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Old 12-20-2011, 11:01 AM   #91
lemieuxmc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricochetrider View Post
done deal, and yee haw. i perused the thread (but didn't read every word) to see if anyone talks about the fact that,
if you are paying attention, you NORMALLY would not have to slam on the brakes.
so (yeah i KNOW it's been said) i call pirate error.

Fixed that for you, you don't need to thank me.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:03 AM   #92
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #93
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I'm not going to let my ABS make the decision for me, I'm going to let 35 years of riding make that decision


Your 35 years of riding experience translates to no one else's riding ability. There are plenty of new riders, like me, who have much less experience and while we may strive to learn, still have months of experience, not years. It is nice to have a motorcycle that works on limiting mistakes, not one that has needed info in the manual, but not observable.

Maybe the guy who crashed was an idiot, but you argument that so long as information is in the owners manual, there can be no criticism of the intuitiveness of the bike is crazy. Dakez had a good argument. He said, paraphrasing him, "the instrument panel is good." Your argument, if I understand it correctly, is that so long as an explanation of the panel is in the manual, "all is good." Good design is always a good thing.

Just my opinion, for what its worth.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:46 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoratioLegrande View Post
There are plenty of new riders, like me, who have much less experience and while we may strive to learn, still have months of experience, not years. It is nice to have a motorcycle that works on limiting mistakes, not one that has needed info in the manual, but not observable.

Maybe the guy who crashed was an idiot, but you argument that so long as information is in the owners manual, there can be no criticism of the intuitiveness of the bike is crazy.
I don't think that is what anyone was saying. Realize everything said was based off of the lawsuit. People aren't saying don't criticize, they are saying that allowing someone to sue for that basis is wrong. The other stuff should get sorted out when people decide what bikes to buy and which is the better designed bike.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:18 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by HoratioLegrande View Post
Your 35 years of riding experience translates to no one else's riding ability. There are plenty of new riders, like me, who have much less experience and while we may strive to learn, still have months of experience, not years. It is nice to have a motorcycle that works on limiting mistakes, not one that has needed info in the manual, but not observable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoratioLegrande View Post

Maybe the guy who crashed was an idiot, but you argument that so long as information is in the owners manual, there can be no criticism of the intuitiveness of the bike is crazy. Dakez had a good argument. He said, paraphrasing him, "the instrument panel is good." Your argument, if I understand it correctly, is that so long as an explanation of the panel is in the manual, "all is good." Good design is always a good thing.

Just my opinion, for what its worth.
Riding motorcycles isn't like most other things.

Take kayaking as an example; obviously pretty much anyone can paddle around on a glassy pond in a stable, sit on top, kayak. After a while you start to paddle farther, maybe get out when it's kind of windy and you learn how to cope with sidewinds and head winds. After a while you get a longer, narrower, faster, but less stable boat, with a skirt. Now you learn to Eskimo roll, and self rescue in open water, you are up to 10-12 miles of sustained paddling in offshore wind and chop. You also get a white water boat and start messing around in breaking surf and rivers with strong currents and eddies. At what point do you think you are ready for Class V big water, or unsupported passages offshore?

If you want to make a parallel with riding motorcycles, you should start out riding a small dirt bike off road until you can ride pretty much any gnarly trail. Then maybe you should get an older, used, 250 to 500cc street bike and start working your way around low traffic areas for a few months until you understand just how badly the average car driver is at paying attention. At this point you are probably ready to decide if you are serious about riding and whether you want to move up to a top line bike.

I think that riding around the greater Los Angeles (or insert 500,000+ population city name here) streets and freeways is about the equivalent (danger wise) of surfing big Mavericks, BASE jumping Half Dome, night carrier landings, or running the Grand Canyon at peak flow. How many people do you know who do that on a regular basis?
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:36 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
It is hard to see when not lit.



I have owned thre non abs BMW's and the all had abs cutouts as you call them. they just did not light up. I have seen countless cars for Japan the US and Europe that also did the same. If it don't light it aint got it.
My VW doesn't have ABS but has the cutoff indicator. I think it's time to go drive into something and sue VW!!!!!

I am sorry this woman got injured, but the rider is a f***ing IDIOT!!!! RIDER ERROR is what caused this accident.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:18 PM   #97
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The only way this woman should of been able to win is if motorcycle and car companies had known that there were large numbers of people that were so stupid that they regularly made the mistake of thinking their vehicles were equipped with safety devices that did not come with their vehicles because of the use of standardized gages which sometimes had non functioning "idiot lights" for features not equipped on those specific vehicles. They also would have to know that the mistaken belief in the presence of these incorrectly assumed safety devices would encourage the drivers to operate the vehicles in such a way that would lead to a significant difference in the accident rate for those operating similar vehicles who were not total morons.

bones_708 screwed with this post 12-21-2011 at 04:49 AM
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:51 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by bones_708 View Post
The only way this woman should of been able to win is if motorcycle and car companies had know that there were large numbers of people that were so stupid
Truly they should have known...

I feel sorry for the woman. She is probably just going along with what her "estranged"(per the article) husband is/was telling her to do for what he probably thought would be easy money. She probably has no idea the accident was caused by operator error. If he really didn't know the bike didn't have ABS after owning it for 15 months then he is a fool.
Thank doG common sense prevailed with the jurors.
She should sue her estranged husband for damages, both physical and mental and just for general principle.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:15 PM   #99
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See? Still going strong!

Keep up the good work guys!

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Old 12-21-2011, 01:31 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by duck View Post
This is not necessarily true. 80s and 90s K bikes had different instrument clusters for ABS and non-ABS bikes.
Interesting...I honestly did not know that.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:06 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by andy29847 View Post
Panic braking, rear end swings around, rider lets off brake, tires grab, passengers fly.

The ABS lights I have seen come on when the ignition is turned on, then go off (unless there is a problem with the ABS).

It is dumber than shit to have an ABS light on a bike that does not have ABS.
Agreed. I doubt the rider genuinely believed he had ABS when he didn't, unless he is too stupid to own a motorcycle and/or was outright lied to by the dealer. I would generally be inclined to say Harley should fight it tooth and nail; rider error all the way. If, however, the bike has an ABS indicator on the panel (and a working bulb behind it!) on a bike that came from the factory without ABS fitted, that is beyond stupid on Harley's part and they deserve to have to deal with a mickey mouse court case. They should do a recall, remove the offending bulbs and put 1" of black electrical tape over the offending abs indicator. Future bikes shouldn't have the indicator on if they don't have ABS. This is what blanking plates were designed for, people.


You're right about throwing the pillion off too. I was thrown from the saddle after my sliding rear wheel refound grip on the slab (100% my fault) and highsided me. I was able to hang on the bars, Ruben Xaus style. I knackered my shoulder and had to stamp a foot down to keep the bike upright, but I avoided "crashing". Had I been a pillion and not been holding on to something firmly attached to the bike, I'd have flown through the air. I can easily see how the pillion could be flung off due to a braking error.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:22 AM   #102
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I think it's interesting...

...that HD offered to settle before trial for $900k, but the plaintiffs and/or attorney wanted to roll the dice with the jury instead. That was a mistake. $900k beats the hell out of nothing.

I have yet to hear what kind of helmet the woman was wearing, and if the jury thought the severity of her injuries was due to contributory negligence. Evidently, they didn't buy the plaintiff's argument since they didn't get a dime from HD.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:18 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoratioLegrande View Post
I am not confused by a HD instrument panel, but apparently some people are. I guess I might be though if I ever rode a Harley. Some people new to motorcycling, like me, might not be the experts that others here are. I am not excusing someone not knowing what they are doing. Just saying there are two sides to this,. One could have known better, the other could had made a instrument panel that was less ambiguous. Right?
If you know nothing, you assume nothing. I mean, if you're confused about everything on a dash panel, whether you paid for an option or not or even don't fucking know about it, why don't you start with your owner manual?
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:31 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by ObiJohn View Post
[I think it's interesting]...that HD offered to settle before trial for $900k,
I think it's disgraceful, both as a tactic to stay out of the news and as a comment that they were concerned a jury would find them in the wrong.

Having gone to trial, there's precedent that the design is sound. Had they settled pre-trial, the door would remain open for another lawsuit by some other f'idiot that couldn't be bothered to learn traffic management.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:38 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ObiJohn View Post
$900k beats the hell out of nothing.

The 900k was actually nothing too:


"He said his client turned down a pretrial settlement offer of $900,000, an amount that would have left her with next to nothing after a medical lien, experts' costs and his own fees were deducted."
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