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Old 01-08-2012, 01:52 PM   #61
HogWild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strong Bad View Post
There are only so many routes through most areas, most have been raced on, on and off for over 40 years. You tell us where we are starting and finishing and many of us will be able to pretty much tell you how they will get there and most likely have a GPS track for it. Its Baja, not BF Egypt.
Correct. That's one big disadvantage of Baja. I just got off the phone with Ken, the guy who lays out the course and makes the roadbook, and we talked about this issue a bit. Though you may be able to determine the route in certain areas, it's not tough at all to throw in a few detours off the main road, with checkpoints, so you do have to navigate the whole way if you don't want penalties. It would be pretty easy, and maybe even a bit entertaining to really screw with the guys who "think" they know where the course goes.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:12 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Correct. That's one big disadvantage of Baja. I just got off the phone with Ken, the guy who lays out the course and makes the roadbook, and we talked about this issue a bit. Though you may be able to determine the route in certain areas, it's not tough at all to throw in a few detours off the main road, with checkpoints, so you do have to navigate the whole way if you don't want penalties. It would be pretty easy, and maybe even a bit entertaining to really screw with the guys who "think" they know where the course goes.
Hogwild,

I know that you have very strong feelings about making this rally a real rally, one where they would limit everything, and give you a road book and say have fun. However, for this rally to continue to grow, they must bring on new entrants every year. It is first a vintage rally, celebrating vintage racing. In the old days, there were not routes, just a beginning and an end. And that was enough, because there were no highways when Malcolm won it in 1967. That is not the case now. As StrongBad says, it is no longer BF egypt. Also, you don't hide your disdain for GPS at all!

That said, getting a vintage bike, car, truck or buggy, 1000 miles down the Baja peninsula is pretty difficult already without "screwing" with the entrants to test their navigation skills. Ken is talking of having an award for those wishing to only use a roadbook and I love that idea.

But if you are an organizer and you want the rally to grow, you have got to reach out to non-traditional rally racers. I know that you participated in at least one M1K (maybe 2?), but you decided not to race last year, even when they were using roadbooks (and I know and appreciate that you are the one converting the big books to the small ones...thanks for that)...that was one less entrant (and entry fee) because you chose not to race.

I wish they would stay a vintage only rally, but I recognize their need to bring in money to keep this thing going....so I am excited that we are seeing many new people considering...and entering this year since they opened it up.

I would bet that the Mexican 1000 will never live up to what you would like to see - a true Dakar style off-road rally in North America, but I hope that you can at least understand that many of us are still excited about this race and still think it is a challenge just to cross that finish line in one piece. I would be interested in seeing how many entrants a true Dakar style rally would garner in Mexico?? I wonder why SCORE, NORRA and other off-road racing organizations haven't done it yet? Maybe you could be the one to start one?

I don't think it is unreasonable for the organizers to give the milage estimates for the specials so that people driving vintage vehicles and bikes can make sure that they have enough fuel to finish the special. The rebirth of the M1K was intended to be a fun vintage rally, and one where the focus was fun, not extreme competition. Maybe that is why many Baja veterans have called the Mexican 1000 the funnest race they've participated in.

This year I will be running a GPS and a roadbook, but I'm very happy that I could also find my way using a AAA map and/or a GPS (getting penalties if necessary) because keeping a 40-year-old bike on course, on two wheels and moving south is pretty tough work all by itself without worrying about being lost in the desert.

I guess that is why I race in the Mexican 1000 and not the Baja or Dakar, or other true-blue rally....I'm just there to race and have some fun.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:24 PM   #63
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I know that you have very strong feelings about making this rally a real rally...
My goal isn't to make this a real rally. My goal is to help them in areas they want help where I have expertise.

I hear your thoughts, and I agree with many of your points. But I'm also hearing what Ken Cameron is saying (2 hours on the phone with him today, at the moment your post came in). He's clearly leaning in the direction of traditional rally. It's not my race, and I have no say in how they run it. But when Ken talks about moving it closer and closer to the standard rally format, and he's asking me for help with that, I'm going to do my best to help him do it right. If he wasn't talking about phasing out detailed maps, cutting back on the reliance on GPS, and doing what he can to make it a serious stepping stone towards Dakar, I wouldn't be posting in this thread, I'd be off doing something else. But since he's leaning more in that direction each year, I'm doing my best to educate people on what that really means. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger!

Ken and the others at NORRA are well aware of the limitations of the vintage vehicles, the desire of many to keep the event more like a traditional Baja race and less like a rally, and all those issues. That's why GPS will still be supported. But they are in a tough position of trying to satisfy multiple conflicting goals. Apparently sponsors are looking for something different. Rally is different and vintage is different, but in some ways those two things don't mix perfectly. The hardcore rally people are going to complain that it's not realistic enough, and the traditional Baja racers are going to complain that the maps suck. The true fun seekers will look for the best in both worlds and have a good time independent of the fine details. Remember, no matter how you navigate it, the roads and trails you ride on are the same.

I actually love GPS. I couldn't do my rally training stuff without one. But I also like the mental challenge of navigating rally style. One is apples, one is oranges. They're both good in my book!
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:09 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
My goal isn't to make this a real rally. My goal is to help them in areas they want help where I have expertise.

I hear your thoughts, and I agree with many of your points. But I'm also hearing what Ken Cameron is saying (2 hours on the phone with him today, at the moment your post came in). He's clearly leaning in the direction of traditional rally. It's not my race, and I have no say in how they run it. But when Ken talks about moving it closer and closer to the standard rally format, and he's asking me for help with that, I'm going to do my best to help him do it right. If he wasn't talking about phasing out detailed maps, cutting back on the reliance on GPS, and doing what he can to make it a serious stepping stone towards Dakar, I wouldn't be posting in this thread, I'd be off doing something else. But since he's leaning more in that direction each year, I'm doing my best to educate people on what that really means. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger!

Ken and the others at NORRA are well aware of the limitations of the vintage vehicles, the desire of many to keep the event more like a traditional Baja race and less like a rally, and all those issues. That's why GPS will still be supported. But they are in a tough position of trying to satisfy multiple conflicting goals. Apparently sponsors are looking for something different. Rally is different and vintage is different, but in some ways those two things don't mix perfectly. The hardcore rally people are going to complain that it's not realistic enough, and the traditional Baja racers are going to complain that the maps suck. The true fun seekers will look for the best in both worlds and have a good time independent of the fine details. Remember, no matter how you navigate it, the roads and trails you ride on are the same.

I actually love GPS. I couldn't do my rally training stuff without one. But I also like the mental challenge of navigating rally style. One is apples, one is oranges. They're both good in my book!
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Thanks for that thoughtful and insightful reply! It is interesting to hear the direction Ken wants to take the M1K.

I agree that a stepping stone rally to Dakar would be very cool...but also think that does not necessarily fit well with the vintage aspect of the M1K. As you say, it will be tough trying to satisfy conflicting goals..that is something that NORRA will have to figure out for sure.

Thanks again for your assistance with the road books and other things navigational! Now if we can just get our bike back together so we can start testing it out...and practicing our road book skillz!
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:32 AM   #65
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Oregoncoast - I liked your post about more fun and less race as a formula. I think that is what makes the Mex 1k attractive for both the steering wheels and the handlebars. The hard core desert racers have plenty of events to compete in. This one should be more of a tour with some competition thrown in to attract a different crowd. Adding the moderns does that I think. For example, people trailering from the right coast won't have time to pre-run and all that other stuff required to do a race properly. They'll show up with a suitable machine, maybe a chase truck with friends crewing, and have some fun riding terrain they've only read about. I think it should be sort of a vacation for old school dirt bikers.

If they want the same racers they have at their other events by making it a stepping stone for Dakar, I think they make a serious mistake. Dakar is for people who don't mind dropping $100k for a 2 week adventure. There aren't many of those around. It's not a viable market to pursue.
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:37 AM   #66
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There's nothing stopping old school dirt bikers from taking a vacation and riding down the peninsula on their vintage bikes all year long. And there are plenty of low-stress opportunities to race a vintage bike around.

On the other hand, there are no legit dakar-style rally races in this corner of the world right now. Would be very cool to have one for the many of us that want to try our hand at that type of racing and could never justify spending the resources to make it to south america, europe or northern africa. Imho the market for a legit rally desert race would be much broader than just those that have or are willing to spend the mean$ to make it to dakar one day.

...Just my two pesos...
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:46 AM   #67
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It's a tricky thing trying to organize an event like this and keep everybody happy, I don't envy the organizers. All I can say is I hope they are successful at it.

I am one of those who personally would love to see it become more of a Dakar style roadbook rally, but I also am really looking forward to seeing the vintage vehicles and hopefully meet some of the Baja legends who turned Baja into a synonym for off-road racing
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:51 AM   #68
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I personally see nothing wrong with not allowing GPS. If all you have is a road book, you just deal with it, that's all. If they go in that direction, I would like to see a more detailed road book than what they've had in the past. Having check points mid stage, and more detailed course notes all adds up to more people and more time, both of which are hard to come by.

Much like the BFG pit/chase books done for SCORE races in Baja, or SCORE's Tulip notes, once a route is mapped, it's fairly simple to adjust it from year to year. NORRA can do same with thier road books.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:37 PM   #69
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What to expect?

Can anyone comment on the level of difficulty of the route. I've got a range of bikes to choose from a 2004 KTM 200 EXC, to a '07 450EXC to a '02 Honda XR650L to an '06 BMW HP2 and trying to figure out which would be the best/most appropriate for the terrain/roads covered.

Don't think I want to do it on the 2-stroke, but am trying to figure out which of the 4 strokes would make the most sense/be most fun.

Appreciate any insights/advice folks can provide.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:52 PM   #70
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if it was me and I had one .. the BMW those things rip I raced the Mount Hood Rally in 08 and a father son raced em.. but for relabilty wise .. bulletproof honda quality is a good choice too!
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:58 PM   #71
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Can anyone comment on the level of difficulty of the route. I've got a range of bikes to choose from a 2004 KTM 200 EXC, to a '07 450EXC to a '02 Honda XR650L to an '06 BMW HP2 and trying to figure out which would be the best/most appropriate for the terrain/roads covered.

Don't think I want to do it on the 2-stroke, but am trying to figure out which of the 4 strokes would make the most sense/be most fun.

Appreciate any insights/advice folks can provide.
Don't bring the HP2, those things scare me when they pass me at 3x my speed
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:52 PM   #72
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No guts, no glory. Go with the Beemer, if you are strong enough. Nothing technical for bikes.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by fredbenz View Post
Can anyone comment on the level of difficulty of the route. I've got a range of bikes to choose from a 2004 KTM 200 EXC, to a '07 450EXC to a '02 Honda XR650L to an '06 BMW HP2 and trying to figure out which would be the best/most appropriate for the terrain/roads covered.

Don't think I want to do it on the 2-stroke, but am trying to figure out which of the 4 strokes would make the most sense/be most fun.

Appreciate any insights/advice folks can provide.
All the fun they said...but for real that 450EXC with a desert tank would be the ticket.....invest in a nice seat.

The one thing that all of the other bikers said at the finish in La Paz last year was that they loved my seat. My SL had a gigantic seat!! ADV FF Radioman shaped the seat for me, and I had a local upholstered it for me....I call it the Radioman Couch!



I fully expect to see all of the guys returning from last year with big fat pillow seats on their XR's and CRF's!!

Don't laugh....heed my advice, and you will thank me in Cabo.

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Old 01-09-2012, 10:06 PM   #74
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WE will be racing a trio of KTM 640 ADV's.
one rider per bike!!!!

PS = make it more like a Rally.,.. Road book !!!!!
with a little GPS.
If people want to race a Score type race then go Race SCORE>
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:05 PM   #75
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Race both SCORE and NORRA. However, NORRA is more fun...........
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