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Old 03-07-2012, 10:04 PM   #136
Antigravity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Eight A123 cells start the 4.2 liter V-8 in my Mercedes at 46 degrees ambient with no lag and will do it 10 times in a row with the headlights on without slowing. Your 12 cell battery is almost absurd.
I have the same results Anorak, and have a 12-cell under the truck seat just for emergencies... But there is factor here that allows that great performance in cars and it is usually the great starter reduction gearing in cars with that super large ring gear on the flywheel/torque converter area, and also the efficiency of the system in general with the nice grounding and fat cable usually a miniumum of 4 awg and the starters also seem very efficient. Some bikes also have great starter reduction gear though it varies alot and the efficiency of the starter plays a part too... for example our 4-cell starts the GSXR 750 fine... yet it is slower to turn over the CBR 600.... it turns out the CBR has not as good starter reduction gearing and also a starter that isn't as efficient.

Interesting fact----
I heard on the new super killer Ducati Superbike they did some engine efficiency work to allow for easier turn over so they could use a much smaller battery than normal... so the bike is able to use a smaller battery to achieve the good starting results by making the engine easier to turn over on the start attemp,t where-as normally twins are a harder turn-over than inline 4 cylinders....

I guess the point is just that it not just the battery but the vehicle also that can make for a harder start...
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:20 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
I have the same results Anorak, and have a 12-cell under the truck seat just for emergencies... But there is factor here that allows that great performance in cars and it is usually the great starter reduction gearing in cars with that super large ring gear on the flywheel/torque converter area, and also the efficiency of the system in general with the nice grounding and fat cable usually a miniumum of 4 awg and the starters also seem very efficient. Some bikes also have great starter reduction gear though it varies alot and the efficiency of the starter plays a part too... for example our 4-cell starts the GSXR 750 fine... yet it is slower to turn over the CBR 600.... it turns out the CBR has not as good starter reduction gearing and also a starter that isn't as efficient.

Interesting fact----
I heard on the new super killer Ducati Superbike they did some engine efficiency work to allow for easier turn over so they could use a much smaller battery than normal... so the bike is able to use a smaller battery to achieve the good starting results by making the engine easier to turn over on the start attemp,t where-as normally twins are a harder turn-over than inline 4 cylinders....

I guess the point is just that it not just the battery but the vehicle also that can make for a harder start...

I've got the battery wired to the bolts on the regular lead cable ends that would normally connect to the posts so the connection is compromised. Also, would a YTX-14BS start my car repeatedly?

Interesting rumor on the Ducati. The early 1098's had starting issues. Part of it was due to too much ignition advance during cranking caused by a software glitch but Ducati made a running change to the starter drive ratio also.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:44 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Also, would a YTX-14BS start my car repeatedly?

Interesting rumor on the Ducati. The early 1098's had starting issues. Part of it was due to too much ignition advance during cranking caused by a software glitch but Ducati made a running change to the starter drive ratio also.
The Ducati fact I brought up i is from the new Cycle News write up, and the Ducati engineers explain what they did, pretty cool stuff and I guess the bike is the best thing since sliced bread according to all the raves... cool stuff.

As far at the YTX14 doing the repeated starts..... Maybe but probably not... You may know this stuff but for those who don't.....One of the issues with lead acid batteries is that they do not handle high amp discharges well, nor do they handle higher constant current draws very well... The amp hour rating for a lead acid battery is given on a very low amp draw (cant remember the actual number, maybe its one amp)... but the fact is leads capacity/amp hours will be diminished much more by high amp discharges than a lithium battery would be (using roughly equivalent batteries).
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:00 PM   #139
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Hey Cy and the hard core adventure riders...

I'm not understanding something, most likely because I'm not an Adventure Rider...but it seems sort of obvoius...

I keep seeing testing of voltage, an comments about starting in cold weather and questions, if Lifepo4 can handle a trip around the world. But what I'm not getting is that you have a technology that due to its extreme small size and high power would allow for a redundant battery system, yet I don't see anyone speaking on that...

If I was going into the deep places of Africa or where ever I would take two 12-Cells or a 12 and an 8 and laugh away that day knowing I have a system an a back-up. I would want security...Though I preach about getting the most power you can having a redundant system would trump that and provide for the massive power and amp hours if I needed itplus give security . Keep in mind the battery that sits doing nothing is not going to lose voltage/energy during the whole adventure... but if some trouble should start just a have a quick parallel connection for starting in the most freezing of weather at 720 Cranking amps and laugh at Jack Frost or just a back up source of power for a GPS...
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Old 03-08-2012, 12:00 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Hey Cy and the hard core adventure riders...

I'm not understanding something, most likely because I'm not an Adventure Rider...but it seems sort of obvoius...

I keep seeing testing of voltage, an comments about starting in cold weather and questions, if Lifepo4 can handle a trip around the world. But what I'm not getting is that you have a technology that due to its extreme small size and high power would allow for a redundant battery system, yet I don't see anyone speaking on that...

If I was going into the deep places of Africa or where ever I would take two 12-Cells or a 12 and an 8 and laugh away that day knowing I have a system an a back-up. I would want security...Though I preach about getting the most power you can having a redundant system would trump that and provide for the massive power and amp hours if I needed itplus give security . Keep in mind the battery that sits doing nothing is not going to lose voltage/energy during the whole adventure... but if some trouble should start just a have a quick parallel connection for starting in the most freezing of weather at 720 Cranking amps and laugh at Jack Frost or just a back up source of power for a GPS...
totally agree... light weight of LiFePO4 batteries makes carrying a backup feasible. in post #117 covered that when weighing SYCL battery. fortunately R80G/S has a kick starter so already got a manual backup. which almost no modern Adventure bike has any more.

testing data has shown Shorai LFX21 AH (pd eq) is up to the task reliably starting a motorcycle down 30f degree. which still doesn't leave enough margin for error for an adventure bike in case one should be using heated gear combined with a short ride. By doubling AH rating with Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) 540 cranking amps. it barely breaks a sweat starting R80G/S.

for the short trip to Elgin Kansas. predicted low temp was 40f + so starting R80G/S was not even a concern with Shorai LFX21 AH. Data on how charging system fared with 14.5v voltage regulator was what I was after. Just so happens due to high wind conditions, average speed for 100+ miles was much lower than normal highway speeds. ended up with ending resting voltage of 13.4v after 100+ miles. fully charged resting is 13.7v after charge dissipates from 14.5v with higher regulator.

got a trip planned soon ... R80G/S down to Florida from Tulsa, OK with Shorai 36 AH (pb eq) and 14.5v voltage regulator for a proper shake out ride. while SYCL 2.3 AH is the ideal battery for race bikes. it'd make an excellent backup battery for Adventure bikes too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post

my methodology is simple ... carefully and accurately track all the metrics that matter. then as problems shows itself. use the data to determine why/if problems are happening. if need be drill in to find a solution.

if I can use LiFePO4 battery in an adventure bike successfully. then it's pretty safe to say li-ion is ready for prime time.

this picture shows the HUGE weight/size difference between a 14lb BMW Gel battery vs a SCYL 2.3AH with 4x A123 cells at 12oz. ..... now I would not consider using a 2.3AH battery in an adventure bike. but saving 13lb+ in a race bike is substantial!!

come to think of it... this little powerhouse SYCL battery would make an excellent backup battery for an adventure bike without a kickstarter.



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Old 03-08-2012, 07:26 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
I have the same results Anorak, and have a 12-cell under the truck seat just for emergencies... But there is factor here that allows that great performance in cars and it is usually the great starter reduction gearing in cars with that super large ring gear on the flywheel/torque converter area, and also the efficiency of the system in general with the nice grounding and fat cable usually a miniumum of 4 awg and the starters also seem very efficient. Some bikes also have great starter reduction gear though it varies alot and the efficiency of the starter plays a part too... for example our 4-cell starts the GSXR 750 fine... yet it is slower to turn over the CBR 600.... it turns out the CBR has not as good starter reduction gearing and also a starter that isn't as efficient.

Interesting fact----
I heard on the new super killer Ducati Superbike they did some engine efficiency work to allow for easier turn over so they could use a much smaller battery than normal... so the bike is able to use a smaller battery to achieve the good starting results by making the engine easier to turn over on the start attemp,t where-as normally twins are a harder turn-over than inline 4 cylinders....

I guess the point is just that it not just the battery but the vehicle also that can make for a harder start...
And speaking of Ducati's, my 998R is a BEAST to turn over but my 999R & Aprilia spin over without breaking a sweat!
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:58 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Hey Cy and the hard core adventure riders...

I'm not understanding something, most likely because I'm not an Adventure Rider...but it seems sort of obvoius...

I keep seeing testing of voltage, an comments about starting in cold weather and questions, if Lifepo4 can handle a trip around the world. But what I'm not getting is that you have a technology that due to its extreme small size and high power would allow for a redundant battery system, yet I don't see anyone speaking on that...

If I was going into the deep places of Africa or where ever I would take two 12-Cells or a 12 and an 8 and laugh away that day knowing I have a system an a back-up. I would want security...Though I preach about getting the most power you can having a redundant system would trump that and provide for the massive power and amp hours if I needed itplus give security . Keep in mind the battery that sits doing nothing is not going to lose voltage/energy during the whole adventure... but if some trouble should start just a have a quick parallel connection for starting in the most freezing of weather at 720 Cranking amps and laugh at Jack Frost or just a back up source of power for a GPS...
I quess I come to this from a different perspective than some of the younger ADV riders. I wouldn't take a spare battery on a bike trip. I spend a lot of time, money, energy, blood, sweat(grins, no tears), planning so I don't have to take any "unnessary" stuff. When I started doing this in the early '70's, We rodeTrials bikes(with camping gear) all over the Lake City, Silverton, Ouray, Teluride CO area. Lots of jeep trails, single tracks and game trails. Then went to the XR/XL's with those little batteries that would fit in the palm of your hand and when they went dead we didn't even replace them. Never did figure out what they were for. Now we've got the KLR type bikes with no kicker(I really miss the kicker back up like on your old BMW cy). You can always jump start, push, pull or bump start most of these bikes if you have to. The reason I"m following you guys on this thread is it would be nice to eliminate that nasty sulfuric acid and of course the weight. BTW having to pick up one of those giant "800lb ADVbikes" in the back country is a little more adventure than I can handle. When you get past 60 the first rule is "DON"T FALL !!! Still do it but with a little more focus.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:35 PM   #143
JoelWisman
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My two cents:

Some of the discussion about lead/acid batteries here has been about lead acid batteries "loosing capacity" as it gets colder and becoming "less efficient".

This is true depending on how you define the words, but I think it is probably giving people not heavily educated in batteries the wrong impression.

No battery chemistry I can think of looses amp hour capacity with lower temperatures. What does happen is the battery looses the capacity to support a given electrical demand continuously without falling below a specific terminal voltage.

In other words, if you leave your headlight on without the engine running and it is super cold, fairly rapidly the sluggish chemical reactions in a lead/acid battery will lag and your bike won't start up long before the actual amp hours of the battery are depleted.

Now, turn the key back off, wait 20 minutes for the cold sluggish chemical reactions to ketch back up, flip the key back on, and that capacity less whatever was withdrawn is still there and you can fire the bike right up.

Of course if you leave the key on again or have to crank for a long time and you will have to rest the lead/acid battery again before it can start the bike.


Same thing with the use of the word "efficiency" It is being used in a way that implies that the battery looses ultimate capacity with temperature. It does not, it simply looses efficiency at keeping up with continuous demand. The lead/acid battery converts chemical energy to electrical energy just as efficiently when cold as hot. Thats to say, the losses when converting are nearly the same at different temperatures, it is simply not as efficiently at doing it quickly.


CCA as it has always been defined is only somewhat applicable to modern adventure motorcycles. CCA IS the minimum number of amps the battery will flow at a temperature of 0 F for 30 consecutive seconds without falling below a terminal voltage of 7.2. This is kinda sorta applicable to an R80GS, though I don't know anyone that would crank an R80GS for 30 consecutive seconds, but 7.2 terminal volts is not relevant to more modern fuel injected bikes because the computer checks out from low voltage long before that threshold is reached.

I think pulse amps for 5 seconds is far more relevant at differing temperatures with rest times between attempts to start. With anything other then a diesel this tends to be how people attempt to start an engine and rightfully so.

The 5 second pulse capacity of lead acid batteries is very good, even at oh my god cold.

What isn't so good and screws many people that ride in extremes is just how much more current is required to crank over a super cold engine. I for instance have ridden in minus 40 F, and don't even bat an eyelash when it is merely minus 5 F.

My capo takes 1mS peaks of 340 amps and a 3 second average of 259 amps to start at minus 5 F. The computer remains conscious down to 8.9 battery terminal volts but it, the starter and ignition system would sure like more.

Shorais application chart for batteries is a bad joke, as is their Q&A. They now list the LFX21 as recommended to start the BMW F800GS, up from the LFX14 they used to list. I suspect this reflects that they have noticed that F800GS riders are adventuring into temperature extremes and possibly they are noticing battery failures due to imbalance that is not self equalizing at the F800GSs anemic 13.8 volt charging regulation, but whatever.

They also currently list the LFX 14 for the Aprilia Caponord. This is comedy. The F800GS on it's worse day at the north pole is easier to crank and starts quicker then The Capo in a southern californian summer.

In Shorais FAQ section they state this:

"In any case, CCA ratings aren't about actually drawing that much current from a battery. The typical vehicle which uses a 200A CCA-rated battery, for example, will only draw 45A~80A from the battery. What the CCA rating really intends to convey is how much voltage will be delivered."

What planet are the guys writing Shorais web site from??? I may be willing to buy one of Shorais batteries, but if I do it will be despite the bull they are shoveling on their web site.

45A-80A from a bike with a 200 CCA battery? Get real. The BMW R1200GS, F800GS, ST, S, R, K1300S, Aprilia Shiver Caponord, and Falco all take a 200CCA battery. The shiver is pretty good only needing about a 110 amp 3 second average to start, on a warm summer day but the rest of them are in the 130 amp range or more on a warm day, more when cold.

I am much more pleased with Antigravity, assuming these made up "pbeq" numbers hold any stock between manufactures, as they list a 12 cell for standard duty on the BMW F8 and R12GS as well as Caponord and 16 cell for high power.

Ballistic is recommending an 8 cell for the Caponord, R1200GS, F800GS and a 12 cell for the R80GS. What??? You can kick start the R80GS! I have started R80GS with a 6 volt battery in the field :) It was very warm but thats a bike that doesn't need much terminal voltage to fire.

P.S. Shorai, Ballistic, Your application charts are flawed, Yours too AntiGravity, though just in model years shown, your recommendations seem better. I have screen captures from my scope while measuring cranking amps with a shunt rather then a clamp that gets mislead by strong magnetic fields from the starter and solenoid. I have them for almost everything BMW currently makes as well as Aprilia and most go Guzzi.

I have paperless recorder charts of many of these bikes stock voltage regulator behaviors and a little knowledge too, such as, the R1200GS has an actual pinion that gets shoved into a flywheel as well as a computer that disconnects the starter below 9.8 volts for 100 ms. Cranking it into low voltage makes BMW dealers happy because over time it wastes the flywheel teeth and allows us to bill for pulling the tranny, but it will loose you customers when we explain your fancy but too small battery is responsible.

The Caponord comes complete with an electrical system only the French, Italians, or Brits could design. Voltage drop through the pathetically small solenoid and super long small gauge starter cable is horrible.

The F800GS R/R is a mistake. Voltage is set as if charging a gel battery. Heck, even the BMW's that actually come with a gel battery have a higher charging voltage then The F8. This and slight leakage differences between cells may be killing your batteries. I have a Shorai from F8 duty with 45% imbalance and many stories on the web of sudden death of Shorai batteries in this bike.

Knowledge and screen captures are free to whatever manufacture wants it out of goodwill to the motorcycle community. But all of your application charts are terribly flawed, and recommended battery sizes of at the least Shorai and Ballistic are crazy. Once again, AntiGravity, you seem better with the recommendations.

Alright, long random post. I will finish with this. We need some standardized test data to find differences between brands as well as some specific info for the particulars of the adventure community.

This thread has some good info, but what a lithium battery will do in an R80GS with a modified charging system is good to know but does not tell us much about the remainder of the field. An R80GS is super cool and I envy you _cy_, but that has to be one of the retest adventure bikes still in use on this planet and bares little resemblance to the charging and starting characteristics of more modern bikes.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:46 PM   #144
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2bold I agree, weight sucks as does complexity and I'd rather get it right then need redundancy, but....

For the F800GS and F800GS, two common adventure bikes... They have a basic module called a ZFE that controls power all over the bike and replaces a shit load or relays and fuses.

It is high tech, reduces weight, and destroys batteries. On occasion, the super smart ZFE glitches and fails to shut down when you turn off the key, which just sends a logic signal to the ZFE.

When this happens, there is no outward sign, but depending in what stage the shut down cycle glitches, the bike draws between 0.2 amps and 2.3 amps until the battery is dead dead, as in terminal voltage below 2 volts.

Lead acid batteries hate this, but the better ones can be recovered with a small booster battery and some aggressive charging. I doubt lithium batteries stand the remotest chance of recovery but could be wrong.

On the F8, incidence of the ZFE hanging is in the order of once or twice a year. The R1200GS is closer to once every two years, but regardless, if this happens while you happen to be crossing a desert... You will need an extra power source, or at least a solar panel with a hot charger to force current thought your super sulfated lead/acid battery.

A kick starter on a simpler bike would be better, but it is not the path most of humanity is taking so I think dual power systems, or at least a solar charger and discussion of what batteries can be recovered from stone dead is in order.
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Old 03-08-2012, 04:48 PM   #145
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Nice post Joel! I'm not as technically savvy as CY but I will post up some of the data on the Antigravity battery in my SE and as soon as I place the order I'll be getting a few more for some of the other bikes in my shop.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:00 PM   #146
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I'm guessing that most of the rest of the world doesn't know about this ZFE module glitch on the BMWs or they wouldn't buy one, unless there's a fix. That's why we keep changing bikes...looking for a bike that fits and performs the tasks at hand, with a minimum of complications. Same with batteries.
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Lead acid batteries hate this, but the better ones can be recovered with a small booster battery and some aggressive charging. I doubt lithium batteries stand the remotest chance of recovery but could be wrong.
A123 says you can cycle their cells to 100% depth of discharge repeatedly.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:16 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Hey Cy and the hard core adventure riders...

I'm not understanding something, most likely because I'm not an Adventure Rider...but it seems sort of obvoius...

I keep seeing testing of voltage, an comments about starting in cold weather and questions, if Lifepo4 can handle a trip around the world. But what I'm not getting is that you have a technology that due to its extreme small size and high power would allow for a redundant battery system, yet I don't see anyone speaking on that...

If I was going into the deep places of Africa or where ever I would take two 12-Cells or a 12 and an 8 and laugh away that day knowing I have a system an a back-up. I would want security...Though I preach about getting the most power you can having a redundant system would trump that and provide for the massive power and amp hours if I needed itplus give security . Keep in mind the battery that sits doing nothing is not going to lose voltage/energy during the whole adventure... but if some trouble should start just a have a quick parallel connection for starting in the most freezing of weather at 720 Cranking amps and laugh at Jack Frost or just a back up source of power for a GPS...
Hey Scott, it turned in to one of those weeks, so I'll give you a call tomorrow.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:27 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
A123 says you can cycle their cells to 100% depth of discharge repeatedly.
yes but what A123 considers to be 100% depth of discharge is not low as battery can go. Joel is right on this. what he is referring to is a glitch that causes up to a 2.3 amp discharge. which will drain battery down way below 100% discharged condition into likely unrecoverable. using Shorai's chart 100% discharge would be 9.2v.


_cy_ screwed with this post 03-08-2012 at 10:39 PM
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #150
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
A123 says you can cycle their cells to 100% depth of discharge repeatedly.
From Ballistics FAQ:
"What happens if I discharge my Ballistic Performance Components Battery?
One of the primary benefits of lithium ferrous phosphate batteries is that they discharge at an incredibly slow rate (10% per year of static use) so it is very hard to discharge the battery in a conventional application with an on board charging system. If for some reason you discharge your Ballistic Performance Components Battery the best thing to do is to recharge it as soon as possible. You should not allow the battery to discharge below 9.0Volts, as this can damage the cells. If the battery is drained below 6.0Volts then the battery is considered to be discharged beyond its capacity and it should be discarded according to local land fill regulations."


From Shorais FAQ:
"Do not allow the resting voltage to fall below 12.86V" which equates with 80% DOD,


From Antigravitys FAQ:
"You can damage the battery if you let it drain to below 10v volts. This is true of ANY battery, lead/acid or lithium. Draining a battery to this level will damage the battery cells. This is not a concern if you remember to turn off your ignition, or turn off any accessories that are not ignition switched. You should also make sure your vehicle does not have an “parasitic drain” or “short circuit”. A “parasitic drain” is something like an accessory that is pulling energy from the battery even though the ignition is “off”… Sometimes a short can also be the cause of a drain on the battery though all accessories are “off”."


Grant it, they are a different chemistry, but I have a lithium laptop and heated vest battery that both have protection circuits that shut the battery down permanently once a certain critically low voltage is reached. As it happens, I temporarily bypassed the low voltage circuit to get enough voltage in the heated vest battery to charge it normally right now.

This picture is where I am charging it, with good reason.

Li-ion

I am not doubting that A123 said that, but am doubting everything manufactures of lithium batteries are saying at the moment because there is so much contradiction!

Does anyone wish to test if you can drain a LiFePo4 powersports battery to a terminal voltage of 3 volts and bring it back AND have it not catch fire during recharging?
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