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Old 12-19-2011, 01:48 PM   #46
señormoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
Yeah... you're right. At least for a new bike and I think that is the situation in this case. But what about a used one? If your average HD rider is looking at a used bike and notices a cut-out in the tach that shows "ABS" and it doesn't light up, they could reasonably assume that it didn't light up because there is nothing wrong with the system. It seems just stupid for HD to claim they can't make different face-plates for the tach, depending on the equipment.
Ignorance is not an excuse.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by thematt View Post
Ignorance should not be an excuse.
Unfortunately in todays society it is up to the manufacturer to predict any possible ignorance or stupidity on the part of it's products users and design it's products so that they are idiot proof. If they can't make it idiot roof they need to at least put a bunch of ridiculous warning stickers all over it.

I can see it now. All new Harleys will have a big stickers stating that improper use of brakes can lead to serious injury or death and the brakes should not be used without proper training.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:12 PM   #48
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Can we agree on a couple of things---

---The case presented in court is a carefully filtered description of what really happened.
---The newspaper report is a much less carefully filtered account of the previously filtered court case.
---We have no idea of her helmet, it could have been a novelty faux-helmet or a half-helmet with the (marginal IMO) DOT cert or maybe even a 3/4 or full helmet, of which none is perfect.
---And, maybe, Harley should not have anything that said "ABS" on a non-ABS bike. We've all known some people that come to the goofiest conclusions....

DOT only tests the top half of the helmet, therefore half-helmets can pass. The certification is self-certified, and DOT actually has a few tested each year. Here is an out of date list which shows how some fail:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:15 PM   #49
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“On ABS equipped models, the amber ABS indicator lamp begins to flash at key ON to indicate that the system is operational. It continues to flash until motorcycle speed exceeds 3 mph (5 k km/h). Continuous illumination of the lamp will only occur when ABS detects that the system is malfunctioning. In diagnostic mode, the lamp will also illuminate to indicate the presence of diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). See a Harley-Davidson dealer for service.”

The rider should understand the nomenclature of the particular model
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:17 PM   #50
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Since (as I learned in the N.T.S.B. cell phone ban thread) almost every one around here believes laws are a great way to compensate for the lack of common sense...
Why not just petition the N.T.S.B. to make it illegal to sell bikes equipped without ABS or make it illegal for the Mfgs. to have cut-outs that mislead idiots into thinking they have ABS. (when they don't)
Hell, we could even petition for helmet interlock and neon color sensors that will not allow bikes to start unless you're wearing the proper safety gear.
They could package it all in the same bill so no one would ever notice it until it's too late to stop it.

O.M.G.! I'm beginning to think like the Herd.

I mean, my rights end where anothers begins, right?

rivercreep screwed with this post 12-19-2011 at 02:25 PM
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:23 PM   #51
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My car as the ABS cutout but it does not light, why because I don't have ABS. Are you kidding me.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricD10563 View Post
“On ABS equipped models, the amber ABS indicator lamp begins to flash at key ON to indicate that the system is operational. It continues to flash until motorcycle speed exceeds 3 mph (5 k km/h). Continuous illumination of the lamp will only occur when ABS detects that the system is malfunctioning. In diagnostic mode, the lamp will also illuminate to indicate the presence of diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). See a Harley-Davidson dealer for service.”

The rider should understand the nomenclature of the particular model

You see? Information in the manual. Evidently the bike owner didn't bother to read it and just assumed....


RTFM!
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
If a bike has ABS and there is an emergency, you hit the brakes hard.
Even with ABS, good technique (smooth application, not just grabbing a handful) makes a difference. That implies some degree of skill and practicing same.
Quote:
Because you don't have to worry about them locking up, there is no problem with letting up on the brake if conditions allow it. A person who knows they have ABS will use them as intended. There is no reason to consider negative consequences of letting off the brake in mid-stop.
At what point is it reasonable to expect that the rider has realized that the ABS isn't functioning? I've seen an RT-P ABS pump failure at 70mph, and trust me, that rider knew it right away.

Quote:
On a bike without ABS, you know that if you lock the rear, you must keep it locked. Letting off is the way to a high-side and propelling your wife 35 feet to her near death. You don't let up mid-stop. It is a different technique for different bikes.
I know no such things. Yeah, the MSF teaches that- non-MSF states don't, I explained why earlier- even if you're trying to keep it locked, you can high side.

Quote:
So this guy claims (note the operative word here), he thought it had ABS and presumably riding with a technique that is perfectly appropriate for a bike with that system. According to the article (which could be wrong), he was riding correctly for a bike with ABS.
More or less. Except for the part where he demonstrated poor traffic skills and got into a situation where he needed good braking skills and didn't have any, sure.

It does sound like he was riding the way far too many people do- believing that ABS will save their ass no matter how bone-headed they ride/drive- but people w/o ABS do that too.

Quote:
So now Harley is claiming that it is unreasonable to expect them to build a bike with two different tachometers? Really? That doesn't seem to unreasonable to me. They built them with two different braking systems, didn't they? I can certainly see how a person could see a cut-out that reads "ABS" could think the bike has ABS.
My wife's Toyota has cutouts in the instrument masks for ABS and TPMS lights but has neither. Cars are built with wiring harnesses and common dash boards to handle all the options; I can see the same with bikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
No reasonable person would overlook the fact that ABS brakes cost $1195.00. (if they had paid for it they would KNOW)
What if they had paid for it? Having been told you were buying goose and having paid for a goose, how much consumer responsibility does one have into checking that what you really wound up with isn't a duck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by '05Train View Post
Unless things have changed in the last year or so, Harley's helmets are made by HJC.
I believe that to be true. The HD dealer may sell beanies, but they won't have an HD or DOT sticker on it. (Those are sold separately... sigh).

Even if it was a DOT helmet, facial injuries make it fairly plain it wasn't full face (those things'll snap your neck, ya know).
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
What if they had paid for it? Having been told you were buying goose and having paid for a goose, how much consumer responsibility does one have into checking that what you really wound up with isn't a duck?
If they had paid for it and it wasn't there then this case would have been settled in two days.

I show all my customers how to tell an ABS Harley from a Non ABS Harley from 20' away.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
I show all my customers how to tell an ABS Harley from a Non ABS Harley from 20' away.
Be useful for me to know- helps me coach students at ART so I don't coach someone w/o ABS to try it out... They hate that.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:24 PM   #56
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My statement was wrong so I deleted it.

But this I'm sure of because I took it from my owners manual.

“On ABS equipped models, the amber ABS indicator lamp begins to flash at key ON to indicate that the system is operational. It continues to flash until motorcycle speed exceeds 3 mph (5 k km/h). Continuous illumination of the lamp will only occur when ABS detects that the system is malfunctioning. In diagnostic mode, the lamp will also illuminate to indicate the presence of diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). See a Harley-Davidson dealer for service.”

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Old 12-19-2011, 03:43 PM   #57
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I usually hate silly, excessively litigious suits about nothing, but I actually agree with this one, at least partly.

Imagine that guy was your friend, and had you take the bike out for a spin. It is not unreasonable to see the ABS cutout, and assume that there is an ABS system installed, and that the light isn't on because the system is functioning. Some clown pulls out in front of you, and being a well trained ADV rider, you react as trained: If it has abs brakes, pull hard, press hard, and hold on. Unfortunately, you lose traction, and crash. If you had known that it lacked ABS brakes, you would have done proper threshold braking, as you were also trained to do.

I think it is irresponsible to leave ambiguity in this regard. Maybe not $10 million irresponsible, but irresponsible nonetheless. My BMW K75 does not have ABS, although it was an option when new. There is no light, a place for one, or any other indication that would even suggest that it has anything besides the wooden and lockable, but excellent brakes that it has.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:45 PM   #58
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It is the Black ring that the axle goes through. It replaces a normal left side spacer on a NON ABS model. The centric ring is actually part of the wheel bearing on Harley's.

(you can only just see the edge of it in the picture above)
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:47 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmax351 View Post
Imagine that guy was your friend, and had you take the bike out for a spin. It is not unreasonable to see the ABS cutout, and assume that there is an ABS system installed,
It is hard to see when not lit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmax351 View Post
I think it is irresponsible to leave ambiguity in this regard. Maybe not $10 million irresponsible, but irresponsible nonetheless. My BMW K75 does not have ABS, although it was an option when new. There is no light, a place for one, or any other indication that would even suggest that it has anything besides the wooden and lockable, but excellent brakes that it has.
I have owned thre non abs BMW's and the all had abs cutouts as you call them. they just did not light up. I have seen countless cars for Japan the US and Europe that also did the same. If it don't light it aint got it.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:52 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
It is the Black ring that the axle goes through. It replaces a normal left side spacer on a NON ABS model. The centric ring is actually part of the wheel bearing on Harley's.

(you can only just see the edge of it in the picture above)
Thanks for the clarification, I must be wrong about the pick-up disk.
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