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Old 01-15-2012, 12:06 PM   #106
Lion BR
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Originally Posted by Idle View Post
On the road, It is fun riding fast corners standing up. I've practiced it a lot lately. Every time I stand, while on the street, I practice quick stops at stopsigns when I get to them. Working the gears takes a lot of practice. Standing, I can slalom very tight fast esses at 30 mph or so. Not at all possible seated, no way in hell impossible. A circumstance where I would need to turn left right left so quickly? Idk. So why do I stand? Because I put bar risers on my bike.
I can see slalom being done faster while standing.
Watch out about riding standing on public roads. At least here in Oregon if you are caught that is a citation.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:19 PM   #107
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If you want feel the affect of weighting footpegs find a nice muddy trail with a sidehill section. Roll through it with the downhill peg weighted. Then switch weight to the the uphill peg. Then get up,pick the bike up and move on having learned empirically the significance of small adjustments in maximizing traction.

BTW standing or sitting matters little.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:36 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
If you want feel the affect of weighting footpegs find a nice muddy trail with a sidehill section. Roll through it with the downhill peg weighted. Then switch weight to the the uphill peg. Then get up,pick the bike up and move on having learned empirically the significance of small adjustments in maximizing traction.

BTW standing or sitting matters little.

Funny.
Now, is it weighting the right peg the only thing you are doing or is it the leaning the bike towards the right side that is [also] helping on this scenario? On my video on the Lippincott road (just a few posts before), there is one point where I'm riding on a sandy and graveled track on a hill side, steeply cambered down towards the cliff. I'm not weighing pegs there. But I'm keeping the bike slightly leaned towards the rock wall on the left and not the cliff on the right. The bike is leaned opposite to the camber direction, making its angle to the ground even steeper, but it never loses traction. And I did not fall on the cliff.

I want to add another comment here. If someone has a back problem, perhaps standing is the best way to go. Although when sitting and moving your upper body around, you are strengthening the mid body muscles, which will help keeping your back protected, if damage has already been made, standing up will help absorb shocks that will further destroy your back if you ride sitting down.

Standing up will help the bike's suspension as well. Although today's bikes are so much better than the trail bikes of the 70's.

Talking about this, today's bikes are taller (hence give better leverage points and higher CoG), have better suspension, have a longer distance seat to peg, and narrower seats. All of these help with riding on dirt while sitting, if that is your preference.

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Old 01-20-2012, 05:01 PM   #109
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I never quite understood the "weighting the pegs" concept. Leverage to maneuver the bike is really small right there. I can understand using the pegs as one of the anchoring points for exercising force, for example, at the seat/tank and the handlebars where leverage is greater. I NEVER weigh the pegs. It is a waste of energy on an ineffective practice in my opinion.

Lower center of gravity on a car I can understand. On a motorcycle, it is a different ball of wax.

Center of mass helps. And moving the human mass around, helps. Not keeping it at the center or lower position, bust as a leverage to move the bike as a rider moves his/her body to the front, back, or either side, depending on what is needed to keep the bike from falling or to make a corner faster. That is about moving, influencing the mass AWAY from its middle position. Exactly the opposite of keeping it low and centered. I can understand keeping it low and centered on a straight road.

And some people can be VERY flexible, relaxed, and "disconnected" from the bike while sitting, so they can use their mass to move the combined rider/bike mass AWAY from the center to do what is needed. The rider is using their body mass to "bend" the bike. Again, you don't need to stand up to make this happen. If a rider can do that, they don't need to stand up to ride well on dirt.

Some riders are so good that they minimally move around to keep their bikes going on a stable position. Small subtle movements, understanding traction, paying attention to the road ahead or using the bike's inertia/momentum and motor. Like using the throttle to rear-wheel steer (not much rear wheel spin is needed if at all, you would be surprised, to keep the chassis stable and settled through a gravel curve) and keeping the front wheel LIGHT. Yes, you don't need to weight it down if the bike is settled well for a curve, you brake early and get on the throttle BEFORE the apex.

It is a lot more difficult to keep the front light when standing up, by the way, which makes it harder for sand, deep gravel, etc. because you lose traction on the rear compounded that while this is happening the front digs under the increased weight!

We hear so much here from fake experts that ride like a pile of their own , that I tend to think my here described is also .


In other words, what I'm saying here is not the LAW. It is just how I ride and it is proof that it is possible to ride on dirt, and ride well, while NOT standing up (except on very rough terrain and whoops, and whenever I want to).

There is not a ONE way of riding on dirt. There is YOUR way and then there are other people's ways. As long as people are safe and having fun, that is what matters.

ATTENTION: I'm not describing here a way to ride single track fast. I'm talking about riding on roads with gravel, sand or dirt. And I'm not talking about DAKAR racing, just riding and having fun with the bike.

Weighting of the pegs, when you talk about shifting it from one side to the other really doesn't do a huge amount. Code demonstrated that with the No BS bike. After all, they're only about 12-18" apart, not much leverage there compared to a 30-34" set of handle bars. But what I'm talking about is WHERE the weight is relative to the motorcycle chassis. Not where the rider's Mass is, but where the chassis is actually receiving the weight. The seat is about 12-18" higher than the pegs. Going up hill the pegs are not only lower, but further forward than the seat.

There are a lot of riders who don't stand up much. Heck I saw shots of Kenny Zahrt (Bultaco rider) years ago doing most of his jumps on the seat. His style. I guarantee you though, that you can get more weight back further when in sand, by standing and shifting your but back off the seat. When trials riding I've been on the back fender with my butt going down steep drop offs. No way they could be done on the seat.

My comments are all about where the motorcycle chassis has the rider weight positioned, which affects how easily it will change directions. The closer the weight is to the center of the axis of roll of the chassis, the easier it will be to change direction of lean. If the weight is either too high or too low (the old Honda GP racer that had the gas tank under the bike had it too low) changing direction becomes more difficult.

The real sum and total though is for the rider to do what works for them. You see it every time you watch races, not all riders ride the same way. It is all what works for a given rider and a given motorcycle.

By the way, you are right, your "much more difficult to keep the front end light when standing" should be under one of those bulls. Just watch a rider hit a series of whoops, a water crossing, or have to go over a rock or log across a trail. I guarantee you 99% or more will be standing and using the throttle while shifting weight back. It's about where the weight is distributed on the bike chassis for how the chassis works, then about where the overall weight distribution is when it comes to unweighting the front end. In a bit of reading today for the kids on doing rockets, it was pointed out that the rocket will pivot around its center of mass. Weight on the pegs makes the bike chassis center of mass lower than if it was on the seat. The chassis will pivot near the pegs because that is near the center of mass for the weight on the chassis. The same would not be true if that weight was on the seat.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:40 PM   #110
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how much peg weighting works depends entirely on what type of bike you are riding. if you are riding a tall, lightweight dual sport (or dirt bike or trials bike), it has a very large effect.

keith code even says that in his no BS write-up, but many people seem to skip that paragraph or something--and, apparently, have never tried peg weighting on a tall, lightweight bike themselves.

there is even a specific exercise called "walking the pegs" to practice it.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:42 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
I can see slalom being done faster while standing.
Watch out about riding standing on public roads. At least here in Oregon if you are caught that is a citation.
Yes, because you have more leverage.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:34 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
how much peg weighting works depends entirely on what type of bike you are riding. if you are riding a tall, lightweight dual sport (or dirt bike or trials bike), it has a very large effect.

keith code even says that in his no BS write-up, but many people seem to skip that paragraph or something--and, apparently, have never tried peg weighting on a tall, lightweight bike themselves.

there is even a specific exercise called "walking the pegs" to practice it.
Not really...

Go ride your bike again... You will find when you weight the peg you also supply input to the real control - the handlebars. If you intentionally hold the handlebars steady and weight the peg, you'll find little change in direction. There just isn't much leverage there. In fact probably a good test would be to get up a bit of speed, let go of the bars and weight a foot - without body shift, just pressure on one foot to the peg. I think you'll find little change will happen. Some change will, but it is far outweighed by the additional steering input at the bars that automatically happens when a rider does weight a foot.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:42 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
I can see slalom being done faster while standing.
Watch out about riding standing on public roads. At least here in Oregon if you are caught that is a citation.
Maybe at extremely low speeds, but at higher speeds, like middle/higher road speeds, sitting down will be quicker. One has greater leverage on the bars while mostly seated. While doing the directional changes one is mostly shifting the bike underneath one's self. This is a maneuver I practice all the time and can speak quite well from experience. I can slalom down a road swerving between each of the dotted lines at 50-60 mph. It is almost a rowing motion with the bike using the bars for the most and quickest input. I do it for fun when I can on either the KLX or the Zephyr. It's a good exercise in control.

Now on a trail, I'd agree with the standing up. It applies the rider weight low on the bike at the pegs and the upper body can perform more drastic chassis shifts under the rider or vice versa, depending on what works or is needed. In trials riding it is the chassis under the rider most of the time, weaving and working the bike while the rider is maintaining a fairly smooth constant body position.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:23 AM   #114
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For those of us who really shouldn't even be riding the rough dirt/trails because of back and or neck surgery/issues, standing really helps you ride more or less pain free. That is if your knees and thighs can take it.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:43 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
In fact probably a good test would be to get up a bit of speed, let go of the bars and weight a foot - without body shift, just pressure on one foot to the peg. I think you'll find little change will happen. Some change will, but it is far outweighed by the additional steering input at the bars that automatically happens when a rider does weight a foot.
I've got my throttle set up so I can let go with both hands, and have tested this.

At high speeds without touching the handle bars, the only effective way to change the bike's direction is to put weight on one footpeg or another. Shifting my body weight to one side takes several seconds to create any change at all, but putting weight on a footpeg will change the bike's direction almost instantly. Not as quick as a countersteer, but good enough (once again, this is at highway speeds).

At low speeds (50kmh or so) putting weight on a footpeg turns the bike so fast I have to reach out and grab the handlebars to stabilise the bike and avoid a crash. I've got to be really careful to apply even weight to the footpegs when riding with no hands at low speeds.

In 1st gear singletrack riding? I think weighting the pegs would have a dramatic effect, but I haven't tested it.

But we're not just talking about putting weight on the footpegs. We're talking about using the footpegs and the handlebars together... When you're standing, you can easilly change the bikes angle by pushing *down* hard on the left footpeg while pulling *up* as hard as you can on the right handlebar. You can't push down on the footpeg much while sitting, and you can't pull up at all (since your arms are sticking out straight infront of you). This can be used *in addition* to counter steering, so you can countersteer as hard as you possibly can without breaking traction on the front wheel, while simultaneously pushing on the pegs/pulling the bars to change the bike's direction. This will change the bike's direction faster than just countersteering by itself, especially on gravel or mud where you might not have enough grip to countersteer effectively.

MotoGP racers aren't standing up on the pegs while cornering, because their bike sin't set up for it, and they're going over 200km/h and the aerodynamic issue effects are big. Totally different story.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:08 AM   #116
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well ive been practicing this "standing up" and Ive got mostly comfortable with it since starting this thread.
Ive rolled the bars up a bit and took the rubbers out of the pegs .That helps. Also Ive found that its best to keep legs a little bent . Im making some nice tight controlled turns. I do have this fear of going over the bars if I have to brake suddenly.
Guess its better to get down before any brakes are used.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:21 AM   #117
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Thanks for making my point about the bars being the main input. But remember, countersteering is steering the opposite direction, whether that is done using the bars, weighting pegs, or leaning, whether pushing, pulling, pressing, or lifting the bars if it causes steering against the direction being turned it is countersteering.

As for peg weighting, it's still minimal at best. It's just part of the sum of actions.

By the way, next time you brake really hard going into a corner (like a MotoGP racer, but at a far lesser level obviously) think about it... you'll find you're putting pressure both to your arms and your feet. You are bracing your arms and also your legs, reducing the load on the seat. One shifts weight to the bars, the other to the pegs.

The one is pretty much required to keep from sliding forward. Due to the handlebar to rider placement it also applys some of the rider weight to the front wheel. The other is transferring the fixed weight position of the rider on the bike from the seat to the pegs and also keeping the rider as far back as the seating will allow, reducing the likelihood of lifting the rear tire. One does not have to literally stand or even lift clear of the seat to do this. The point is under hard braking one braces with weight to the pegs at least in part whether standing or seated and it changes the distribution of forces on the cycle chassis. Location and vetors of forces can not be ignored and are extremely complex.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:30 AM   #118
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This thread just makes me laugh

And very thankful to have started riding very young and in the dirt.

Truly believe that riding dirt bikes is the best training for riding any motorcycle, and encourage any body who can do so to spend some time riding actual dirt bikes on single track in all kinds of conditions, sand, mud, water, creek beds, steeps, dry slick, wet slick, and the rare great traction......sorry KLRs are not dirt bikes

So much will be learned from riding a bike that is only marginally in contact with the earth.

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Old 01-23-2012, 05:42 AM   #119
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This thread just makes me laugh

And very thankful to have started riding very young and in the dirt.

Truly believe that riding dirt bikes is the best training for riding any motorcycle, and encourage any body who can do so to spend some time riding actual dirt bikes on single track in all kinds of conditions, sand, mud, water, creek beds, steeps, dry slick, wet slick, and the rare great traction......sorry KLRs are not dirt bikes

So much will be learned from riding a bike that is only marginally in contact with the earth.

I started on dirt as well. I also think it is great training for riding any motorcycle. But I'm not quite sure that all of it translates well into pavement riding. Dirt is predictable and forgiving, making recovery of eventual problems easier. Pavement, when it bites, it bites unexpectedly, faster, which can translate into more difficult recoveries and more dramatic results.
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:48 AM   #120
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