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Old 02-22-2012, 05:34 AM   #181
bobnoxious67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
That's a strange statement as the premise of this conversation is discussing light (450cc) adventure bikes and what I paid for my heavy (R1100GS) is only a tiny bit of what I commented on. To humour you in regard to my mid-weight 435cc adventure bike, I paid $1000 for my DR350 and have probably put another $500 into it over the last couple of years. It now has a decent touring seat and rack and with soft luggage strapped on it is more-or-less ready to go on a long-distance tour. If it were a WR450R, rather than a souped-up DR350, it would probably have 10 or 15 more HP and better suspension but then it would probably cost $6000 more. A half-decent KTM would cost what? $4000? and would still need touring equipment added.
Ummm...I'm pretty sure I got it right. Your statement below brings absolutely nothing to the conversation, other than that somebody probably gave you a GS for almost free, and you bought a dirt cheap DR. Good for you, and enjoy


Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Wow! This has turned into an orange Koolaid mania/phobia thread.

I have not axe to grind in that respect but most KTM models wouldn't work for me as I just don't care to spend that much or deal with such high maintenance machinery. There are no dealers near me and I couldn't get a decent KTM for what I've got invested in both my R1100GS and DR350/435 put together and upkeep costs would probably be as much as both together as well.

I have a rack and soft bags for my DR350/435 and am considering a 2500-mile road-trip to/from/around Big Bend NP, TX in April. I think the little DR will manage fine but will withhold final judgement until the trip is done. I don't anticipate having to change the oil or adjust the valves during the trip - If that was a possibility I think I would be considering a different mount.

Funny how riders like you take the "high maint" Euro bike statements from the interwebby as gospel...but when those of us who actually own them tell you differently, you ignore us

I'm into my TE610 for a whopping $5000 (including Lynx/seat/Dirt Bagz). $100 timing chain at 6K, $100 for some clutch parts now at 14K, chains/sprockets/tires/brakes/oil and filters...wow, what a fucking maintenance whore (DR's must be immune to valve adjustments, oil changes, tires, chains, brakes)
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:38 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
Wow! This has turned into an orange Koolaid mania/phobia thread....
Maybe that is because KTM, Husky and Beta already make the bike this thread is about. A fact that KTM riders fully understand. But the prevailing Internet conventional wisdom among non KTM riders says those Euro bikes can't do adventure riding. So one side is already riding the bikes this thread is about and the other side is still wringing their hands over why they aren't made in Japan.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:22 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Maybe that is because KTM, Husky and Beta already make the bike this thread is about. A fact that KTM riders fully understand. But the prevailing Internet conventional wisdom among non KTM riders says those Euro bikes can't do adventure riding. So one side is already riding the bikes this thread is about and the other side is still wringing their hands over why they aren't made in Japan.

/thread.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:53 PM   #184
bobnoxious67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Maybe that is because KTM, Husky and Beta already make the bike this thread is about. A fact that KTM riders fully understand. But the prevailing Internet conventional wisdom among non KTM riders says those Euro bikes can't do adventure riding. So one side is already riding the bikes this thread is about and the other side is still wringing their hands over why they aren't made in Japan.
This
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:58 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VxZeroKnots View Post
/thread.
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Maybe that is because KTM, Husky and Beta already make the bike this thread is about. A fact that KTM riders fully understand. But the prevailing Internet conventional wisdom among non KTM riders says those Euro bikes can't do adventure riding. So one side is already riding the bikes this thread is about and the other side is still wringing their hands over why they aren't made in Japan.
Sorry but the service manual of euro bikes is heavily suggestive that it's a bad idea unless you like loads of maintenance.

Perhaps if the thousands of hours of research these Euro manufacturers have put into their service manuals is incorrect you should advise them that they're wrong because you like, own one and ride it around and stuff.

The Euro bikes aim at performance and they're very good at it but their #1 goal is not reliability and reliability is far more important for adventure riding. Note that I wouldn't take a CRF450X, a WR450F or, a KLX450F either, the problem here isn't necessarily Euro vs Japan but ADV vs Dual Sport vs Enduro (though if I were on a long trip to Sth America I'd take a Suzuki DR650 over a KTM 690 anyday).
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:16 PM   #187
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I don't know anything about the Euro brands, but do know the typical DR will go 20,000 miles with oil changes, a few valve adjustments (costs nothing and is quick), and maybe front brake pads.
At 20,000 miles it will be time for a chain and sprockets, then rinse and repeat in another 20,000 miles.
No cam chains, no clutch plates, no motor work.

The downside is the bikes are heavy and low powered compaired to euro bikes.

Tough tank VS race bike.

In a race, I would think the euro bike would be best, long trip, the tank.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoxious67 View Post
Ummm...I'm pretty sure I got it right. Your statement below brings absolutely nothing to the conversation, other than that somebody probably gave you a GS for almost free, and you bought a dirt cheap DR. Good for you, and enjoy





Funny how riders like you take the "high maint" Euro bike statements from the interwebby as gospel...but when those of us who actually own them tell you differently, you ignore us

I'm into my TE610 for a whopping $5000 (including Lynx/seat/Dirt Bagz). $100 timing chain at 6K, $100 for some clutch parts now at 14K, chains/sprockets/tires/brakes/oil and filters...wow, what a fucking maintenance whore (DR's must be immune to valve adjustments, oil changes, tires, chains, brakes)
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:34 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
I don't know anything about the Euro brands, but do know the typical DR will go 20,000 miles with oil changes, a few valve adjustments (costs nothing and is quick), and maybe front brake pads.
At 20,000 miles it will be time for a chain and sprockets, then rinse and repeat in another 20,000 miles.
No cam chains, no clutch plates, no motor work.

The downside is the bikes are heavy and low powered compaired to euro bikes.

Tough tank VS race bike.

In a race, I would think the euro bike would be best, long trip, the tank.
You know not every KTM and Husky is a race bike, right? You know my 610 is sporting a 3k oil change/6k valve adjustment check, right? You know I could probably get 20,000 miles out of a chain and sprockets if I babied it everyplace and didn't beat the shit out of it in the dirt too (if you get that many miles, it's because that's what you do. Period), right? A few 610's need a cam chain every 10k-20k...you're right, a few blown 3rd gears and a few backed out NS switch screws (blowing up engines) is way better

Please...for the love of god...don't try to convince us that a DR is what we all need!

PS: my wife's DR needed a clutch at 15K
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:11 PM   #189
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OK I give, you guys that have never owned a KTM are right about them. I mean you should know because you read it on the Internet. Never mind that I have over 30 continuous years on nothing but Japanese dual sports. Not street bikes, not dirt bikes, but dual sports. So I am not some orange Koolaid drinking n00b just discovering dual sports and offroad riding. I switched to KTM from Yamaha and Honda because I rode with and on them.

I got to ride with and on KTM's on three different long AMA dual sport rides. I discovered for myself that they work better. A lot better in fact. Then I talked to KTM owners and discovered they aren't finicky race bikes that you are constantly wrenching. I discovered those guys were riding better bikes than I was and not working on them any more than I was. In fact on all the Japanese bikes, including mine, broke on those rides but the KTM's didn't.

In other words I learned this by riding with and on them not sitting on my damned couch surfing. That was when I decided to stop making excuses and buy one. I loved it. So I bought another one and love it. Now I have two KTM dual sports. And, oddly enough, they have been the two most reliable bikes I have ever owned. Granted that might be because I thrash them offroad and KTM's are better suited for that. But the fact remains they are tougher than my Japanese bikes.

Funny what you discover when you have actual experience on both sides of an argument. The reason I keep posting this stuff is because this thread is about 450 adventure bikes or the lack of them. But they do already exist. They just aren't Japanese. I'm not pushing KTM's. I am only saying you can buy a dual sport 450 now that just happens to be European and kit it the way you need to ride where you want. Or you can keep waiting for a blue, yellow, red or green one.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:01 PM   #190
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A marketing problem

It appears that the Euro-bikes have a marketing failure.

I for one, and apparently quite a few others, thought that KTM, GAS GAS, Aprillia, Husqvarna etc....make great motocross, enduro race or trials bikes. But did not know that the manufacturers offered anything to the more laid-back off/and on roaders.
Now I'm seriously considering a TE449/511, or a 450 EXC. Without your input in this thread, which caused me to seek-out model specific threads in Thumpers, KTMTalk and Cafe-Husky, they would not even be on my radar (so to speak).
Thanks.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:26 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
OK I give, you guys that have never owned a KTM are right about them. I mean you should know because you read it on the Internet. Never mind that I have over 30 continuous years on nothing but Japanese dual sports. Not street bikes, not dirt bikes, but dual sports. So I am not some orange Koolaid drinking n00b just discovering dual sports and offroad riding. I switched to KTM from Yamaha and Honda because I rode with and on them.

I got to ride with and on KTM's on three different long AMA dual sport rides. I discovered for myself that they work better. A lot better in fact. Then I talked to KTM owners and discovered they aren't finicky race bikes that you are constantly wrenching. I discovered those guys were riding better bikes than I was and not working on them any more than I was. In fact on all the Japanese bikes, including mine, broke on those rides but the KTM's didn't.

In other words I learned this by riding with and on them not sitting on my damned couch surfing. That was when I decided to stop making excuses and buy one. I loved it. So I bought another one and love it. Now I have two KTM dual sports. And, oddly enough, they have been the two most reliable bikes I have ever owned. Granted that might be because I thrash them offroad and KTM's are better suited for that. But the fact remains they are tougher than my Japanese bikes.

Funny what you discover when you have actual experience on both sides of an argument. The reason I keep posting this stuff is because this thread is about 450 adventure bikes or the lack of them. But they do already exist. They just aren't Japanese. I'm not pushing KTM's. I am only saying you can buy a dual sport 450 now that just happens to be European and kit it the way you need to ride where you want. Or you can keep waiting for a blue, yellow, red or green one.
The funny part of this post is the tag line that doesn't get quoted when you click on quote.

Quote:
KTM 640 LC4E
KTM 200 MXC
XT200
So as far as I can tell, you don't own a 450 adventure bike made by KTM, Husky or any other Euro manufacturer. The 640LC4E has as much in common with a 450exc as a DR650 does. The 640LCE is an adventure bike with long service intervals, good road manners, and the ability to ride single track, but not excell at it when compared to an EXC. The 200mxc has as much in common as any other 2 stroke, tight gear ratio, woods weapon would have with a 450 adventure bike...absolutely nothing.

Your xt200 is probably the closest comparison to a 450 adventure bike that you own......just sayin'
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #192
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Never said I did own a 450 adventure bike. What I have been saying is to stop whining because the Japanese don't make one and buy an EXC450, TE450 or the Beta. It ain't like nobody makes one. If a Beta or KTM is too race bike then get the TE since it is a rebadged BMW. What could be more mainstream than that?

And I can't figure out which is more disturbing. That you think a 50+ horsepower, 300 pound bike with 12" of suspension travel and a pizza platter sized Brembo brake compares favorably to a DR650 or that my pathetic little XT200 compares to any bike this side of the Jurassic period.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:41 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainshadow View Post

So as far as I can tell, you don't own a 450 adventure bike made by KTM, Husky or any other Euro manufacturer.


Wow, Grreatdog has an amazing amount of patience. I agree with his point that various
European 450cc bikes are a reasonable basis for building an adventure bike, though none
of them is ready to go out of the box in the manner of a KTM 640 Adventure ( which of course
will also need mods but it did come from the factory with the fuel capacity and subframe required of an adventure bike ).

I've ridden all the bikes which have been discussed in this thread and I have owned a few of those
bikes as well. None of the bikes mentioned are bad bikes, but each bike has strengths and weaknesses,
and the individual user must therefore choose based on his personal priorities in order to have a satisfying
ownership experience.

It seems quite obvious that the Japanese are not going to make a 450cc version of a WR250R, and they
probably have very good reasons for not doing it. The economy is down worldwide, people are not buying
bikes like they did in decades past, and spending the money required for design and tooling of an entirely
new model of bike at this time is not likely to be in the cards for any of the major motorcycle manufacturers,
especially if these manufacturers have reason to believe the market for such a bike would be
too small to justify the expenditure ( sad but true, the real market for a 450 adventure bike is probably not
nearly as large as we enthusiasts would like to believe ).

So what we are all left with is choosing from among the bikes which exist already. We each have different
ideas of which bike is closest to our ideal, and most of us pick a bike on that basis and then maybe we
mod the bike from there so it suits us even more. There is no more point in making a claim that Bike
X is the best bike , any more than making a claim that Beer X is the best beer. We all have our own
idea of what is best, and every single one of us is right, because no one else will ever know what suits
us as well as we do.

Just don't ask me to give up my 450 EXC ...

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Old 02-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoxious67 View Post
Funny how riders like you take the "high maint" Euro bike statements from the interwebby as gospel...but when those of us who actually own them tell you differently, you ignore us
Not at all. I'm reading on this very thread and some of the threads and forums linked in, that some people ride tens of thousands of miles with long-period maintenance and no major mechanical issues whereas others report frequent valve jobs, failed cam chains, clutches and other things I would consider troublesome for the miles involved.

Quote:
I'm into my TE610 for a whopping $5000 (including Lynx/seat/Dirt Bagz). $100 timing chain at 6K, $100 for some clutch parts now at 14K, chains/sprockets/tires/brakes/oil and filters...wow, what a fucking maintenance whore (DR's must be immune to valve adjustments, oil changes, tires, chains, brakes)
Doesn't seem too bad, although if you had to replace the timing chain at 6K, that doesn't grab me as an example of low maintenance or long-term reliability. Still, I had to replace the transmission on my BMW at 22K although it's done another 40K with no issues since. The DR needed some work too, but almost entirely due to previous abuse (stripped valve cover bolt.) I've only put on about 4 of its 16K but apart from the above, an oil change and a valve check (no adjust needed) it has just been ridden.

When you start talking about 600cc+ dual purpose bikes, I would be quite tempted by some of the Husky and KTM offerings. DR650 and its ilk would also be on the list for consideration however.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:02 PM   #195
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Yikes...everybody with a Euro bike take a deep breath. I was just kidding around with you guys. I'll grant that the DR650 reference was a bit trollish, but you have to admit that your bikes don't have much in common with the bike that the OP is talking about. A 640 is not a light, nimble, single track weapon that can cruise highways with long maintenance intervals. It fills parts of that description, but not the whole picture. If you said that you had a LC4 400 it would be much closer to what the OP was talking about.

The real question is why does every East Coast guy with a KTM has no sense of humor when it comes to discussions reguarding Euro vs Japanese bikes? If you go back through the thread, nearly every guy screaming that we'd all be idiots for considering anything other than Euro bikes is from the East Coast. Maybe they'd better cut back on the caffine in the Orange Kool Aid...

Rainshadow (born in NYC, grew up in Jersey, but managed to escape against all odds about 30 years ago)
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