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Old 10-27-2012, 11:40 PM   #16
V-Stormer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keiji View Post
I had a Klim Latitude that leaked., basically the front napolean pockets aren't waterproof and water can seep in through there which happens if you have little wind protection, say on a dual sport..... Pretty sure the traverse can be the same way. I also had a lot of trouble with water leaking through the water resistant zips on the arms as the storm flap would always billow up while riding.
So did Klim fix the problem or replace the jacket under their "Guaranteed to keep you dry warranty"? This is one of the reasons many purchase their product line, so I'm very interested to know if they kept their word.

I only ride one of two dual sports, a R1200GS and a DR350, so very little in between me and the elements. I've considered the Lattitude, so it's good to know that model could be a problem . . . maybe Traverse as well. But I like the 3 layer outer shell feature of the Badlands and would hope as a "dual sport" specific solution, they've got that one sealed shut!
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:58 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by V-Stormer View Post
So did Klim fix the problem or replace the jacket under their "Guaranteed to keep you dry warranty"? This is one of the reasons many purchase their product line, so I'm very interested to know if they kept their word.

I only ride one of two dual sports, a R1200GS and a DR350, so very little in between me and the elements. I've considered the Lattitude, so it's good to know that model could be a problem . . . maybe Traverse as well. But I like the 3 layer outer shell feature of the Badlands and would hope as a "dual sport" specific solution, they've got that one sealed shut!
Klim attempted repair, accidentally damaged a zipper, repaired that, and it still leaked. From that point on their stance was water resistant zippers aren't waterproof and water through the zippers doesn't count as a leak. I sent it to W.L. Gore after that and they offered to buy me a replacement (any brand), or a refund. I took the refund, but I won't get the check for another two or three weeks. From start to finish, about 3 months of putting up with it.

I am not too optimistic about the badlands as the arm zippers are pretty much the same? Tension straps near a WR zipper is an awful idea as it will part the zippers leaving the storm flap (that has no velcro) as the only defense.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by keiji View Post
Klim attempted repair, accidentally damaged a zipper, repaired that, and it still leaked. From that point on their stance was water resistant zippers aren't waterproof and water through the zippers doesn't count as a leak. I sent it to W.L. Gore after that and they offered to buy me a replacement (any brand), or a refund. I took the refund, but I won't get the check for another two or three weeks. From start to finish, about 3 months of putting up with it.

I am not too optimistic about the badlands as the arm zippers are pretty much the same? Tension straps near a WR zipper is an awful idea as it will part the zippers leaving the storm flap (that has no velcro) as the only defense.
Thanks for the heads-up. I might be reconsiding Klim as well then! Their "won't leak guarantee" must be on the fabric only and not their design, which is unfortunate to hear. The 3 months dealing with a problem is not a good sign either. In the middle of the winter when it's raining a lot, you need a jacket on hand and all that time going back and forth is not practical.

A lot of reports on the Badlands I've seen so far (here on ADV and elsewhere) don't mention leaking through the zippers if the zipper garages are secured properly. I don't keep the arm bands snug either. But I'll have to do some more research on real world reviews. What I don't understand is that these manufacturers put the zipper flaps facing the inside. A body is like a cyclinder in the wind and the air flow wants to move from the center, around the sides and toward the back. With the flap opening facing the center of the body, they catch the wind instead of deflecting it. Same on the arms, particularly with the AST. It's simple aerodynamics. In a waterproof jacket with good venting, the priority should be on waterproof rather than the venting, so they should fasten the damed flaps so the fixed side is toward to the inside (center of the body) so they'll work properly. My GS provides a small amount of wind protection, but the DR (which I ride during our monsoon winter season), is about as exposed as being tied to a mast in a hurricane.

So what did you decide to replace the Klim jacket with?

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:30 PM   #19
keiji
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So what did you decide to replace the Klim jacket with?
I just used a jacket I had previously - a Spidi Ergo 365 Pro (removable liner system). Liner for the lighter rains, rain jacket over top for the heavy rains.

I really like the idea of the external laminate, but execution is lacking in a lot of jackets. It's no good if I can't be confident I'll arrive dry and have to wear a rain jacket anyway, plus it'll still get heavier than a rain jacket once the DWR wets out.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:34 PM   #20
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Have an Olympia AST one. It has this issue with water penetrating the top seams at the top of the vent zippers but this is not noticeable with the insulated liner installed it is so minute. Also it is not water but dampness and only after 15+ minutes in the heavy rain. My jacket has just survived and protected me in a 40mph crash and resulting slide so for the price I would still buy another. Great abrasion protection and venting compared to the competition but if you want 100% water proof (will keep you dry with a high pressure hose sprayed on you) buy dedicated high quality rain gear because you will not find it in a 4 season jacket < $600.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:00 PM   #21
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I couldn't be happier with my Olympia gear.....

But I have the air glide with the liner. There is not a jacket out there that does not utilize a liner that will keep you 100% dry. Everyone on this board that rides in the rain has complained at one time or another about leaking gear in heavy downpours. I plan on buying a new Olympia Moto X suit after the first of the year. It also has liners. The Klim stuff has had leaks as well and does not breathe very well in warmer climates.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:55 PM   #22
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Yeah, I went through the ast arm leak saga too, on 2 jackets.

Went back to aerostich: darien jacket, ad1 pants. No leaks. The most was some wicking up at the cuffs, with what was a glove problem (since solved).

Can't speak of others, but stich works for me.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Yeah, I went through the ast arm leak saga too, on 2 jackets.

Went back to aerostich: darien jacket, ad1 pants. No leaks. The most was some wicking up at the cuffs, with what was a glove problem (since solved).

Can't speak of others, but stich works for me.
I've heard good things about Aerostich, but after having a jacket with pretty decent ventilation, it's hard to go back. I've been in some damned hot weather with the AST and with a dampened LG Comfort Tee underneath, it was like riding with air-conditioning!

The two significant problems in my mind with the AST . . . 1 ) the outside fabric gets way too wet and heavy, and even if I could live with that, 2) the quality and construction of the waterproof membrane was very weak and not abrasion resistant. I never had a problem with the vent zippers leaking as far as I can tell, just a failure of the membrane itself. Every other feature, fit and design aspect of it was fine.

I'm still leaning toward the Klim Badlands for those two reasons, plus the similar venting. I hope I'm not disappointed, but I'm having a really hard time finding any reports or reviews that indicate problems with the Badlands.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #24
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You would think these companies would learn from other industries already using "True" waterproof garments. I've been an avid offshore sailor for years, companies like Henri Loyd, Musto and Gill have excellent foul weather gear. I've had to rely on this gear for days offshore of constant rain and sray and they work great.

The only reason I can think of as to why the motorcycle industry have not succeeded as well as the marine industry in true waterproofing is due to the abrasion resistance required for riding gear. I can only hope that they get a handle on it soon. I've been through many jackets and pants none have kept me dry for any length of time, I've been using a full rain suit over my gear and so far it's the only thing to keep me completely dry.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by rheritage View Post
You would think these companies would learn from other industries already using "True" waterproof garments. I've been an avid offshore sailor for years, companies like Henri Loyd, Musto and Gill have excellent foul weather gear. I've had to rely on this gear for days offshore of constant rain and sray and they work great.

The only reason I can think of as to why the motorcycle industry have not succeeded as well as the marine industry in true waterproofing is due to the abrasion resistance required for riding gear. I can only hope that they get a handle on it soon. I've been through many jackets and pants none have kept me dry for any length of time, I've been using a full rain suit over my gear and so far it's the only thing to keep me completely dry.
Abrasion resistance is certainly a factor, but so is venting. You don't have the luxury on a bike to just stow your waterproof gear in a footlocker when you don't need it, so it's more important to have one system that will do it all . . . at least to a large degree, but waterproofness is the top priorty. You can always open up the front of your jacket if it's unbearably hot, but if you get wet, you're screwed.


As to the full rain suit . . . I was in a torrential downpour on my ride home from work yesterday with my non-breathable rain shell over top of my AST and was completely dry. But I hate having to carry that extra gear, (and wearing it) especially when off road touring. Packing light and compact is a necessity. Would be nice to have just one set of pants and jacket that can meet all conditions. I think the manufacturers are close, though. But I still think they are all designing convenience ahead of practicality. On every jacket on the market, the zipper cover flaps are fixed on the wrong side in my opinion. They catch wind and rain rather than deflect it. I'd rather be fussing with a zipper to open it under a flap that works to seal out moisture, then dealing with the moisture itself.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:00 AM   #26
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Nice stories. As a guy who has a waterproof product to sell I run across this type of thing all the time. MOST every product sold as waterproof is not and the manufacture does not care at all. That's what the guarentee is for. Second rate stuff gets mass marketed to us ALL the time and as you have found out, getting waterproof and bargin price in the same product is very difficult. Not to mention that most stuff is contracted out to factories that crank out garments by the thousands for different OEM's every day.

My waterproof seat covers will NEVER leak but it comes at cost and I hear it all the time. Fact is, the material alone costs me MORE than the selling price of my competition. So what do I do? I buy the very best stuff in the world and have to charge for it. Many don't want to pay but that's ok. You'll never see a post on ADV saying my stuff leaked. It's made for the guy who's sick and tired of buying stuff that does not work as advertized.

Testing my stuff all the time means that I'm in the rain all the time. I must have every glove ever made. Jackets, too.
The ONLY ones that have never left me wet cost an arm and a leg. EVERY mid-range product I've used has failed. As an aside, I test most of the rain gear for my dealer. Whenever they get new stuff for weather I test it for them. This is to keep the salesmen honest, or as honest as they can be (on the wholesale end).

Quality control is another huge issue. There is a small % of even the good stuff that has factory defects. The only reliable way to know FOR SURE that stuff is watertight prior to use is the bucket test and/or shower test. Yep, it's a pain to do but it's the only way to know.

My .02
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:49 PM   #27
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17 hour run from Alabama back to Canada last Sunday, most of it in a little rain shower called Sandy. Darien jacket, AD1 pants, and I was dry the whole time.

That'll do.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:12 PM   #28
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No better test ever devised!
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by KingOfFleece View Post
Second rate stuff gets mass marketed to us ALL the time and as you have found out, getting waterproof and bargin price in the same product is very difficult.

EVERY mid-range product I've used has failed.

Quality control is another huge issue. There is a small % of even the good stuff that has factory defects.
My .02
Notable points . . . which is why I'd have no problem spending big bucks on a Klim Badlands 2 piece suit this time around. I too have found the mid-range stuff to fail . . . which is why we're here. However, when I spend $1,500 on a waterproof suit, with a guarantee . . . I expect it to do what they say or they should fix it. The "water resistant zippers aren't waterproof" excuse doesn't fly with me . . . so I'm a bit disappointed to hear that Klim gave that excuse to Keiji. That's why the zippers have covers and everything should be placed in such a way that it's foolproof (arm tensioners, zipper flaps/garages) and waterproof. If they can't guarantee that, then they shouldn't claim it to be waterproof. I just hope Keiji's experience is the exception, not the rule.

I also agree that there is always a small percentage of manufacturing quality control issues and I can accept that too as long they can and will fix, replace or refund it without excuses.

I don't expect to swim in a riding jacket, so the bucket test to me is not realistic . . . riding in the downpours coming from every angle, at highway speed, without a wall of plexiglass and plastic between you and the onslaught is how it should be tested. Real world. Wind has a way of forcing water into nooks and crannies that gravity won't. :)

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Old 11-04-2012, 05:50 PM   #30
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The "water resistant zippers aren't waterproof" excuse doesn't fly with me . . . so I'm a bit disappointed to hear that Klim gave that excuse to Keiji. That's why the zippers have covers and everything should be placed in such a way that it's foolproof (arm tensioners, zipper flaps/garages) and waterproof. If they can't guarantee that, then they shouldn't claim it to be waterproof. I just hope Keiji's experience is the exception, not the rule.
Update . . . I emailed Klim and they acknowledged that there is a seam in a cargo pocket that cannot be sealed, so in certain conditions, water may leak into the pocket, but it will not leak through the jacket. If it does leak into the jacket, or for any leakage through zippers (if the zipper covers and garages are used properly), that will be warranteed. So this is what they're saying . . . we'll see . . . decided I'm going to spring for the Badlands suit this week.
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