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Old 01-23-2012, 09:14 AM   #121
O.C.F.RIDER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
I started on dirt as well. I also think it is great training for riding any motorcycle. But I'm not quite sure that all of it translates well into pavement riding. Dirt is predictable and forgiving, making recovery of eventual problems easier. Pavement, when it bites, it bites unexpectedly, faster, which can translate into more difficult recoveries and more dramatic results.
Dirt is predictable and forgiving..............WHAT???? The only thing "predictable" in the dirt, is the UN-predictability of it. Dirt, sand, rocks, mud, roots, ruts, hard-pack, and the fact that no matter how many times you ride the same trail, it's ALWAYS changing. Pavement is about 1,000,000x more "predictable".
And, you can take a very good off-road rider and he/she will almost ALWAYS be a very good street rider. Take a very good street rider and throw him/her on a dirt bike (in the dirt) and they will almost 100% of the time look like they've never ridden a bike before.
Yes, the pavement DOES bite back harder, but the chances of crashing (for me anyway) are far, far less then in the dirt.
Shit, in the dirt I've probably crashed more times in one day sometimes, than I've crashed on the street in my whole life.

Chris
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:16 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
You will find when you weight the peg you also supply input to the real control - the handlebars. If you intentionally hold the handlebars steady and weight the peg, you'll find little change in direction.
i disagree (and, so, it seems, does kieth code...for whatever that's worth--i only bring it up because you did). i think when you think you are holding the handlebars steady, you are actually supplying steering input to counter the peg weighting so you keep going straight.

someone needs to build a tall, light dual sport version of the no-BS bike.

Quote:
without body shift, just pressure on one foot to the peg.


of course you shift your weight. that's the whole idea.

Quote:
Some change will, but it is far outweighed by the additional steering input at the bars that automatically happens when a rider does weight a foot.
even if you do not supply that additional steering input, you still turn a tall light bike by weighting the pegs. just make sure that you are not supplying steering input to counter the effect.

it's pretty much the same as steering a bicycle with no hands. my DRZ turns with no hands, too. it doesn't u-turn, but it certainly starts heading for the next lane if i lean (not even weighting the pegs) while sitting on it with no hands on the bars. it i'm going slowly enough, i have to stop doing it or grab the bars to counter the effect, or i will crash from turning too much.

it all depends on the bike you are riding (and how fast you are going).
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:17 AM   #123
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What I dont understand is what any of this has to do with Center of Gravity as defined by Joint Publication 1
"Centers of gravity are the characteristics, capabilities, or locations from which a military force derives its freedom of action, physical strength, or will to fight. At the strategic level, centers of gravity might include a military force, an alliance, a set of critical capabilities or functions, or national strategy itself"

Clearly none of you have clue as to what COG is.. morons
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:20 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.C.F.RIDER View Post
Dirt is predictable and forgiving..............WHAT???? The only thing "predictable" in the dirt, is the UN-predictability of it. Dirt, sand, rocks, mud, roots, ruts, hard-pack, and the fact that no matter how many times you ride the same trail, it's ALWAYS changing. Pavement is about 1,000,000x more "predictable".
And, you can take a very good off-road rider and he/she will almost ALWAYS be a very good street rider. Take a very good street rider and throw him/her on a dirt bike (in the dirt) and they will almost 100% of the time look like they've never ridden a bike before.
Yes, the pavement DOES bite back harder, but the chances of crashing (for me anyway) are far, far less then in the dirt.
Shit, in the dirt I've probably crashed more times in one day sometimes, than I've crashed on the street in my whole life.

Chris
In my opinion, you nailed it, when you said: "predictable" in the dirt, is the UN-predictability of it.. We ride on dirt KNOWING that the adherence might be low.

On pavement, we trust it is good. And when it is not, it can be too late, and we may not even know what happened.

On dirt, you said you crashed several times in one day. On pavement, one crash can be really serious.

Supermotard riders use skills that are equivalent to dirt riding. Except, that it is more difficult to do that on pavement. To slide the rear on pavement, for example, requires more finesse and skill than to do that on dirt. The risks for a high side on pavement are greater than on dirt, when sliding. At least that is my opinion on this.
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:40 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
i disagree (and, so, it seems, does kieth code...for whatever that's worth--i only bring it up because you did). i think when you think you are holding the handlebars steady, you are actually supplying steering input to counter the peg weighting so you keep going straight.

someone needs to build a tall, light dual sport version of the no-BS bike.



of course you shift your weight. that's the whole idea.



even if you do not supply that additional steering input, you still turn a tall light bike by weighting the pegs. just make sure that you are not supplying steering input to counter the effect.

it's pretty much the same as steering a bicycle with no hands. my DRZ turns with no hands, too. it doesn't u-turn, but it certainly starts heading for the next lane if i lean (not even weighting the pegs) while sitting on it with no hands on the bars. it i'm going slowly enough, i have to stop doing it or grab the bars to counter the effect, or i will crash from turning too much.

it all depends on the bike you are riding (and how fast you are going).

You miss the point, if you are holding the bars steady there is no input. That was what Code achieved with the No BS bike, if you held the fixed bars it had to be steady - they don't move.

You apparently do get the point, but want to disagree about the value of input at the pegs when it comes to weighting the pegs. It is minimal compared to bar input. I think a majority of "peg weighters" are missing the other input the do. They only realize what they want to realize.

At 5 mph on my Sherpat T the bars were far more important than peg weighting. Body shift or motorcycle chassis shift was far more important than peg weighting.

At 60 mph on my KLX bar and body shift (simultaneous) are far more important than peg weighting.

Peg weight influences a bit, but not as much as the people who are so big on it will believe. It's a minor ingredient in the mix. The peg serve more to allow upper body shift playing a part than the actual weight on the peg.

I've ridden for miles down I-77 without hands on the bars of my old MotoGuzzi. I would never construe that slow acting steering using upper body lean or peg weighting as much more than a slow change of direction. A strong fart in one direction could alter your course too, but you ain't gonna make it sound like a critical input. There are handicapped riders (Doug Henry included) riding who can NOT weight a peg. If you saw the video of Henry shooting down that track in the cage on his bike you'd see just how irrelevent the peg weighting is. He's doing it all with the bars and maybe upper body at this point from what I'm understanding..
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markk53 screwed with this post 01-25-2012 at 06:46 PM
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:42 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
What I dont understand is what any of this has to do with Center of Gravity as defined by Joint Publication 1

"Centers of gravity are the characteristics, capabilities, or locations from which a military force derives its freedom of action, physical strength, or will to fight. At the strategic level, centers of gravity might include a military force, an alliance, a set of critical capabilities or functions, or national strategy itself"

Clearly none of you have clue as to what COG is.. morons

Your input is more than appreciated. A true dyed (or should it actually be "died") in the wool ADVrider inmate!
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:29 PM   #127
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peg weighting

Imagine the effect if you were standing balanced on your stationary bike (not excercise stationary bike) not holding the bars then lifted one foot up without adjusting your balance. You would be getting a close up look at the oil stains on your garage floor before before you had had time to remember what ATGATT stood for.

How much effect it has when compared to bar input, balance changes etc etc is way more complicated than COG discussions but I do agree that it is only a minor factor when traveling at speed on the road. Who needs massive sudden input through pegs, bars or weight when setting up for corner at 100kmh?

Having ridden some trials the benifits of peg weighting sure becomes blatanly obvious when traversing a slippery incline.
leaning the bike into the hill and standing on the outside peg massively increases your traction.
If you lean the bike at 45% then the seat is 12inches or more uphill from the tyre contact patch and if you bum is on the seat then then you bum is uphill from the tyres and simple physics (someone who knows simple physics please jump in here..vector forces bla bla) says you add to the weight pushing downhill.
When standing you can actually get your weight further downhill from the contact patch which drastically improves your traction equation.
Any body who has done some snow skiing knows that if you lean back into the hill while trying to turn or stop your edges slide and that you have to get your weight out over your edge on the downhill ski to be effective.

When riding at speed on dirt roads etc how much traction do you need. Do you need to lean the bike at 45% and hang off one bar or will a simple shuffle in your seat do the trick, I'll take the seat when I can.
When you get to a corner that has had the gravel pushed up into rows 8 inches and is like riding in sand try standing on your outside peg and exagerating your body position outside the bike as well.

In single track when you need to change position from side to side constantly, standing up can be a lot easier than moving your arse scross the bike 100 times.
Please note that I have not said standing lowers centre of gravity as in the case of a fixed rider I believe ir raises the COG.

I do wonder what happens to those equations in instances where the bike if coming up and you are stationary because your legs are absorbing the rise of the bike, at that point my weight on the bike is almost zero?
Is the COG of gravity any where near as significant in comparsion to tipping point and traction calculations when you factoring the shifting weight of the rider?
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by IheartmyNx View Post
This is a good one. While I don't have lots of experience with it, the guys on the SMJ say the exact same thing.

It temporarily blinds and stuns an otherwise thoughtless and clueless species of; the drone cage driver, into thinking "WTF is that? He's going to kill somebody! I better slow down and get off his ass... For if and when he crashes, he might sue me!?"
I like that. I quite often point to non-existent deer off in the woods. Around here it gets them off my ass. Personally I just like the view standing up. Developed sort of a ritual off standing up for the last stretch up the mountain to home. What really freaks 'em out is standing and waving.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:53 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wop View Post
Imagine the effect if you were standing balanced on your stationary bike (not excercise stationary bike) not holding the bars then lifted one foot up without adjusting your balance. You would be getting a close up look at the oil stains on your garage floor before before you had had time to remember what ATGATT stood for.

How much effect it has when compared to bar input, balance changes etc etc is way more complicated than COG discussions but I do agree that it is only a minor factor when traveling at speed on the road. Who needs massive sudden input through pegs, bars or weight when setting up for corner at 100kmh?

Having ridden some trials the benifits of peg weighting sure becomes blatanly obvious when traversing a slippery incline.
leaning the bike into the hill and standing on the outside peg massively increases your traction.
If you lean the bike at 45% then the seat is 12inches or more uphill from the tyre contact patch and if you bum is on the seat then then you bum is uphill from the tyres and simple physics (someone who knows simple physics please jump in here..vector forces bla bla) says you add to the weight pushing downhill.
When standing you can actually get your weight further downhill from the contact patch which drastically improves your traction equation.
Any body who has done some snow skiing knows that if you lean back into the hill while trying to turn or stop your edges slide and that you have to get your weight out over your edge on the downhill ski to be effective.

When riding at speed on dirt roads etc how much traction do you need. Do you need to lean the bike at 45% and hang off one bar or will a simple shuffle in your seat do the trick, I'll take the seat when I can.
When you get to a corner that has had the gravel pushed up into rows 8 inches and is like riding in sand try standing on your outside peg and exagerating your body position outside the bike as well.

In single track when you need to change position from side to side constantly, standing up can be a lot easier than moving your arse scross the bike 100 times.
Please note that I have not said standing lowers centre of gravity as in the case of a fixed rider I believe ir raises the COG.

I do wonder what happens to those equations in instances where the bike if coming up and you are stationary because your legs are absorbing the rise of the bike, at that point my weight on the bike is almost zero?
Is the COG of gravity any where near as significant in comparsion to tipping point and traction calculations when you factoring the shifting weight of the rider?
My bike must be magic. I never weigh the pegs. Too much waste of energy in my very humble opinion.

Now, I never rode a trials bike, and they don't have a seat. In those cases, if i rode one of "them" bikes I would HAVE to be standing, hence I would have to contribute to weighing the pegs.

The lean of a bike does not depend on weighing the pegs. And when I ride of off-camber, I do lean the bike towards the top of the hill, not the lowest part of the camber. The only thing that touches the ground when I'm riding are the bike wheels. Not the pegs.

Now, IMPORTANT: I'm not saying you should not weigh the pegs. Just that it is possible to ride bikes that have seats WITHOUT weighing the pegs.

And the DMV is not going to confiscate my motorcycle endorsement because I do not stand up when riding off road. I hope.

Here is a video that proves you don't need to weigh the pegs to have fun. Check the off camber with the "abyss" starting on minute 6:59



Of course, your mileage may vary and you could do this faster, if you weigh pegs (the right one, right?). But I had a blast with my feet dangling. And my riding friend says "geezuz" at the end of the video. Great stuff guys.

I already showed this video here before, so I apologize for that. It was a ride in Death Valley, March last year. My bike is a WR250R. High center of gravity bike. Even higher because I don't weigh the pegs.

All is good and everyone should ride more and have fun! Weighing pegs or not. And celebrate at the end, weighing some beer glasses.

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Old 01-26-2012, 06:41 PM   #130
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My 76 TY had a seat (small tear comes to eye, loved that bike) Yes you can obviously lean the bike into the hill and shift your weight while seated but not as far as when standing. Try letting go fo the left side bar and moving it to the right to see how far you can shift your weight ...trials situations only of course.
This also assumes you are not about dig it into a sandy berm and unleash 50hp with your nuts on the tank to keep the front down 2 seconds later or about thousand other variables that make this a difficult never ending conversation.

I imagine I ride much like most people who have some off road experience (only faster and cooler, you'll have to take my word on that) and my NX650 certainly doesn't lend itself to standing. I just give an extreme example to make the effect of peg weighting easier to see.
How much you need to do it and how useful it is in varying situations, who knows but I suspect the more you push the boundaries of traction and speed the more it becomes a useful tool and probably why high speed enduro riders do it more than your average fire trail rider like me.

Looks like a great day in the hills on your vid, blue, blue sky.
My brother did a Death Valley Ride a few years ago and loved it, pretty savage altitude and temp changes from memory?
Followed it up with a Baja ride a week later, all on hire bikes while over there on holidays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
My bike must be magic. I never weigh the pegs. Too much waste of energy in my very humble opinion.

Now, I never rode a trials bike, and they don't have a seat. In those cases, if i rode one of "them" bikes I would HAVE to be standing, hence I would have to contribute to weighing the pegs.

The lean of a bike does not depend on weighing the pegs. And when I ride of off-camber, I do lean the bike towards the top of the hill, not the lowest part of the camber. The only thing that touches the ground when I'm riding are the bike wheels. Not the pegs.

Now, IMPORTANT: I'm not saying you should not weigh the pegs. Just that it is possible to ride bikes that have seats WITHOUT weighing the pegs.

And the DMV is not going to confiscate my motorcycle endorsement because I do not stand up when riding off road. I hope.

Here is a video that proves you don't need to weigh the pegs to have fun. Check the off camber with the "abyss" starting on minute 6:59



Of course, your mileage may vary and you could do this faster, if you weigh pegs (the right one, right?). But I had a blast with my feet dangling. And my riding friend says "geezuz" at the end of the video. Great stuff guys.

I already showed this video here before, so I apologize for that. It was a ride in Death Valley, March last year. My bike is a WR250R. High center of gravity bike. Even higher because I don't weigh the pegs.

All is good and everyone should ride more and have fun! Weighing pegs or not. And celebrate at the end, weighing some beer glasses.

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:55 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wop View Post
My 76 TY had a seat (small tear comes to eye, loved that bike) Yes you can obviously lean the bike into the hill and shift your weight while seated but not as far as when standing. Try letting go fo the left side bar and moving it to the right to see how far you can shift your weight ...trials situations only of course.
This also assumes you are not about dig it into a sandy berm and unleash 50hp with your nuts on the tank to keep the front down 2 seconds later or about thousand other variables that make this a difficult never ending conversation.

I imagine I ride much like most people who have some off road experience (only faster and cooler, you'll have to take my word on that) and my NX650 certainly doesn't lend itself to standing. I just give an extreme example to make the effect of peg weighting easier to see.
How much you need to do it and how useful it is in varying situations, who knows but I suspect the more you push the boundaries of traction and speed the more it becomes a useful tool and probably why high speed enduro riders do it more than your average fire trail rider like me.

Looks like a great day in the hills on your vid, blue, blue sky.
My brother did a Death Valley Ride a few years ago and loved it, pretty savage altitude and temp changes from memory?
Followed it up with a Baja ride a week later, all on hire bikes while over there on holidays.
I agree, at extreme situations i need extreme moves. I do stand up at times. But only when I really need it, though. Normally I go for the lazy way.

Three more videos of Death Valley, going faster this time.

And to keep it in content, I stood up at some very specific moments in these videos below. But the baseline is always the same. Sitting and relaxing. That doesn't mean, by the way, my upper body is not moving and making things happen.

Trail Canyon:


Eureka Dunes:


Warm Springs to Saline Road:



I was planning on going again this March, but work and family issues have kept me grounded this year.
I will one day ride in Australia!

Later
Lion
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Old 01-28-2012, 05:24 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by DrLewall View Post
primary reason for standing up, on pavement that is, is to stretch!..secondary, to see further ahead..op's querry is vague as it does not alude to on road vs off road..most answers given so far are for off road..but try standing up on a cruiser with fwd controls!
What's a cruiser with forward controls?

I stand anytime I want to stretch, fart, wiggle, adjust...
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:26 PM   #133
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it's been a while that we don't "talk" about standing up. This guy here takes it to another level. When he stands, he stands up on the seat! No weighing the pegs, no Center of Gravity. No off road bike either.



He certainly was not schooled by the regular star rider or mainstream off road school of riding.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:45 PM   #134
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I don't think I hardly ever stand up.
I mostly keep my butt a few inches off the seat over rough stuff.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:53 PM   #135
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The hotter the weather, the more I stand. 'cools the jets'
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