to assemble the bearing. It probably doesn't matter.

However, if you do it via method (b) you won't be able to remove the inner race without getting the bearing out. And without the inner race removed, your chances of being able to pull the bearing again (heaven forbid) from the outside are probably nil. So for reasons of future repair accessibility, I think (a) is the preferred method.

To drive the bearing, ideally you'd want a big bearing driver that goes over the main shaft, but all of us have simply hammerd the bearing in with a dowel of wood, going very slowly and working carefully around the circumference, making sure it goes in straight. You can use the old bearing as a driver also although I didn't. Freezing the bearing ahead of time is probably a good idea, although I forgot to and managed to get it in Okay. Make sure you hammer only against the outer race, not against any of the rollers and make super sure you get the washer in there before you start. Once the bearing starts into that hole, it ain't coming back out without a lot of trouble.



Very important: I had initially assumed that the bearing seated onto a lip in the case halve which established how deep it could go. It does not - the hole in the case is just a plain hole with no lip. Thus, you can overdrive the bearing such that it pushes against the gears on the main shaft and binds the shaft. Someone in this forum did this and had a hell of a hassle getting the bearing to back up enough to free the main shaft. Don't overdrive the bearing!

KTM wants the new bearing, like the old, to be just flush with the machined case surface that surrounds the bearing. Their instructions for pressing in the bearing with the cases split say to first mount the bearing retainer on the outside and then push the bearing in from the inside until it contacts the retainer. So you want it to be flush with the case BUT THAT'S ALL. Go very slowly and repeatedly check to be sure the main shaft is free. Many have reported that it binds up a bit at times, but hammering on the end frees it up. Mine remained free the whole time. Once you've got it reasonably flush and the main shaft is free, put the retainer on, pop the inner race in, and call it a day.

Re-Assembly

As the tired saying goes, "Re-assembly is the reverse of assembly." Here are some things to watch out for:
  • In the shop manual, KTM specifies 243 Loctite (blue) for the small two bolts holding on the bearing retainer and the big nut holding the clutch hub on. But in the parts diagram, they specify 648 high-temp Loctite. I used Permatex high-temp stuff I found at the local auto parts store for both. The critical clutch hub nut is locked with the lock tab washer too, so KTM must believe in both a belt and suspenders for this fastener.
  • Another manual discrepancy (all too typical for KTM): KTM specifies a torque of 100 Nm (60 ft-lb) for the clutch hub nut. The only problem is that 100 Nm is 74 ft-lb, not 60 ft-lb. (Maybe the guy who wrote this also wrote the software that caused one of our Mars probes to miss the red planet due to a bad unit conversion.) I compromised and used 90 Nm (66 ft-lb). As mentioned earlier, if you don't have a tool to hold the clutch inner hub, you'll need to lock the rear wheel somehow (brake, wedge in spokes, whatever) and put the tranny in gear to torque this nut.
  • When you put in your clutch discs, make sure the first disc you put back in is the same as the first one you took out - DON'T MIX THIS DISC with the others. It has a slightly larger ID to clear the o-ring that sits in the clutch hub. In addition, you should be careful not to flip the steel discs as the service manual says "Mount all steel discs with the sharp edge facing downward." (I assume "downward" means "towards the engine". I just put things back together exactly in the order I took them out and didn't look at the steel discs so I'm not entirely certain what they're talking about.)
  • According to KTM, the two oil pump gears were different sizes up to 2001 models, but the same beginning in 2002. On my 2000 they were definitely different sizes. In any event, I'd suggest you put them back as you took them out.
  • As to the rotational timing of the parts you put back in, I don't think it matters for the oil pump gears, kickstarter idler gear, or clutch basket. There is no need to "time them" with the crank or each other. (The balancer shaft gears do have to be timed, but you shouldn't have fooled with them.) But there is a gotcha on the clutch pressure cap where you have to align the small hole near the center with a pin on the clutch hub so they lie over one another. I have no idea what this does but some have not done this and had clutch problems.

Oh, the joys of KTM ownership!!

I'm sure I've missed some things (comments welcome and I'll revise any mistakes and update with further suggestions), but I'm probably risking a server crash with this treatise as it stands.

Ride safe,

- Mark
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:31 PM   #264
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Anyone have a bearing puller they wouldn't mind lending to orange kool-aid drinker in need?
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:03 PM   #265
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Send me a note and I'll send you out mine.

Can't imagine I'll ever need it again.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:42 PM   #266
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Got my bearing out tonight. Pretty anti-climactic when suddenly you just don't feel resistance, but i'm glad it's out.

Question though: fearing putting the bearing in too far, I err'd on the side of putting the bearing with a small lip sticking out. Nothing major, but a bit out from flush. Anyone know any reason that could be a big problem?
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:42 AM   #267
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chester13 View Post
Looks like bearing pullers are starting to become a stock item in most of our tool boxes.

I'm just dying to us mine again but fear I'll never get the chance. It was such an accomplishment at the time.

Cheers,

Just like a Jedi has to build his own lightsabre...
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:16 AM   #268
gunnerbuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supercoyote View Post
Got my bearing out tonight. Pretty anti-climactic when suddenly you just don't feel resistance, but i'm glad it's out.

Question though: fearing putting the bearing in too far, I err'd on the side of putting the bearing with a small lip sticking out. Nothing major, but a bit out from flush. Anyone know any reason that could be a big problem?
Put the bearing in flush with the case surface, then your retaining plate will hold it in place.. If you leave the bearing sticking out the mainshaft will slide towards the clutch side as you manipulate the clutch lever... Over time this slop will increase to the point where the bearing may start to rock or spin in the case...
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:03 AM   #269
Syncrosimon
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After 15,500 miles on the original 1999 ball bearing i decided to take the plunge and have a go myself.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]

Being over in the united Kingdom I was not aware of anyone with the pullers, and have never seen another LC4 Enduro on the roads or trails, let alone a 400cc.

The making of the bolts was straightforward, and I used an angle grinder. I made my bolts more Tee shaped, so they slotted in and turned 90 degrees and gripped both the outer and inner rings.

I used a rain gutter connector as the standoff.

I broke the rivets by hitting one rivet with a drift, this stretches the cage, and pops the rivet. I had an assistant with a vacuum cleaner sucking out any loose debris. Two hits on different rivets and the whole thing came out. Took about a minute.

One leg broke on the first attempt. This had the thinnest neck.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]
I also distorted the gutter standoff, so the next time around I tightened the bolts all by hand, then only turned each bolt 1/5 of a turn each time. I adjusted the torque so all 3 bolts were the same.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]

With a beautiful 'Pop' out came the bearing. Took about 5 minutes once the puller was right.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]


I taped the bolts together over the shaft.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]
The pullers turned 90 degs and locked in.

[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]
Slightly elated I set about the install.

I had frozen the new bearing overnight, and heated the cases with a hot air gun till hand hot. The bearing drifted in with a bit of hardwood with almost no effort. drove it home flush to the case. A small amount of play was still in the shaft (in and out). I put the washer side in first.
[IMG]Untitled[/IMG]

If anyone wants the bearing puller in the U.K let me know.

Top Tips.

1. Use three pullers.
2. Only turn 1/5th at a time on each bolt.
3. Freeze the bearing and heat the case. Works like a charm.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:23 AM   #270
Dirtstar1
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Lc4 main shaft removal

This write up on the main shaft bearing was super helpful. It took the unknown out of doing this repair. Thank you all for your valuable input. This site is awesome.

Btw, I made really quick vid on how I did bearing extraction. Hope this helps others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgngkyHJJYs&sns=em

http://youtu.be/EgngkyHJJYs

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