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Old 12-19-2011, 10:17 AM   #16
high dangler OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
are you talking about on road or off?

on paved roads, other than going over bumps, i don't see much point in it...except for stretching or just having fun.

off road, it decouples your weight from the bike...so you can let the bike jump around under you as it finds it's way through ruts, over rocks, slide around in mud, etc. and still maintain your balance/keep the bike upright.

if you are seated over the rough stuff, and your body goes with the bike instead of acting to counterbalance it, you won't be able to stay upright as long or while moving as fast.

standing also makes it easier to move your weight back and forth as conditions dictate. it also makes it easier to turn the bike by weighting the footpegs instead of having to use the handle bars as much. (before anyone even starts, yes, that does work on dirt bikes.)
i guess im talking street since i dont see much if any any dirt .
Ive heard it said that it lowers center of gravity making bike more manuverable on say..a cone course . I know from roadracing that fastest way around a curve is to have body low and inside . Kind of contradicts .
Im trying to learn what the advantges are .I see guys that have very good control while standing in low speed (under 30mph )situations
So far im puzzeled how they accomplish this. Although i'm old Im going to master this with practice , its just how i am with anything motorcycle.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:41 AM   #17
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Standing on the street is only good for a stretch or better visibility of debris while weaving through an accident scene. Oh and 4th gear wheelies at speed.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:46 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high dangler View Post
Ive heard it said that it lowers center of gravity
In this case, you heard wrong.

Let the threadcrap begin.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:49 AM   #19
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I find figure 8's and full locked turns easier in standing position. Increase your forward visibility in some circumstances + all of the above - stretch legs, get balls back into place so you are not sitting on them etc.

Also if you know you are going to eat sh-t in the dirt it is easier to just step off the bike and watch it slide away, rather than getting pinned under it. + all the things on balance, weighting the pegs etc. that the above mentioned that are relevant in dirt.

Do an advanced dirt riding course if you want to learn.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:55 AM   #20
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Stand up for bumps.

Thus:

On smooth roads, stand up never.
On bumpy roads, stand up occasionally.
On dirt, stand up (almost) always.

End of thread.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:44 AM   #21
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RawHyde stand-up training

If you take the RawHyde Adventures "Intro to Adventure" off-road riding class (I did in September), one of the first things they teach you is how to adjust your bike to accomodate riding while standing on the pegs. This involves raising and rotating the bars to keep your hands in the right position on the controls. I can confirm their other recommendation to buy new pegs (wider) to make your feet more comfortable (my feet hurt after 4 days).

The advantages of standing when riding offroad become obvious when you do it. The bike can pivot as needed to accomodate the trail without your behind following the seat. Your legs provide another layer of compliance to minimize the shocks your body feels.

Here is the controversial bit: it lowers the center of gravity of the bike. This has been flogged on this site before with many calling "bullshit": how can my weight move up and the bike CG move down?

As explained to me by the RawHyde guys - it requires you to separate the physics of the bike from the combined bike/rider system. Sitting on the seat, your weight is born at the "top" of the bike. Standing on the pegs with little pressure on the bars and flexible legs, your weight becomes two point loads at the bottom of the bike. From the bike's perspective, it is carrying weight down low and the effective CG goes down.

With a good rider standing on the pegs with the cylinders down low, the 1200GS becomes a hill climbing monster. My RawHyde week gave me a sense of the capability of this bike, provided my skills progressed to a fraction of those of our instructors.


While riding on-road, standing gives my ass a rest and increases my riding time between stops.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smallberries View Post
Standing on the pegs with little pressure on the bars and flexible legs, your weight becomes two point loads at the bottom of the bike. From the bike's perspective, it is carrying weight down low and the effective CG goes down.
Following that logic, the bike's CG must be very low because it's contact patches (tires) are at ground level!

People who make the "weight on the pegs" argument don't understand what a Center of Gravity really is.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high dangler View Post
Ive heard it said that it lowers center of gravity making bike more manuverable on say..a cone course.
this is a common myth. standing raises the COG of the bike/rider system, it does not lower it. (where you contact the bike has absolutey nothing to do with where the COG is.)

the effect people notice that they *think* is lowering of COG is just the decoupling their mass from the bike's mass. this makes them feel more stable because they don't get thrown around with the bike (and, in fact, you are "more stable" in so far as you can keep the bike upright more easily, but that is actually because you can allow the bike to jump around more under you--i.e., you can let the bike be less stable, but counter that instability with your body weight).

it can help in a cone course (at least with a lighter bike) because it allows you to flick the bike around quicker (in no small part just by weighting the pegs differently)...because you can just move the bike under you instead of having to move your mass with the bike, and because you can correct some things by moving your mass to counter the mass of the bike instead of having to move the mass of the bike at all. for me, at least, standing (or even sitting, but not leaning my body with the bike) enables me to react more quickly to changing conditions. my body is still balanced relative to the earth, and, thus, in a position to more quickly maneuver the bike or to move my body to counter what the bike is doing.

Quote:
I know from roadracing that fastest way around a curve is to have body low and inside . Kind of contradicts .
they are just two completely different situations. in the road racing case, you are trying to minimize the lean of the bike so as to maximize the size of the contact patch and, thus, maximize traction...allowing you to take the corner at the fastest possible speed. you are basically in the same position for the entire corner and have basically the same amount of available traction through the entire corner (or, if it does change, it is because of a relatively gradual change in the radius of the corner).

in a cone course, you are constantly having to change the position and lean angle of the bike. the object is not to maximize traction through a more-or-less static line, it is to maximize quickly reacting to a constantly changing line. by keeping your body neutral, you have only to move the mass of the bike under you rather than having to move the bike plus your body as a single mass.

in dirt, you need to be able to react quickly to constantly changing tractions conditions, bumps, the bike sliding around, etc. etc. you need to be able to move yourself and the bike around very quickly (and independently of each other). it is hard to do that while hanging off or even while just being "glued" to the bike...rather, you need to be very "neutral" and balanced (and have your body mass be independent of the bike mass) so you can move your body to counter what the bike is doing and/or to instantly flick the bike from leaning one way to leaning the other way rather than having to realign your body first.

Quote:
Im trying to learn what the advantges are .I see guys that have very good control while standing in low speed (under 30mph )situations
So far im puzzeled how they accomplish this.
by keeping their body constantly "neutral" and balanced relative to the earth. trials riders, in particular, are very, very good at this. visit some trials riding forums and read what they have to say. there is a user on thumpertalk.com named 2ply who has written pretty extensively on it and does a great job of explaining it (much better than i can). look up some of his posts in the "off raod riding technique" subforum:

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...w=1024&bih=575

(pay particular attention to an exercise called "walking the pegs" and how 2ply talks about keeping his feet a little bit out away from the bike...so the ends of the footpegs are in the middle of his feet...so he can lean the bike just by weighting one peg or the other while not actually changing the position of his upper body at all. i'm not sure what kind of bike you have...walking the pegs works better on lighter, taller bikes like dirt bikes, but it is a great exercise to start to get a feel for riding by letting the bike move under you instead of by leaning your body with the bike. give it a try in a parking lot at very slow speeds. just stand up with the middle of your feet on the ends of the pegs and then start weighting and unweighting each peg...just as though you were walking.)

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Old 12-19-2011, 12:02 PM   #24
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If you're going slow enough, and you hang off the bike... You'll fall off.

If you're going slow enough you can stand up on the bike, you can "float" and transition the bike faster while under you than you can if you were just sitting on the seat.

If you're going fast enough, and you stand up to turn the bike... You'll fall off.

If you're going fast enough, you need to "hang off the bike" in order to create the lowest possible COG and lessen the lean angle so that the contact patch or lean angle is not exceeded and you run out of traction, mid-Apex.


Prolly not right in ALL aspects... But puts it in "slow or fast?" context to me...
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:53 PM   #25
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[QUOTE=LittleRedToyota;17548847]this is a common myth. standing raises the COG of the bike/rider system, it does not lower it. (where you contact the bike has absolutey nothing to do with where the COG is.)[QUOTE]

^^^ THIS!!! ^^^

The guy knows that the Laws of Physics are immutable! Standing on the pegs makes slow speed balancing easier because the mass of your body can move independently from the mass of the bike, using either to find and hold a balance point, much as a tightrope walker uses a long pole to counterbalance his body mass. An experienced cyclist uses the same principle to do a track stand at a traffic light.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
^^^ THIS!!! ^^^

The guy knows that the Laws of Physics are immutable! Standing on the pegs makes slow speed balancing easier because the mass of your body can move independently from the mass of the bike, using either to find and hold a balance point, much as a tightrope walker uses a long pole to counterbalance his body mass. An experienced cyclist uses the same principle to do a track stand at a traffic light.
I could see that if a rider rode fixed and ridged, hard connected with locked joints to the bike... But this is not likely (in this scenario) due to the low speed...

**could**

If a rider is neutral... His weight would be shifting and hardly noticeable... Wait, what?
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:15 PM   #27
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What am I missing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Following that logic, the bike's CG must be very low because it's contact patches (tires) are at ground level!

People who make the "weight on the pegs" argument don't understand what a Center of Gravity really is.
Which method would you recommend when climbing a hill?


Standing on the pegs makes you less likely to fall over backwards, as would lowering the center of gravity of the bike. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
I could see that if a rider rode fixed and ridged, hard connected with locked joints to the bike...
if you did this, you would be raising the COG without gaining the benefit of decoupling your body's mass from the bike's mass. thus, you would be much less stable than sitting.

contemplating what would happen if you stood with rigid legs and arms actually demonstrates that standing does *not* lower the COG, and that the added stability of standing does, in fact, come from the mass decoupling.

Quote:
If a rider is neutral... His weight would be shifting and hardly noticeable... Wait, what?
his weight is very noticeable to the bike. if your body control is good enough (and the bike is light enough), you can lean the bike over quite far while standing still or barely moving and the bike will not fall over because you are counterbalancing the bike's mass with your body mass. without your body mass countering the bike's mass, the bike would fall over. (if you were seated or standing with rigid legs, thus keeping your body "in line" with the bike, it would fall over even faster.)
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:20 PM   #29
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When mass goes higher so does the COG and no "effective" bullshit explination can change what is. Standing RAISES the COG.

On pavement I stand while riding on trips to stretch my legs and air out my ball bag. My bike is set up to be ridden while standing for better control off pavement.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smallberries View Post
Which method would you recommend when climbing a hill?
As has been explained, where the rider's weight is on the bike is not directly relative to the center of gravity.
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