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Old 04-08-2012, 11:52 AM   #76
HackyMoto
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #77
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Very Generous Of You

Thanks for the offer and I may take you up on it in the near future. Waiting on TB rebuild kits by Dan, recently did valve job, idles way better, runs way better/smoother. 2 months now and just tonight I "punched-it" really for the first time. Soon enough I will start wearing down that last 3/4" of tread on each edge of the rear tire!

My name is Twinsig, and, I am an addict!
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #78
roger 04 rt OP
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I've been running with an LC-1 and BoosterPlug (or it could be an IICE Air), kind of a belt and suspenders approach. The LC-1 for Closed Loop and the BoosterPlug for Open Loop. For some time I have wanted to see how the LC-1 and Motronic performed without the BP shifting the stock Open Loop AFR tables 6% richer, because I know that on the R1150RT Adaptation Values get built from Closed Loop and get applied to Open Loop. Confirming that the Motronic worked that way would mean that the BoosterPlug was a nice-to-have (since I own one) in my application, not a need-to-have.

A key to these tests is a cold start, monitoring how the Motronic and LC-1 transition from cold (enriched and Open Loop) to warm (no afterstart or warmup enrichments, and Closed Loop). Therefore both tests were begun immediately after start and on the same course. (Note: In the upper chart, second half, I was modulating the throttle more than in the second half of the bottom chart. Otherwise, they are for the same course.)

In the attached photo, you can see the first ride (top chart) after the Motronic is reset and with no BP; and then a day later, the second ride in the chart below. In the first ride after reset (in my theory, before the Adaptation Values referred to in the BMW Service manual can be rebuilt) you can see a lot of deviations from 13.8:1. If you look carefully on the left of the top chart you can see the mixture starting at about 12:1 and then watch what happens while the bike warms up at about the 3 minute mark (same point on the second day, bottom chart). You can also see the histogram on the right, that being the distribution of all AFRs during each ride.

On the bottom graph, second ride from a cold start, you can see better adherence to 13.8 and a tighter histogram. (Ignore the spikes that go to the top of the chart, they are Overrun Fuel Cutoff.) It also gets to 13.8 right away, before the bike has warmed up and before it can be in Closed Loop, in the first minute or so. (Notice the dips to lower AFRs, that's where I'm accelerating and changing gears.) The only surprise in the lower chart is the blip to 14.7:1 (Open Loop target AFR of the reset Motronic) between 1:40 and 3:20 minutes. This was after a stop sign and reacceleration, before CL had started and perhaps (my deduction) in an area of the Adaptation Values table that had not built sufficient data yet.

I plan to make many more rides and watch this closely and will have some more data over the coming weeks.
RB

In the photo, there are two horizonal dotted lines. The top line is 14.7:1 (Open Loop Table before Adaptation) and the bottom line is at 13.8:1 (My AFR target set by the LC-1).
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
PS: I broke a tab on one of the fairings in my rush to open the bike. Any suggestions for how to glue to reattach a piece to the fairing (in the cylinder head area)?
I've only gotten this far in the thread so far. Please forgive redundancy if the repair has already been done.

Baking soda and Super Glue combined should work just fine. Sprinkle the joint with the powder and then drip Super Glue onto the damaged area. Scoring the surfaces with sand paper should help. In years past, this technique worked on my damaged Honda F2 instrument cluster mounting tabs.

Plastic welding with similar plastic will work, too.

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Old 04-29-2012, 05:02 AM   #80
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Yesterday afternoon I disconnected the Wideband O2 sensor so that I could measure the "raw" or Open Loop, Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) of the Motronic MA 2.4., with Pink Coding Plug. And then measure the Open Loop effect of the BoosterPlug. The motorcycle is running 93 Octane E10 fuel, which is important since it has shifted the curves upward by about 4%, meaning running 4% leaner.

In all the charts, there are two marker lines, one is at 14.7:1 (normal Closed Loop stoichiometric) and 13.8:1 (my richer Closed Loop target that creates more power). In the first photo there are two charts: the top chart is Open Loop, the lower Open Loop plus BoosterPlug.

The top chart below shows Open Loop AFR, after the Motronic is reset, and from a Cold start. For the first three minutes, you can see the AFR moving from 13:1 to the low 15s as the bike oil warms up. If I were running pure gas, the warmup would be in the 14.7 range, but E10 leans out the mixture. Much of the cruising time, the AFR is between 15:1 and 16.5:1--fairly lean. Notice in the histogram inset chart that the bulk of AFRs are between 14:1 and 16:1, even including acceleration.

The in the lower chart, the bike is warm, the Motronic is still reset but a BoosterPlug has been connected, dropping the air inlet temperature (AIT) signal to the Motronic by 20C. There is a similarly large spread of AFRs, but now they run between 13:1 and 15:1, about 6-7% richer. I was surprised at how much the AFR varies in Open Loop operation.



For comparison, look at the next photo, the conditions are reset Motronic, no BoosterPlug and Closed Loop at 13.8:1. The upper run is the first test run after reset and the lower run is the second run after reset. Since the Motronic is only Closed Loop about half the time in these charts, and comparing these two runs to the first photo (Open Loop conditions), you see Adaptation, the learning of Closed Loop applied to Open Loop conditions, and in the second run looking at the even tighter spread of AFRs, further Adaptation.



Some conclusions:

1) E10 fuel results in leaner Open Loop operation
2) Open Loop fueling results in a wide variation of AFRs
3) The BoosterPlug does enrichen the fueling tables by 6-7%
4) Closed Loop operation tightens the fueling range
5) Closed Loop operation allows the Motronic to correct for E10, aging injectors and air filters, and variations in battery voltage and fuel pressure.
6) The Motronic is a learning, adapting engine controller that takes what it measures in Closed Loop operation and applies it to adjust Open Loop fueling. (The mechanisms and degree could be examined further.)
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:03 PM   #81
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Today I had the chance to answer a question that's been on my mind, how would my 04 RT run if I programmed lambda from 0.94 where the Wideband O2 has been (13.8) to a leaner than stock setting of lambda=1.06 (15.6:1)? The answer: Not Terrible.

After programming the LC-1 to the leaner setting, and then resetting the Motronic and removing the BoosterPlug, I ran a 10 mile test loop. At first, during the warm-up phase with enrichment by the Motronic and Open Loop, it seemed fine. But as I passed through 4 bars on the temperature gauge, it was apparent that the motorcycle was noticeably less responsive to the throttle. Then, fully warmed up, I started a climb through the gears, guess what? The motocycle surged around 3000 RPM in second, third and fourth gears--not a pronounced surging, just subtle modulation of the torque and shifting note at the exhaust. I couldn't wait to get back and reset to lambda=0.94.

So what did I learn? There is definitely an AFR component to the Boxer surging phenomenon: 6% leaner than stock is too lean for sure, and I know that 6% richer is great. Where is the spot in between the two ends that is just rich enough? Just a guess, somewhere between 14.0 and 14.4.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #82
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GS-911 as Intertia Dynomometer

The GS-911 time stamps, to the millisecond, all the data it collects. Somewhere along the line it hit me that it could be used as a Inertia Dynomometer since it collects RPM data and the transmission ratios are printed in the R1150 BMW Repair Manual.

I've also been curious about the 1150 Torque at 2000 RPM at a 13.8:1 mixture. The final piece of the puzzle was using some of the HP physics that I boned-up on for the R1150 Gas Mileage thread.

A couple key (rough) numbers:

--8 to 12 ft/sec-squared is a decent rate of acceleration for town and highway driving.

--R1150RT and rider (in my case) weigh about 800 lbs.

--It takes 25 to 30 horsepower to accelerate bike and rider at 8-12 ft/sec2 plus 2-10 horsepower for aerodynamic drag between 30 and 60 MPH

--25 Horsepower corresponds to 65 ft-lbs of torque required at 2000 RPM. But 40 HP translates to only 52 ft-lbs. at 4000 RPM.

Have a look at the chart and data below which were taken in 4th and 5th gear, starting at 1500 RPM and 2000 RPM respectively and with Wide Open Throttle. It looks like (and felt like) there was just enough torque to meet the HP/Torque/Acceleration targets above at about 2000 RPM in 4th gear and about 2500 RPM in 5th.

There's lots to discover but, for instance, look at the 81 degree TPS angle and the 60-70 ft-lbs of torque. Notice too, the relatively flat rate of acceleration from 2000/2500 to 4000 RPM. It's making more HP as it accelerates but air-related drag is increasing too.

The graphs are choppy because I didn't use a high enough sampling rate and drop off at 4000 RPM or so because that's where I let go of the throttle on the in-town road where I was trying this out.

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Old 06-27-2012, 05:23 AM   #83
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Now that I have about 2000 miles on my '04 1150RT, wanted to see how things have settled in. It has been a couple of months since I last reset the Motronic and cleared any Adaptation Values that might have been "learned" by the Motronic. So I made a couple checks.

First I measured the warm-up transition from start to running closed loop. As mentioned, I haven't reset my Motronic for over a month and have taken many, varied rides. I wanted to see how things looked and whether there was clearly ADAPTATION going on. The results are that the Motronic has "learned" about the BoosterPlug, E10 fuel I run and Wideband O2 set at 13.8:1.

The result that can be seen from the chart below is that everything has been shifted to the desired afr of 13.8:1, including the cranking and warm up period. Booster, E10 fuel and LC-1 are operating in harmony with each other.

Below is the warm-up from a cold (85F is cold today) to hot (Closed Loop) motor. You can see the cranking and afterstart enrichment on the left at about 12-12.5:1, the initial warmup at 13.1:1 (about 5% below 13.8), final warmup enrichment at 13.3:1 (3%) for a few seconds and then smoothly transitioning into closed loop for the right hand half of the chart. The Closed Loop AFR spread is a mere 2.5% because of the speed of the LC-1. Gas mileage from for the most recent tank of fuel running premium E10 was 44 mpg (235 miles and 5.3 gallons).

The lines on the chart are blue 13.8:1 and red 13.3:1.


Here is an Autolite Plug with 2,000 miles of mostly local driving at 13.8.
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Old 07-03-2012, 05:36 PM   #84
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Just like to say thanks for this thread. Helps me understand why my bike doesn't behave like my old Bing carb one :)
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #85
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Thank you for sharing all this great information. I am thinking about setting up a dual channel version of this on my KTM. Your findings confirms a lot of my theories about how the modern FI systems work.
These facts also puts many of accepted conclusion to the test. I have never been a believer in disabling the stock O2 sensors and running PCIII units etc..
My KTM has a Keihin ECU but I am convinced that the same logics of operation applies.

Espeacially nice that you confirmed the adjustments made in closed loop carried over to the open loop operation.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:00 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by R85/8 View Post
Just like to say thanks for this thread. Helps me understand why my bike doesn't behave like my old Bing carb one :)
Thanks, appreciated.

Those older carbureted bikes ran richer and better, no two ways about it. But they had a lot of Carbon monoxide and unburned fuel in the exhaust.

Interestingly, on the 1100s shipped to Europe, the FI systems were run open loop, and 6% richer than the US Catalytic converter bikes. These bikes are pretty happy at 13.8:1.
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:06 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japanviking View Post
Thank you for sharing all this great information. I am thinking about setting up a dual channel version of this on my KTM. Your findings confirms a lot of my theories about how the modern FI systems work.
These facts also puts many of accepted conclusion to the test. I have never been a believer in disabling the stock O2 sensors and running PCIII units etc..
My KTM has a Keihin ECU but I am convinced that the same logics of operation applies.

Espeacially nice that you confirmed the adjustments made in closed loop carried over to the open loop operation.
Thanks. It took many test rides to confirm much of what's here. It now seems obvious that an ecu designer would want the benefit of having the ecu learn from closed loop operation. One thing that I have not had the time to figure out is the granularity of these learned adaptations. However, I would assume that even, maybe especially, at WOT a designer would want to correct for fuel quality, fuel pressure and fuel injector tolerance.

Here is some other info: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59622
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:28 AM   #88
roger 04 rt OP
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Here is a graph that I plotted a few days ago after fully reseting my Motronic, settting the LC-1 to 13.5. It took several rides at many RPMs, gears and TPS positions to relearn the Adaptation Values. Here's the plot, made after a warm restart, meaning that the bike was at temperature and was back in Closed Loop quickly.



What you can see is that for the first 12 seconds (until the 2:27 mark) the bike is Open Loop. In that period there is the After Start Enrichment and Warm-up Enrichment--the up-slope that levels at 13.2. Then at 2:27 it snaps into Closed Loop at 13.5.

What is noteworthy about this plot is that the entire curve has been shifted down by 12% or said another way, the Motronic has added 12% more fuel to both Open Loop and Closed Loop--4% more fuel because I run E10 and 8% more because the LC-1 is programmed to 13.5:1.

If the Closed Loop learning had not been applied to Open Loop (and you can see where Open Loop starts after a Motronic reset in plots from earlier in this long thread, here), The Open Loop phase would have started about 8% higher at 13:1 and the pre-closed-loop plateau would be at about 14.3:1, then it would have snapped down to 13.5 for the Closed Loop phase.

For me, this pretty fully settles the question of Adaptation and whether the Motronic MA 2.4 has that ability or not. Sometime when I get a chance I'll also measure the WOT AFR to confirm Adaptation there as well, but as an Anti-Knock measure, it's just as important to have Adapted there so I don't expect any surprises.

RB

PS: An IIce Air in the 30C position would be a good alternative.
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:54 PM   #89
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In the prior post I showed that the Motronic had Adapted Open Loop fueling, without a BoosterPlug or any other modifications, to the 13.5:1 AFR that the LC-1 Wideband O2 replacement is set to.

Because the move from 14.7 plus the leanness of E10 requires the Motronic to add 14% to the stock fuel tables to reach 13.5, and because adaptation is deliberately a slow process, it took several rides over several hours for the Motronic to dial itself in.

Next I wanted to see how quickly it would Adapt if I shifted the IAT sensor by 30C, an 11% increase in fueling, such that the Motronic only had to move the last 3% (14% - 11%).

I wired the BoosterPlug (an iice air in the -30C position would have worked nicely but the bp was already on) and the stock IAT in series. I then checked with the GS-911, the series pair did shift them temperature -30C. Next the Motronic was reset and I went out for a test ride. (LC-1 still set to 13.5.)

The result was that the bike needed little adaptation to get Open and Closed Loop fueling in sync. This produced the smoothest engine performance in all the testing I've done, and kept the point at which I've got strong roll-on throttle at about 2600 rpm.

My next test will be to remove the BoosterPlug, run with only the stock IAT and boost the fuel pressure to 50-55 psi using an external fuel pressure regulator from Aeromotive, installed in the return line to the tank. I will select and measure a pressure that boosts the fuelIng by about 12% and test ride to confirm similar results to the 30C temperature shift.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:13 AM   #90
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On Saturday I got around to boosting the fuel pressure to match my Wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. I used an Aeromotive 13301 (picture below) and increased the fuel pressure from 43.5 psi (3 bar) stock to about 52 psi--install photos later. Although a BoosterPlug configured for -30C or just letting the Motronic "adapt" work, I wanted to input the actual air temperature and adaptation is a slow process.

Bottom line: My R1150RT is running its strongest and smoothest yet. The pull from about 2,000 RPM on up in 4th gear is strong. Fifth and Sixth gears are similar but a bit higher on the RPM. The bike is now stock except for the Wideband O2 and higher fuel pressure, and the Motronic has a direct connection to all sensors.

Here's why I have decided to boost the fuel pressure. BMW has done a good job designing the basic fuel map for the 1150 and I don't want to lose their design knowledge--they have a good map of RPM vs TPS (how much air is going into the engine), they just plugged in lean fuel values. Look at the fuel map for a Ducati that I linked from Brad the Bike boy's site. This is not the same map as an R1150RT but it can illustrate some points.

You can see that it has 16 RPM columns across the bottom and 16 throttle angles up the side. This table holds 256 values that specify how long, in thousandths of a second, to turn on the injectors for certain RPM and throttle positions--based on their detailed knowledge of how much air the engine draws at each point. These values are only valid for gasoline without ethanol, and for one air temperature, one barometric pressure and for 43.5 psi fuel pressure. The R1150 has sensors for actual air temperature, barometric pressure and battery voltage. Then it uses the O2 sensor in Closed Loop to determine the actual fuel pulse needed to correct for ageing and component tolerance and E10 fuel. It compares the actual pulse calculated by Closed Loop to the fuel table and comes up with a correction factor. BMW calls these correction factors: Adaptation values. From all the reading I've done there is probably no more than a 4 X 4 table of Adaptation values, maybe fewer. And these values change slowly. And while you're waiting for the slow change your bike doesn't run it's best.

The numbers in the table have been designed for a Closed Loop mixture of 14.7:1. When I fill up with E10 fuel, it would be better if every number in the table were 4% larger since ethanol is a leaner fuel than gasoline. Since I've moved the Closed Loop to 13.8, that means the numbers should all be 6% higher. So 6% for my AFR change and 4% for ethanol means I would like every number in the table to be 10% larger.

It's not really possible for us to go in and change the numbers in the table to make them 10% bigger. But you can boost fuel pressure by about 20%, and the injectors then squirt 10% more fuel using the stock map numbers. This means the fuel table now matches my wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. And that means the Motronic doesn't have to work hard to Adapt the two to match.

The fuel pressure regulator has done away with the need for a BoosterPlug to richen the Fuel Map (The BP works by lowering the temperature the Motronic sees) and now I'm running without one.

As an example of Adaptation, I'll add some tables in the next post.

I've only had one day of running but the combination of wideband O2 and add-on fuel pressure regulator looks like a winner.






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