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Old 03-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #61
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
If he was scared of a 250, then I dread to think what effect an open class bike would have had!

New trials riders progress far faster if they are on user friendly machinery, and putting a beginner on a 300 Raga is really rather silly.

You guys are pathetic, you took my attempt to make a point and express a point, and f#cking turned it on its ear, f##king great, just to what, make fun of me and all I have tried to share and inspire new "to trials" people on this board.
Thanks
thanks
thanks!

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Old 03-05-2012, 01:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
You guys are pathetic, you took my attempt to make a point and express a point, and f#cking turned it on its ear, f##king great, just to what, make fun of me and all I have tried to share and inspire new "to trials" people on this board.
Thanks
thanks
thanks!

Suggesting new riders opt for bikes which they have no real hope of coping with, isnt really likely to "inspire" anyone much. When I rode MX it was on a 500 KTM 2T, but there was no way on earth I would have ever recommended one to a new rider, as for one they wouldnt be able to ride the 500 as fast as a 125 or 250, and secondly there would be a pretty fair chance of them getting badly hurt!
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
If he was scared of a 250, then I dread to think what effect an open class bike would have had!

New trials riders progress far faster if they are on user friendly machinery, and putting a beginner on a 300 Raga is really rather silly.
I did this to my dad (put him on a 300 Raga) and nearly scared him away from the sport for good. And he's a guy who's been riding for 45yrs, rides competently on everything from woods to outdoor motocross to road courses. Next bike we tried him on was a modern Sherco 250; he hated that too. The modern bikes are just so extreme and so responsive, it's difficult to transition to one for a lot of people, I think. The biggest problem I see is that they do EXACTLY what you "tell" them do via your throttle, clutch, brake, and body positioning inputs. They immediately scream out and penalize you for doing things wrong. They're unforgiving. If you hamfist the throttle you'll loop it. If you grab too much brake it'll put you on your head. If you sloppily release the clutch the whole bike will pop out from under you. It's all by design; they're light and lively and ultra responsive because that's the way they need to be to traverse expert/pro level courses.Just takes some time to realize that the signals your brain is sending your hands, feet, and ass are wrong and need adjustment, not the bike.

I don't know what to put him on that would be more forgiving and fun 'til he gets those brain signals tuned, a bit. A TL200? I guess this is why there are all the "detune" packages available for these modern bikes.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:43 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ThrottleJock View Post
I did this to my dad (put him on a 300 Raga) and nearly scared him away from the sport for good. And he's a guy who's been riding for 45yrs, rides competently on everything from woods to outdoor motocross to road courses. Next bike we tried him on was a modern Sherco 250; he hated that too. The modern bikes are just so extreme and so responsive, it's difficult to transition to one for a lot of people, I think. The biggest problem I see is that they do EXACTLY what you "tell" them do via your throttle, clutch, brake, and body positioning inputs. They immediately scream out and penalize you for doing things wrong. They're unforgiving. If you hamfist the throttle you'll loop it. If you grab too much brake it'll put you on your head. If you sloppily release the clutch the whole bike will pop out from under you. It's all by design; they're light and lively and ultra responsive because that's the way they need to be to traverse expert/pro level courses.Just takes some time to realize that the signals your brain is sending your hands, feet, and ass are wrong and need adjustment, not the bike.

I don't know what to put him on that would be more forgiving and fun 'til he gets those brain signals tuned, a bit. A TL200? I guess this is why there are all the "detune" packages available for these modern bikes.
Thats 100% correct..................but those who suggest large capacity modern bikes for a beginner, over a modern 125 or better still a twin-shock simply wont understand your post.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Thats 100% correct..................but those who suggest large capacity modern bikes for a beginner, over a modern 125 or better still a twin-shock simply wont understand your post.
I think you're right. Same mentality is common in the street bike world where recommendations for displacement size is often based on rider weight. Yep, put the guy who just passed his MSF course on a 180hp literbike because he's 250lbs. There's no WAY an anemic little 125hp 600 would pull that weight around, right? And he wouldn't be caught dead on the bike a newbie SHOULD start on (SV650/DR400Z/Kawi Versys/etc).

I think I'm going to try to put him on a TY250 to get the inner ear tuned, half because it's a simple, less extreme bike which he'll likely "gel" with rapidly, and half because I'd love to have something to run vintage class on. Ha! When he's dialed in and ready to move into the modern realm I'll sell hiim my Raga and order one of those shiny new Ossa's.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:01 PM   #66
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I just picked up a 96 Beta Techno for my first trials bike. $1,000 where anything newer was $2,500 to $3,000. After 2 weeks of trainning on it I do not think it's too extreme for a starter bike.

The only disapointment is the availabilty of parts. No rear fenders available at all. I'm not against old bikes, I just like to keep it perfectly maintained.

Also, there's the pride of ownership thing that drawls noobs to newer bikes. Kind of harsh to say "you can't have a nice new one because you don't have the skill to ride it."
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by DrKayak View Post
Also, there's the pride of ownership thing that drawls noobs to newer bikes. Kind of harsh to say "you can't have a nice new one because you don't have the skill to ride it."
No doubt there, added to the fact that motorcycles are so inexpensive as compared to many other luxury items. A guy can go out and buy the most cutting-edge, high-tech, high-end trials bike available for under 10 grand. Anybody with $15K can walk into a BMW (bike) dealership and ride away on a superbike capable of 200hp, 200mph, and high 8 second quarter miles with a few minor tweaks. Equate that to cars and the cheapest performance-per-dollar comparison still puts you at around $100K (GT-R or ZR-1). Based on that, I can completely understand the logic behind buying the biggest/baddest/nastiest bike one can afford - I mean, when I got my first "real" job and wanted a new motocross bike I drove right down to the Honda shop and paid full retail for a shiny new CR500R; arguably the biggest/baddest/meanest motocross bike ever in the history of mankind. Perfect for a 23yr old muscle-head kid who thought he could handle anything but whose previous dirt bike was a KDX200, right? No, not at all. It was NOT the right bike for me. I did have fun on it though and figured out how to ride it (well) very quickly. I'd been riding dirt for 10yrs already at that point though so maybe that's not a good example> Anyway you get my point. I think I had a point. Ah yes, that I understand the mindset that drives one to want the Raga/Literbike/ZR-1 but now that we're all older and wiser, we know better and it's our job to advise otherwise, right?
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:09 AM   #68
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Twin-shocker I thought this fking thread was about trials? /quote SO WTF with the streetbike stuff??

I beg you guys, to think through what you are posting.

The raga 300 pro has Something like 21 horse power. the 500cc Motocross bike has like damn near 70 HP. Then fking street-bikes have as stated in post, like 170 all the way up over 300 possible HP, let alone weight diffeerences and all that crap.

FWIW, the 125 has like at best, something like 8-10 horse power, PLUS There is NO COMPARISON since my example, the bikes weigh within 5 lbs of each other from 125 to 300cc.

My point is, you don't get to say a big trials bike is scary, when you have less than 20 hours of actually riding the son of a bitch. That is like having most of these 30-year-never-better-than-novices, and beginners, tell master and pro riders how to jump up on the 8ft rock! DAMN.

IF ANY of you had a clue, had any experience with doing anything but riding on the street, or around a racetrack, you would already know the pitfalls of riding an under-torqued underwhelming powered 125cc 2stroke, let alone a half-of-that powered 4stroke of the same "class" (any bike) is going to be, if you are bigger than a 12 year old normal kid.

The biggest obstacle for the trials bikes, is the rider. Most newbies have sat on their collective asses, for however many years they have been riding. This is not a Skill, sitting down. Sorry you prove it when you cannot stand onthe pegs and balance it. Plus it uses helluva lot less strength obviously, or even balance ovioulsy, and that is just to begin with.

Need PROOF? If you stand up in a moving or stationary vehicle and it suddenly move at a different rate, you will get the same spooked feeling.

What I have seen even in women and children, let alone grown men, is after a fairly few hours, they get used to being in control, and able to control the bike, even the big old scary 300/280 cc bikes. the same kind of control we have to collectively kind of assume, that anyone in here on a "adventure motorcycle website" might have or at least be able to attain. When someone is spooked on a bike like expressed by Throttle Jock, I think without hesitation, the guy was at the whole time, even if powered by an oset engine, out if his comfort zone. and by my guess, has less than 3 hours total "peg" time on a trials bike.

Im not at a P90X or skateboard website telling those people how to ride a trials bike, or any bike. and I think it is fair to say for majority of average rider skills, the 125cc bike, however neato some dipshits think they are, will prove to be underpowered, once you ever get passed the 'get used to it" stages.

Another caveat, I know most cycle enthusiasts (on average) have more money to throw at "toys" than some, usually due to smart cost savings all through the rest of a budget. But some of you act as though you will buy a bike each week or even hourly, if it fits your newly aquired skills level, be it lost skill or gain skill. I wasn't raised like that, I dont know but I bet the average reader/rider on this board cant do that!!!

I buy for example, a 2stroke 250 Motocross because 99 of 100 (motocycle) people felt it was the size I that would best fit me. I learned to ride that bike, even though it was wickedly different than the 350cc Sherpa-t I had. Was I a pro MX racer? no, but I took the few days/weekend to "get used to the bike" and became a damn decent enough rider. Add to this, that Trail riding an MX bike was a bitch compared to trials bikes, but it was far easier than if I had the 125, Most readers on this board will agree, hell that is half what they hope a trials or trials crossover bike brings to the table for them, in backwoods exploring...

Lastly, learning how to control and cope with the new fangled bike, bicycle, lawnmower, whatever... Same shit is expected of any new rider.

If you dont think so, I think you are in denial of any human experience, from any perspective. Sure, 125 is better than no bike, even if you weigh more than 140 lbs... but that is as far as I believe you can stretch that fact or statement.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:02 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Twin-shocker I thought this fking thread was about trials? SO WTF with the streetbike stuff??
It's an analogy, and IMO a valid one. And I don't think Twin-shocker brought the street bike comparison up.

Quote:
I beg you guys, to think through what you are posting.
Likewise.

Quote:
My point is, you don't get to say a big trials bike is scary, when you have less than 20 hours of actually riding the son of a bitch.
I disagree. Not every new rider is willing to be scared for 20 hours or whatever until they start to gain control. Many new riders will take much longer. You apparently only run into new riders who all learn very quickly.

Quote:
IF ANY of you had a clue
You make friends quickly, I bet.

Quote:

The biggest obstacle for the trials bikes, is the rider. Most newbies have sat on their collective asses, for however many years they have been riding. This is not a Skill, sitting down. Sorry you prove it when you cannot stand onthe pegs and balance it. Plus it uses helluva lot less strength obviously, or even balance ovioulsy, and that is just to begin with.
So there is no skill involved in roadracing, enduro, etc. because those riders sit a lot?

Quote:
What I have seen even in women and children, let alone grown men, is after a fairly few hours, they get used to being in control, and able to control the bike, even the big old scary 300/280 cc bikes. the same kind of control we have to collectively kind of assume, that anyone in here on a "adventure motorcycle website" might have or at least be able to attain. When someone is spooked on a bike like expressed by Throttle Jock, I think without hesitation, the guy was at the whole time, even if powered by an oset engine, out if his comfort zone. and by my guess, has less than 3 hours total "peg" time on a trials bike.
So those riders who are out of their comfort zone on an Oset don't get to ride trials? It doesn't make sense to you to start those riders on something more tame?

Quote:
the 125cc bike, however neato some dipshits think they are, will prove to be underpowered, once you ever get passed the 'get used to it" stages.
You've called me clueless and a dipshit so far. Thanks.

Quote:
If you dont think so, I think you are in denial of any human experience, from any perspective.
Or maybe anyone who doesn't think so simply has a different opinion than you.

I'm not advocating that the 125 is a good starter bike for every rider. I don't even think it's a good starter bike for a lot of riders. I also don't think that a modern 290 whatever is the best bike for a new rider. That's my opinion and it doesn't get me all fired up if someone disagrees. I'll explain my thoughts if someone is interested and the buyer can make his/her own informed decision based on input from multiple sources.

YMMV, of course.

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:11 AM   #70
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Interesting how those who dont have much of a clue get so worked up when anyone takes issue with what they are suggesting.................lol
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:32 AM   #71
Sting32
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Interesting how those who dont have much of a clue get so worked up when anyone takes issue with what they are suggesting.................lol

No, I get worked up when you try to bend the reality of weighted truths.

If I, or anyone decided to just now, even if I have never rode a bike, weighs in at 140 - 180 lbs or so, reads any of these threads where in you and detractors that believe like you, keep suggesting that more than half of the people who ride trials, are overbiked, and would be so well served on an anemic 125 and you make it sound if they produced a 100 that would be even better. That is where I get worked up.

for nearly decades now, a 250 anything was the "average" persons likely choice for a dirt bike. You still contend that all manufaturers picked that number and are forcing them down our throat, and all of us are dumbasses for buying them up!!!???

instead of it actually being the size that seems to fit the market. Same with trials bikes, that for decades the fitness of the bike was a lot better with the 350 bultaco, 349 montessa, and then some smaller 250 Jap bikes. sure, I and others after figuring a bunch of riding skills out, and compare to the short commings of any bike, can modify the hell out of EVEN an aneic 200cc but fat heavy Reflex, to have ALMOST enough power to ride in above beginner class trials.

but for cryin out loud, I am saying for average, most are going to want at least a 250cc, since Gasgas is the only one producing 250, I have to say something else or listen to half of you bitch about being gasgas brainwashed, when I dont really f*king care which brand you buy... Which then again changed the tones of this thread, which was to give out some experience, which is hard to do when posting, versus a conversation.

I removed the quotes because my arguements made the post long enough, if you were directly called a dipshit, then well You must have recommended that a man at 140 lbs should buy a 125, somewhere in the topic. OR you were one that said half the riders were over biked. I contend that the better rider you become, the "hotter" more powerful, snappy, all that is DESIRED. You think Bou is detuning that more like 300cc Montessa he's riding? if you do, for Chrysler's sake, wake the hell up.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by motojunky View Post
It's an analogy, and IMO a valid one. And I don't think Twin-shocker brought the street bike comparison up.

Likewise.

I disagree. Not every new rider is willing to be scared for 20 hours or whatever until they start to gain control. Many new riders will take much longer. You apparently only run into new riders who all learn very quickly.

You make friends quickly, I bet.

So there is no skill involved in roadracing, enduro, etc. because those riders sit a lot?

So those riders who are out of their comfort zone on an Oset don't get to ride trials? It doesn't make sense to you to start those riders on something more tame?

You've called me clueless and a dipshit so far. Thanks.

Or maybe anyone who doesn't think so simply has a different opinion than you.

I'm not advocating that the 125 is a good starter bike for every rider. I don't even think it's a good starter bike for a lot of riders. I also don't think that a modern 290 whatever is the best bike for a new rider. That's my opinion and it doesn't get me all fired up if someone disagrees. I'll explain my thoughts if someone is interested and the buyer can make his/her own informed decision based on input from multiple sources.

YMMV, of course.
Motojunky, I was using your post as a... Let me reread what I posted, I think I missed something. if so sorry...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=62 of course I forgot twinshock brought up motocross right after bashing me for the analogy, now let me find the streetbike reference...

Ah here it is, throttle jock, I didnt have issues with him posting that, other than 1 600cc and 250cc streetbike is so different in size-weight-layout, that it is not funny. Sure some dipshits who never have ridden, go buy a Suzuki Hayabusa? But not if they were given real, honest, well explained advice, unless they are the guys that ignore anything, and there are a lot out there.

I dont recall I directly saying you are a clueless or dipshit directly as much as I think people that keep advocating that the 125 "is the bike to get" bullcrap, when it really is a bike that "might fit" certain circumstances, buy by far not the majority, which I highlighted and bolded from your post, you seem to agree. But your sentence right below the 125 remarks, pretty much excludes all manufatures except gasgas, since they used to make 160, 200, and now the 250cc sized bikes, which were dang good beginner sized bikes, but older and used ones, are as scarce as Hen's teeth.

FWIW, I didnt say most struggle for 20 hours, that was me trying to make a guestimate of when you can get on this board, and be "less than average experience with the trials bike." Not that anyone has to be scared shitless for 20 hours, jeez.

My point was kind of like this... if you learned to ride your 1st ever pedal bicycle in 15 minutes, without fear, then you definitely are the most gifted human on the planet probably... and with that mentality by god should tell all the 2-4 year olds how wrong they are if they used training wheels? I say no, but some of us might be interested in how you managed that feat, without some hand of god explanation that maybe we can try? its all a mute point since I cannot recall the battles Im sure I had even at age 5 learning to ride a motorcycle. I have the 8mm movies, but they didnt film the times I was scared and crying and frustrated like we can be, becuase they wanted to see me go up the (to me it was BIG) little hill in the back yard of house.

I dont know how to say it any plainer. If Jeremy McGrath got on here, and gave insight to why he was so damn successful at supercross, then I dont think I would keep posting that he and others like him would been better off riding something else, or that he was overbiked, or brainwashed by Honda or what not. No I dont have claim to McGrath type levels in trials either, so my posts arent that way. I posted what is easily seen in reality, when you think about all the wasted time and effort even I have had, in damn near 42 years now, of riding motorcycles, 40 of them in trials. not with-standing I know there are guys better than me out here, with as much experience, and I think they'd more or less agree with most of what I am trying to put forth.

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Old 04-05-2012, 07:46 AM   #73
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My $0.02...

I'm a new trials rider. I have a decade of motorcycle experience (outside of a couple dirtbikes as a kid), dualsport and street. Living where I do, I have the opportunity to ride some of the most beautiful and challenging terrain in the country, and I believe I've progressed enough to confidently say I am a decent rider.

A couple years back, I wanted to get into motocross. I wanted a CR250. People here told me it was too much bike, that I should start with a 125. I listened, and I totally regret the decision. Yes, it was safer, but it was way too underpowered. I stopped mx'ing because at 40 yrs old, I decided I didn't want to suffer the injuries necessary to learn. Man, the penalty for failure is high in motocross!!!

Last Oct I bought my first trials bike. Many people gave me the same type of advice - start on a small bike. This time I didn't listen, and bought a GG 280 Pro. I LOVE this bike!!!! Yes, it's got power that you have to have a healthy respect for. However, it's a bike that I can grow into; as opposed to grow out of. It took a few hours, and a few crashes, to learn control and respect, but now I love everything about the bike, and I don't regret the decision in the slightest. Like Sting said - it's not like your talking about a bike with 100+ horsepower that you're riding at 100+ mph. So the 280 has more power than I need most of the time. So what? So I loop it on an amateur line? Big deal!! I pick it up and try again...

One last point: It took me a couple months to find a good bike for sale. I don't want to go through that search again anytime soon. If I had bought a 125, I'm sure I would be kicking myself and already searching for a new purchase - - - it's not like the market is flooded with trials bikes for sale.

IMO: If you are an adult, and a decent motorcycle rider in general, start out a modern full-size bike. You'll drop it, loop it, go over the bars - but mostly at walking speeds. Pick it up, try again, and build your skills to match the potential of the bike. It will take you a long time to build your skills to match the potential of a modern full-size bike - - but it won't take you long at all to become bored with a tepid 125.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:24 AM   #74
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The bike choice thing is very simple when it comes to trials. If you want to master the basic skills required quickly and easily, then start on a smaller capacity bike, where you will be able to concentrate more on actually riding the bike, than trying to stop it getting away from you. When you are confident riding a smaller bike, then you will be able to ride bigger machines far better than those who still might not have mastered the basics, due to being overbiked.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:52 PM   #75
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Evangelism refers to the practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs.
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Telling people they are pathetic, clueless, dipshits doesn't help.
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