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Old 12-25-2011, 12:57 AM   #91
Ceri JC
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I stand up for a wide variety of reasons:

On pavement:
To increase my visibility to other traffic.
To cause "inattentive" (as opposed to "aggressive") tailgaters to drop back and make more space behind you.*
To allow me to see over other traffic (often to enable an overtaken where it would otherwise be unsafe to do so).
To stretch my legs/get rid of cramps.
To pre-empt dealing with the bike slithering about due to surface contaminants I've spotted.
To allow me to travel over speedbumps/traffic calming measures at the speed limit, without putting undue strain on the bike's suspension.

On dirt, I'm usually already stood up as a matter of course, unless I'm tired or injured.

*Sounds weird, but it works with the majority of tailgaters who simply get to close to you through a lack of concentration, as opposed to those who intentionally "bite your arse" to try and intimidate you to get you to move out of their way.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:32 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
I stand up for a wide variety of reasons:

On pavement:
To increase my visibility to other traffic.
To cause "inattentive" (as opposed to "aggressive") tailgaters to drop back and make more space behind you.*
To allow me to see over other traffic (often to enable an overtaken where it would otherwise be unsafe to do so).
To stretch my legs/get rid of cramps.
To pre-empt dealing with the bike slithering about due to surface contaminants I've spotted.
To allow me to travel over speedbumps/traffic calming measures at the speed limit, without putting undue strain on the bike's suspension.

On dirt, I'm usually already stood up as a matter of course, unless I'm tired or injured.

*Sounds weird, but it works with the majority of tailgaters who simply get to close to you through a lack of concentration, as opposed to those who intentionally "bite your arse" to try and intimidate you to get you to move out of their way.
To relieve ass itching.

To sharply turn at really low speeds.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:25 PM   #93
Nail24
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I stand up when I don't feel like sitting down. I call it a butt fluff.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #94
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"That's my style of riding."
- Cyril Despres at 0:31.

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Old 01-15-2012, 06:28 AM   #95
markk53
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Honestly, if you watch a variety of off road type racing, you get the idea of when and where you need to stand up on a bike. Dakar with the "lead sleds" has the riders standing a lot in the rough and when picking through stuff, then sitting when paddling in the dunes or other situations as well as when the path/trail/road/wilderness allows it for some rest on the legs. Motocrossers have a plethora of situations as well as rider preferences, ranging from the seat bounce jumps to railing a berm to working the whoops. The enduro riders actually sit a lot more than one might think. I remember one of the world champ trials riders who went into European enduro riding saying he needed to "learn to sit more often". Maybe it was to paddle or dab when needed or maybe it was to rest his legs more, I don't remember.

It's all subject to the rider and what works for them as they gain experience. I used to stand a lot more (probably due to that generous 4" of travel and those fine Suzuki TM125 shocks) than my friend (on his Penton 175 with real shocks, but still that generous 4" travel). I also learned off roading on a trials bike too.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:33 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nail24 View Post
I stand up when I don't feel like sitting down. I call it a butt fluff.
Yeah, that happens when playing around the dirt/gravel roads we ride. My butt gets really sore from the narrow KLX seat late in the day.

Also when I have to fart, but I'm sure that has been covered here - it always is whenever there's a "stand up" thread.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:37 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
in the context of this discussion, it is actually very simple.

if two masses are locked together (the bike and the rider), and one mass (the bike) moves, the other (the rider) has to go with it...making it impossible for the 2nd mass (the rider) to counter the first mass's (the bike's) movement and maintain the balance of the overall system.

if the two masses are decoupled, and one mass (the bike) moves, the other (the rider) can move in the opposite direction to maintain the balance of the overall system.

that's why standing makes the whole system "more stable"...it decouples (to a much greater extent than sitting on the seat) the rider's mass from the bike's mass and allows the rider to counter the bike's movements to maintain the balance of the bike/rider system. that's really all there is to it.

That's a good explanation and I like the fact that you do note at the end, that the rider still has the ability to move about independent of the bike when sitting too. It all depends on circumstances as to which a rider will do, along with personal experience and preference.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:50 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhack View Post
Granted, there are also aerodynamic issues that come into play, but if standing on the pegs lowered your center of gravity, this guy would be standing - and not hanging off the side of the bike, getting as low as he can.
Not intending to start a whole new train of thought, but you seem to miss the point when it comes to off road riding. Roadracing is a whole nother world and unrelated for the most part. Off road, standing lowers the point of force of the rider's weight from the seat to the pegs, making it easier to maneuver the machine, since the body can work independent of the motorcycle itself and the machine supports the load at the footpegs instead of the seat. In addition there is the added benefit of body positioning in all directions, similar to that of the road racer hanging off. Any movement will relocate the CG of the total mass, but when standing, the CG of the sum of motorcycle and the force it carries at the pegs, working independent of the body that creates the force,.will be lower than the same situation with the sum of the motorcycle and the force it would carry at the seat.

If you want proof, simply take any bike you ride, try leaning it back and forth while riding seated (not talking turning talking leaning), then stand up and do the same thing. It is far easier to lean the bike back and forth while standing than sitting, yet standing actually will raise the total CG of the two masses IF they were locked togeter.. The thing is tossing the bike back and forth while seated is harder because the load on the bike is located on the seat, which will be up to a foot or more than when located at the pegs. Now if you sat rigid without body movement and stood rigid without body movement and performed the same actions, it would be easier to do when seated. It is the rider's load location on the bike and the "detaching" of the rider's actual body position contribution to the fixed CG of the bike that makes the difference. It's like taking 150 lb off the seat and placing it on the pegs, not to mention that the force can be varied from one peg to the other, kind of like how that roadracer is leaning (one common feature). It's going to be a whole lot easier to balance and move with the 150 lb at the pegs.

Of course in roadracing and most road riding none of this matters for the most part because standing just won't work for them due to the nature of the riding. But off road and on loose surfaces it makes a huge difference. If you want to see the extremes simply call up some youtube videos of trials riding and see how quickly they can toss a bike around while standing on the pegs that are about 14" off the ground. No way they could do that sitting on a seat 35" off the ground.

It is the relative nature of how the two loads work together, not some fixed position sum of the loads. I hope it makes sense without a bunch of physics formuals and diagrams, which I don't actually remember or have.
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markk53 screwed with this post 01-15-2012 at 07:01 AM
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:17 AM   #99
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smallberries View Post
If two depleted uranium slugs equal to half your mass were welded to each peg - the COG of the now-modified bike would go be closer to the ground. If these two slugs were bolted to the seat, the cog of this system would go up. This is true - but also irrelevant. The rider is not attached to the bike in any way that would affect its cog. You are a wiggly blob, it is a rigid body. There is no relevance to a center of gravity of the combination of the bike and rider - because they aren't combined in this fashion.

The rider exerts forces on the bike - we do not change its COG. We worry about the bike falling over, not any "bike/rider system". We must learn to "use the Force" to get the most out of our bikes.

Think it through - it has taken me a while to grasp this and I have a master's degree in mechanical engineering (my professors will shake their heads in shame as they read my posts!) I'm far from an expert on motorcycle dynamics, but I think I'm getting a handle of the COG bit.

You may have a master's degree in ME, but how is it you figure placing all the force at the seat doesn't create a higher CG of the forces ONLY ON THE MOTORCYCLE than having the downward force (rider weight) located at the pegs? The rider may be that "wiggly blob", but based on what I learned in physics, the motorcycle is reacting to forces on it and this is pertaining to the down forces. when the downward force is at the seat the CG is higher, when downward force is at the pegs the CG is lower. Totally independent of anything else. This is why standing makes it so easy to toss a bike back and forth when off roading. It is like raising or lowering the mass of the engine, the fuel tank or any other force on the bike. That simple. From there, rider body position does multiple things to multiple forces,

One more thought on roadracing. Where do you think the rider is placing the force of their body, besides the normal shift to the front, when braking? I can tell you, they're weighting the pegs. Body movement is minimal at best. Not standing, but I guarantee you they are weighting the pegs. To do a stoppie the trick is to UNweight the pegs.

One last thought. If you watch an MX rider running through the whoops on a lap, you will see the bike dancing back and forth at the pegs and staying in control for the most part. The rider's weight is supported and pivots at the pegs, now think what would happen in the same situation if the rider located that weight and pivoted on their butt on the seat. I guarantee you they would either flip going up the first whoop or they'd get tossed off the front shortly due to the higher motorcycle/load support CG along with the rider's inability to alter the total CG location with body movement.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:39 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
when standing, the CG of the sum of motorcycle and the force it carries at the pegs, working independent of the body that creates the force,.will be lower than the same situation with the sum of the motorcycle and the force it would carry at the seat.
Mark,

I think this is where most folks go off track. CG has nothing whatsoever to do with force carried at the pegs. CG has nothing whatsoever to do with force, period. CG is determined by mass (which is why it's also known as the Center of Mass.)
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:42 AM   #101
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Standing up works in rocks/ ruts/roots/ whoops/ etc.. I don't really give a fuck about the how & why. On the street, it's merely a way to give my ass a rest from KTM's "weapon of ass destruction" that they call a "seat". But in the woods up here in NNJ, my ass hardly ever touch's the seat of my 525.

Chris
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:13 AM   #102
Lion BR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
You may have a master's degree in ME, but how is it you figure placing all the force at the seat doesn't create a higher CG of the forces ONLY ON THE MOTORCYCLE than having the downward force (rider weight) located at the pegs? The rider may be that "wiggly blob", but based on what I learned in physics, the motorcycle is reacting to forces on it and this is pertaining to the down forces. when the downward force is at the seat the CG is higher, when downward force is at the pegs the CG is lower. Totally independent of anything else. This is why standing makes it so easy to toss a bike back and forth when off roading. It is like raising or lowering the mass of the engine, the fuel tank or any other force on the bike. That simple. From there, rider body position does multiple things to multiple forces,

One more thought on roadracing. Where do you think the rider is placing the force of their body, besides the normal shift to the front, when braking? I can tell you, they're weighting the pegs. Body movement is minimal at best. Not standing, but I guarantee you they are weighting the pegs. To do a stoppie the trick is to UNweight the pegs.

One last thought. If you watch an MX rider running through the whoops on a lap, you will see the bike dancing back and forth at the pegs and staying in control for the most part. The rider's weight is supported and pivots at the pegs, now think what would happen in the same situation if the rider located that weight and pivoted on their butt on the seat. I guarantee you they would either flip going up the first whoop or they'd get tossed off the front shortly due to the higher motorcycle/load support CG along with the rider's inability to alter the total CG location with body movement.
I never quite understood the "weighting the pegs" concept. Leverage to maneuver the bike is really small right there. I can understand using the pegs as one of the anchoring points for exercising force, for example, at the seat/tank and the handlebars where leverage is greater. I NEVER weigh the pegs. It is a waste of energy on an ineffective practice in my opinion.

Lower center of gravity on a car I can understand. On a motorcycle, it is a different ball of wax.

Center of mass helps. And moving the human mass around, helps. Not keeping it at the center or lower position, bust as a leverage to move the bike as a rider moves his/her body to the front, back, or either side, depending on what is needed to keep the bike from falling or to make a corner faster. That is about moving, influencing the mass AWAY from its middle position. Exactly the opposite of keeping it low and centered. I can understand keeping it low and centered on a straight road.

And some people can be VERY flexible, relaxed, and "disconnected" from the bike while sitting, so they can use their mass to move the combined rider/bike mass AWAY from the center to do what is needed. The rider is using their body mass to "bend" the bike. Again, you don't need to stand up to make this happen. If a rider can do that, they don't need to stand up to ride well on dirt.

Some riders are so good that they minimally move around to keep their bikes going on a stable position. Small subtle movements, understanding traction, paying attention to the road ahead or using the bike's inertia/momentum and motor. Like using the throttle to rear-wheel steer (not much rear wheel spin is needed if at all, you would be surprised, to keep the chassis stable and settled through a gravel curve) and keeping the front wheel LIGHT. Yes, you don't need to weight it down if the bike is settled well for a curve, you brake early and get on the throttle BEFORE the apex.

It is a lot more difficult to keep the front light when standing up, by the way, which makes it harder for sand, deep gravel, etc. because you lose traction on the rear compounded that while this is happening the front digs under the increased weight!

We hear so much here from fake experts that ride like a pile of their own , that I tend to think my here described is also .


In other words, what I'm saying here is not the LAW. It is just how I ride and it is proof that it is possible to ride on dirt, and ride well, while NOT standing up (except on very rough terrain and whoops, and whenever I want to).

There is not a ONE way of riding on dirt. There is YOUR way and then there are other people's ways. As long as people are safe and having fun, that is what matters.

ATTENTION: I'm not describing here a way to ride single track fast. I'm talking about riding on roads with gravel, sand or dirt. And I'm not talking about DAKAR racing, just riding and having fun with the bike.
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:50 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER View Post
Standing up works in rocks/ ruts/roots/ whoops/ etc.. I don't really give a fuck about the how & why. On the street, it's merely a way to give my ass a rest from KTM's "weapon of ass destruction" that they call a "seat". But in the woods up here in NNJ, my ass hardly ever touch's the seat of my 525.

Chris

I'm with Chris, although I always question my sanity when I look into these sorts of threads, my simple advice is "sit down when you can, stand up when you have to."
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Old 01-15-2012, 11:09 AM   #104
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On the road, It is fun riding fast corners standing up. I've practiced it a lot lately. Every time I stand, while on the street, I practice quick stops at stopsigns when I get to them. Working the gears takes a lot of practice. Standing, I can slalom very tight fast esses at 30 mph or so. Not at all possible seated, no way in hell impossible. A circumstance where I would need to turn left right left so quickly? Idk. So why do I stand? Because I put bar risers on my bike.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:03 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Crisis management View Post
I'm with Chris, although I always question my sanity when I look into these sorts of threads, my simple advice is "sit down when you can, stand up when you have to."
Indeed. I enjoy better riding while sitting, and I realize a lot can be done that way. This is a video climbing the Lippincott Rd in the Death Valley. 100% sitting. Relaxed and no drama. You can see, however, how the bike and my upper body are moving almost if they were independent of each other. Could this be ridden faster? YES. Could someone standing up ride this faster? YES. Is it necessary to stand up? NO. As long as I'm having fun, that's what matters. But it is great to hear my riding friend at the end of the video describing his state of mind about this stretch of road.




Now this is a video where I follow Chris's and Crisis Management's ideas. Yes, just because I don't like to stand up, doesn't mean that sometimes standing up is not the best solution. I do stand up when I need to. This video is also in the Death Valley. This is the Eureka Dunes rd going towards Steel Pass. Very nice place to go riding, BTW.



There is not a right or wrong about this.
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