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Old 06-27-2012, 11:58 AM   #916
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
20.4 is a joke. They simply don't seem interested in enforcing it.

Let's not forget that Hamilton was as guilty of stupidity as Maldonado.
agreed
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:48 PM   #917
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seven years...

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Old 06-27-2012, 01:58 PM   #918
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That's kinda cool.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:51 PM   #919
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That's kinda cool.
+1

Quality ages well, doesn't it?
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:54 PM   #920
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seven years...

Haha that's awesome! Its funny how much happier Kimi looks in the new photo.
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:56 AM   #921
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Since you're big into quoting rules, where is this rule?
I haven't said that it is a rule. Are you suggesting that there is no such onus on a driver? F1 isn't a demolition derby. There is enough precedence where drivers are penalised for causing an avoidable collision.

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Again, who is at fault in this incident is murky and you can argue that Hamilton's "crowding" was inadvertent, perhaps out of his control, or that he had more right to the corner than Maldo, but my word, let's call a spade a spade - he absolutely, positively did run Maldo off the track.

- Mark
It's only "murky" to those who want to apportion blame in a different manner than the stewards.

How the hell can "crowding" be inadvertent? The word means to intentionally pressure another driver off the chosen line. "Crowding" without intent is called a slide or a skid. In other words, a loss of control of the car's direction (for whatever reason).

The fact that Maldonado failed to account for the lack of grip Hamilton had is down to either his exuberance or his lack of experience (possibly both) but that's not the point. The point is that he rejoined unsafely, that he didn't have to spear into the McLaren is shown by the second lap incident at the same location when Raikkonen tried a similar pass but rejoined safely in a manner that Maldonado later claimed wasn't possible.
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:55 AM   #922
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In my 40 years of racing it's always been the responsibility of the rider making the pass to do so in a safe manner.

And it's Hamilton,WTF did you expect?
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:05 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
I haven't said that it is a rule. Are you suggesting that there is no such onus on a driver? F1 isn't a demolition derby. There is enough precedence where drivers are penalised for causing an avoidable collision.

It's only "murky" to those who want to apportion blame in a different manner than the stewards.

How the hell can "crowding" be inadvertent? The word means to intentionally pressure another driver off the chosen line. "Crowding" without intent is called a slide or a skid. In other words, a loss of control of the car's direction (for whatever reason).

The fact that Maldonado failed to account for the lack of grip Hamilton had is down to either his exuberance or his lack of experience (possibly both) but that's not the point. The point is that he rejoined unsafely, that he didn't have to spear into the McLaren is shown by the second lap incident at the same location when Raikkonen tried a similar pass but rejoined safely in a manner that Maldonado later claimed wasn't possible.
So Maldonado needs to keep track of the wear on all of the other competitors tires now?
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:36 AM   #924
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So Maldonado needs to keep track of the wear on all of the other competitors tires now?
Well having followed Hamilton's McLaren long enough to see that it was struggling for grip and determined that the problem Hamilton had provided a good opportunity for him to pass, I'd expect Maldonado to have a pretty good understanding of the wear issue Hamilton was dealing with.

It makes Maldonado's cock-up even less forgivable.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:56 PM   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. T. T-W View Post
How the hell can "crowding" be inadvertent? The word means to intentionally pressure another driver off the chosen line. "Crowding" without intent is called a slide or a skid. In other words, a loss of control of the car's direction (for whatever reason).

The fact that Maldonado failed to account for the lack of grip Hamilton had is down to either his exuberance or his lack of experience (possibly both) but that's not the point.
I would have thought of the two drivers, Hamilton would be the one most aware of the McLaren's level of grip.

Given that, the "crowding" of Maldonado off the track would be Hamilton's responsibility. He's the one who chose his entry speed.

Naturally, stewards weren't interested, just as they weren't with Kimi x2. Why have the rule if they don't enforce it?
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:18 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by wxwax View Post
I would have thought of the two drivers, Hamilton would be the one most aware of the McLaren's level of grip.
I agree but what has that to do with Maldonado's actions? Are you suggesting that Hamilton should just have pulled aside or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax
Given that, the "crowding" of Maldonado off the track would be Hamilton's responsibility. He's the one who chose his entry speed.
"Crowding" must by definition be a chosen course of action and not simply the effect of worn tyres. Otherwise there would need to be a rule that requires drivers to pit for new rubber whenever they lose grip and given that the FIA has asked the tyre supplier to provide tyres with reduced life "to improve the spectacle", that seems unlikely to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wxwax
Naturally, stewards weren't interested, just as they weren't with Kimi x2. Why have the rule if they don't enforce it?
The only "natural" thing appears to be the unwillingness of some to accept that the FIA race stewards found no evidence that Hamilton "crowded" Maldonado. As I said earlier, they'd have looked at the telemetry from both drivers, if any steering inputs from Hamilton showed that he'd steered into the Williams, I suspect that the penalty would have been negated. We will probably never see the traces but I'd be willing to bet a pound to a pinch of shit that the telemetry showed Hamilton steering away from Maldonado.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:17 PM   #927
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You guys are still here crying about this?
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:22 PM   #928
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I agree but what has that to do with Maldonado's actions? Are you suggesting that Hamilton should just have pulled aside or something?

"Crowding" must by definition be a chosen course of action and not simply the effect of worn tyres. Otherwise there would need to be a rule that requires drivers to pit for new rubber whenever they lose grip and given that the FIA has asked the tyre supplier to provide tyres with reduced life "to improve the spectacle", that seems unlikely to happen.
Hamilton chose his course of action by going into that turn faster than would allow him to maintain a tighter line and not crowd Maldonado off the track. Simples.

Any suggestion that Hamilton didn't deliberately force Maldo off on purpose is a bit silly, especially given how he chose to handle Maldo's re-entry. The stewards really don't seem interested in preventing that kind of driving, as they showed with Kimi on two occasions in a single race. He did the same thing. (And yes, I know the fig leaf of rationalization that they used back then.)
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:23 PM   #929
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You guys are still here crying about this?
7 more days and we can start crying about something else. Patience, grasshopper.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:34 PM   #930
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No need to get so exercised.

Both drivers made mistakes. Only the utterly naive would think that Hamilton didn't deliberately force Maldo off. And when Maldo made his re-entry mistake, Hamilton also blundered. He threw away 4th by trying to defend 3rd. Hard to see how 0 points is better than 12.

By closing the door and inviting a collision, Hamilton threw away his race for 3 points. That's the difference between 3rd and 4th. Obviously, red mist still overwhelms his race craft at times. It's been a problem all his career.

In conclusion, both drivers made mistakes. Much as Williams would have loved a podium, Hamilton's error was the more costly because he's in contention for the driver's title.
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