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Old 04-13-2012, 04:32 PM   #196
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
I don't think you do need a BMS for LiFePO4 batteries for over voltage or balance as long as you don't beet them up. You may or may not need one for under voltage, but it would be nice.

Short circuit protection, not really. It is just like with a lead acid battery. bad things happen when you short them, but not THAT bad.

Interestingly what I am finding is that the pouch cell batteries, or at least the Shorai seem to be more finicky as far as getting out of balance, venting when loaded heavy, and dying instantly when run too low or reversed.

I have now killed 3 Shorai batteries and don't think anyone is going to be sending me any more lol.

Doing the exact same thing the battery with A123 cells is still charging along merrily.
sorry about taking so long to respond... been busy doing a bit of digging on if LiFePO4 cells in series actually will self balance during charging.

conclusion after communicating with several folks with a lot deeper Lithium ion experience than myself is.... LiFePO4 cells in series will not self balance during charge. what happens is the cells that charge to full first will keep on raising in volts until venting occurs. while it's true that LiFePO4's venting event is less dramatic. still bad things will happen if a LiFePO4 battery is allowed charge continuously at voltage higher than 3.65v per cell.

how ever LiFePO4 cells in series will self balance ... if battery is subjected to a series of discharge/charge cycles. if one is faced with an out of balanced LiFePO4 battery.... procedure to attempt recovery is: charge battery to 14.4v, then discharge to 13.2v range. then charge back up again. what happens is ... discharging will scrub off more amps from higher charged cells than weaker cells. effectively balancing battery. this procedure may or may not work depending on how badly discharge battery is. the other alternative is to charge battery with a charger with balancing capabilities.

@joel ... your test to destruction with the three Shorai batteries would be understandable. if in normal use of battery on a motorcycle, battery would be also subject to that exact scenario.

you may run a starter on a motorcycle for 30 seconds continuous in your shop ... but I've NEVER in 20+ years of being around motorcycles and cars have ever seen or heard of anyone subjecting their starter to 30 second continuous runs. Once a bike is in a shop... ALL well equipped shops will have jumper cables with standby batteries to do continuous cranks if tech so desires.

taking 3 brand new Shorai batteries then testing to destruction ... by subjecting them to tests that will NEVER happen in real life ... proves little to nothing.

then doing high drain tests on used batteries with a questionable history... cannot help but result in tests that are probably bogus.

this is the reason why I've carefully documented all my discharge tests with the two new Shorai batteries in my possession. one can duplicate exactly what and why tests were done. I've flogged the LFX 21 on my R80G/S with multiple discharge tests and until I got bored with doing em. Shorai LFX 21 exceeded each and every expectation. the LFX 36 naturally should be able to do the same with more reserve amp hour.

what I didn't do is test to destruction like you did. Now if in real life a bike rider would have a need to discharge at 200 amp for 30 seconds continuous. that's exactly what I would be doing.

what I do agree with you is Shorai's method of rating pb eq is a bunch of BS. I don't agree with Shorai's rating bump of 3x over actual amp hour. I've stated that right from the git go. Amp hour is amp hour... there is no substitute.

IMHO if one needs to do sustained 200 amp 30 second discharges.... the battery needs to be large enough to sustain those loads. my inclination is to take Shorai's CCA rating and cut it in half. so LFX 21's 310 CCA rating should be able to sustain 155 amp continuous for 30 seconds. taking LFX 36's 500+ CCA rating by half indicates LFX 36 should have no problems sustaining 200amp loads for 30 seconds continuous.

it's not fair taking a 6 amp hour battery, then expecting it to sustain a 200 amp load for 30 seconds. my guess is more like 135 amp for 30 seconds continuous is closer to what a LFX 18 can sustain. but above is all hypothetical for 99.99% of all bike riders will not be subjecting their battery to 200amp loads for 30 seconds continuously. it needs to be pointed out just because LFX 21 cannot sustain 200 amp for 30 seconds, doesn't mean it cannot deliver 200 amp for starting. I've flogged FLX 21 with 200amp draws with no problems. LFX 21 delivered more than enough power to do multiple cold starts requiring 200 amp draws for 5-6 seconds.

more to come on this.... I've also been doing a bit more testing on balance charging with low amp trickle chargers and the like. since I have not opened up my Shorai batteries ... don't know for sure. but these two Shorai batteries that I have sure act like they are internally balanced. all indications are that after each cell reaches full charge something is bleeding off current very similar to if each cell has a balancing circuit attached. if true, this would explain perfectly why you didn't experience cell balancing with Shorai until about 14.4v was reached.

cylindrical cells like A123 have certain advantages and disadvantages. cylindrical cells have inherent support structures allowing stronger internal contacts. those support structures also take up space. prismatic cells are more space efficient.

A123 or similar 26650 cells (26mm x 650mm) form is currently the highest production LiFePO4 cells in the world due to use in battery powered tools. just like 18650 lithium cobalt cells were at one time the highest production li-ion cells due to use in Laptops.

both 18650 lithium cobalt cells years ago and today 26650 in LiFePO4 enjoy the latest improvement as engineering incorporates advancements into latest production. it's only natural most R&D effort be invested in the cells with most $$$ sales potential.

disadvantage of A123 cylindrical cells is the number that it take to make up a motorcycle battery. one A123 cell is rated at 2.3amp... a four cells in series makes a 2.3 AH motorcycle battery.

it takes 16 cells in 4x (parallel) x 4x in series to make a 9.2 AH A123 based motorcycle battery. that's 16 individual cells to keep in balance. this is where prismatic cells with larger amp hour have an advantage. the equivalent 9 AH LiFePO4 prismatic cell will still use 4 cell in series. but those cells are rated for 9 amp hours each. prismatic cells cal be mfg to very large sizes to 20 amp hour + with no problems. with 20 cell and 24 cell LiFePO4 batteries, potential problems of keeping cells in balance goes up, especially as cells age.

LiFePO4 cells in series will not self balance during charging. cells that reaches full charge first will keep raising in volts until overheating with venting occurs.

weak point of prismatic cells, which is also it's strong point. which is the lack of support structure. prismatic cells can be made into a verity of shapes utilizing every cubic inch of space. this lack of support structure means internal connectors are inherently not strong as cylindrical cells.

prismatic LiFePO4 and cylindrical A123 cells both have their advantage and disadvantages.

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-14-2012 at 04:21 AM
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #197
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Cy,

As I've always said I appreciate you are trying to bring info about the new technology to consumers,but after reading many of your posts I'm finding it difficult to have buy in, and not think you are sort of a little biased...There have been many statements that are quite inaccurate, yet you are posting as if they are in fact true.... But the particular statement below really hit home because it is so inaccurate and may lead people to believe your statement is true. I think you may need to start double checking your facts before stating them.

Cy, you stated this.... "cylindrical cells like A123 have certain advantages and disadvantages. cylindrical cells have inherent support structures allowing stronger internal contacts. those support structures also take up space. prismatic cells are more space efficient."



I'm not sure why you made this statement, but maybe you are getting your information from a Shorai Representative and not double checking it. Prismatic are not more space efficient then cylindric at the the powersports battery arena at all.. and I think we are talking about motorcycle batteries in this thread. Electric cars and big battery system yes... but once again lets stick with powersports/motorcycles

A123 System Cylindrics are in fact a much smaller format when used for powersports batteries and offer MORE power than the Shorai- Prismatic by quite a bit. This is proven over our complete Antigravity line of batteries.... We offer a much smaller more powerful battery than Shorai with equal or better Amp Hours at every step in our battery lineup. We also offer direct fit exact OEM models with A123 that don't need foam like Shorai's to make them fit...

Here are some examples of size...the Antigravity AG401 is fully HALF the size of the smallest battery Shorai offers yet is roughly as powerful and has as many Ah... but HALF the size. but as we go up in size our power starts to really pull away what Shorai offers...

If you go to our 8-Cell battery, which is still SMALLER than the smallest Shorai, it puts out almost DOUBLE the cranking power of their battery with a similar ACTUAL Amp Hour capacity....

If you go up to our 16 Cell at 480 Cranking amps you have a battery that is still quite a bit smaller than the Shorai LFX18 and LFX 21 but utterly decimates them wit by DOUBLE the cranking power of the LFX18 and over 165 more Cranking Amps than the LFX 21 and similar if not better Amp Hour rating...

If you go to our Antigravity YTX12-20 compared to the Shorai LFX36 you would find Antigravity A123 based battery that is is way smaller at 1" LESS long, 1.25 inches LESS in height, and the SAME width yet has 60 more Cranking Amps.... All in a package that MUCH smaller and actually would fit into the stock YTX12 BMW Battery tray while the Shorai would not come close to fitting... And our weighs less to top it off..

So as unbiased tester please explain how you come to making a statement that the A123 based batteries takes up more space when they actually put our MUCH more power and equivelent Amp hours in a smaller package? Did you ever check out size comparisons of Shorai vs. other manufatures such as Antigravity? Have you relayed to the readers The fact is the A123 is much more energy dense than the Prismatic...

Regards,

Scott
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:59 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Cy,

As I've always said I appreciate you are trying to bring info about the new technology to consumers,but after reading many of your posts I'm finding it difficult to have buy in, and not think you are sort of a little biased...There have been many statements that are quite inaccurate, yet you are posting as if they are in fact true.... But the particular statement below really hit home because it is so inaccurate and may lead people to believe your statement is true. I think you may need to start double checking your facts before stating them.

Cy, you stated this.... "cylindrical cells like A123 have certain advantages and disadvantages. cylindrical cells have inherent support structures allowing stronger internal contacts. those support structures also take up space. prismatic cells are more space efficient."



I'm not sure why you made this statement, but maybe you are getting your information from a Shorai Representative and not double checking it. Prismatic are not more space efficient then cylindric at the the powersports battery arena at all.. and I think we are talking about motorcycle batteries in this thread. Electric cars and big battery system yes... but once again lets stick with powersports/motorcycles

A123 System Cylindrics are in fact a much smaller format when used for powersports batteries and offer MORE power than the Shorai- Prismatic by quite a bit. This is proven over our complete Antigravity line of batteries.... We offer a much smaller more powerful battery than Shorai with equal or better Amp Hours at every step in our battery lineup. We also offer direct fit exact OEM models with A123 that don't need foam like Shorai's to make them fit...

Here are some examples of size...the Antigravity AG401 is fully HALF the size of the smallest battery Shorai offers yet is roughly as powerful and has as many Ah... but HALF the size. but as we go up in size our power starts to really pull away what Shorai offers...

If you go to our 8-Cell battery, which is still SMALLER than the smallest Shorai, it puts out almost DOUBLE the cranking power of their battery with a similar ACTUAL Amp Hour capacity....

If you go up to our 16 Cell at 480 Cranking amps you have a battery that is still quite a bit smaller than the Shorai LFX18 and LFX 21 but utterly decimates them wit by DOUBLE the cranking power of the LFX18 and over 165 more Cranking Amps than the LFX 21 and similar if not better Amp Hour rating...

If you go to our Antigravity YTX12-20 compared to the Shorai LFX36 you would find Antigravity A123 based battery that is is way smaller at 1" LESS long, 1.25 inches LESS in height, and the SAME width yet has 60 more Cranking Amps.... All in a package that MUCH smaller and actually would fit into the stock YTX12 BMW Battery tray while the Shorai would not come close to fitting... And our weighs less to top it off..

So as unbiased tester please explain how you come to making a statement that the A123 based batteries takes up more space when they actually put our MUCH more power and equivelent Amp hours in a smaller package? Did you ever check out size comparisons of Shorai vs. other manufatures such as Antigravity? Have you relayed to the readers The fact is the A123 is much more energy dense than the Prismatic...

Regards,

Scott
my comments are right on the money ... my goal was and still is to give an unbiased report.
I've made no promises to Shorai or anyone else on how my testing will progress.

in fairness to all.... I will not subject batteries to conditions that a normal user will not subject their batteries to. neither will I not publish a batteries' failure not to perform under condition normally experienced by a motorcycle user.

if I've made an error ... will be the first to stand corrected. but generally are pretty darn careful before making statements.

very easy to explain why I posted that cylindrical cell's hard structure takes up more space than a prismatic cell. never made a claim that motorcycle batteries using A123 are larger than Motorcycle batteries using prismatic cells or that prismatic cells have higher energy density.

pure numbers says most produced is 26650 A123 style cells used in power tools. don't have exact ratio from cylindrical 26650 A123 style cells to prismatic cells. but it's hugely in favor of A123 style cells. note A123 is not the only mfg for LiFePO4 26650 cells.

A123 cells are produced in huge numbers because LOTS of folks are buying lithium power tools. Huge economical incentives exist to produce superior 26650 cells. this is why advancements like energy density, increase in number of charge cycles occurs first in 26650 cells.

if one examines cylindrical cells, easy to see a portion of bulk in 26650 cell is liner material. cylindrical cell support structure makes up a substantial part of any cylindrical cell.

drawback to cylindrical 26650 cells is large number of cells needed to make up higher amp hour batteries needed for motorcycles. 26650 LiFePO4 cells are rated for 2.3 amp hours. so a 9.2 AH battery requires 16 cells. larger number of cells mean greater chance of cells going out of balance. especially as cells age. one can very carefully match capacities of cells being spot welded together. but as cells age ... they may or may not degrade at same rates as companion cells.

a 16 cell battery will more likely go out of balance vs a 4 cell battery. LiFePO4 cells in series will not self balance itself during charge. an intelligent charger with balance capabilities used for maintenance would be a good idea with LiFePO4 batteries with large number of cells.

prismatic cells use different sizes to achieve different amp hour. so a 6 AH prismatic uses 4 cell in series. same as 12 amp hour which also use four cells in series. a 20 amp hour still uses 4 cells in series... you get the idea.

cylindrical cells are inherently stiffer due to support structure. so internal connectors can more easily made support larger current flow without damage. 26650 cells have a large contact area available to spot weld beefy metal strips that can support huge currents without damage. vs prismatic cell's contact surface available to connect cells in series are structurally less rigid.

------------------

from highly respected Cadex corp.

The pouch cell concept makes the most efficient use of available space and achieves a packaging efficiency of 90 to 95 percent, the highest among battery packs. Because of the absence of a metal can, the pouch pack has a lower weight. No standardized pouch cells exist, but rather, each manufacturer builds to a special application.

Figure 2: The pouch cell.
The pouch cell offers a simple, flexible and lightweight solution to battery design. This new concept has not yet fully matured and the manufacturing costs are still high.
Cadex Electronics Inc.
At the present time, the pouch cell is more expensive to manufacture than the cylindrical architecture and the reliability has not been fully proven. The energy density and load current are slightly lower than that of conventional cell designs. The cycle life in everyday applications is not well documented but is, at present, less than that of the Li‑ion system with cylindrical cell design.
A critical issue with the pouch cell is swelling, which occurs when gas is generated during charging or discharging. Battery manufacturers insist that Li‑ion or Polymer cells do not generate gas if properly formatted, are charged at the correct current and are kept within allotted voltage levels. When designing the protective housing for a pouch cell, some provision for swelling must be taken into account. To alleviate the swelling issue when using multiple cells, it is best not to stack pouch cells, but lay them flat side-by-side.
The pouch cell is highly sensitive to twisting. Point pressure must also be avoided. The protective housing must be designed to safeguard the cell from mechanical stress.

http://www.buchmann.ca/Article6-Page1.asp
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:07 PM   #199
Anorak
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_cy_, which rechargeable power tool manufacturers currently use A123 cells?
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:51 PM   #200
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
sorry about taking so long to respond... been busy doing a bit of digging on if LiFePO4 cells in series actually will self balance during charging.

conclusion after communicating with several folks with a lot deeper Lithium ion experience than myself is.... LiFePO4 cells in series will not self balance during charge. what happens is the cells that charge to full first will keep on raising in volts until venting occurs. while it's true that LiFePO4's venting event is less dramatic. still bad things will happen if a LiFePO4 battery is allowed charge continuously at voltage higher than 3.65v per cell.
Agreed, but there is variance. Over 3.65 volts per cell continuously is bad for all LiFePO4 chemistry as it rapidly ages the battery. Sudden catastrophic failure does not occur till substantially higher voltage, and here, things are not equal. Pouch cells such as Shorai use are not contained in a pressure vessel. As such, these pouch cells will vent electrolyte quite easily during overcharge or heavy current demand.

On the current side, I had a brand new Shorai LFX21 venting in just 14 seconds at a 200 amp load. The LFX21 is a 7 amp hour battery that Shorai rates 21 AH PBEQ 315 CCA PBEQ.

In contrast, not only did I subject the Antigravity YTX12-16 to a 30 second 200 amp discharge, I hit it with a 480 amp discharge for 15 seconds, all with zero venting confirmed with gas detector, lack of audible hissing, and since the Antigravity batteries are gas tight as apposed to the Shorai which is not even water resistant, by observing zero bulging of the battery case. The Antigravity YTX12-16 is a 9.2 amp hour battery that Antigravity rates 15 AH PBEQ and 480 CCA PBEQ.

Do the math. The Shorai vented at 14 seconds of 63% of CCA rating.
The Antigravity did NOT vent at 15 seconds of 100% of CCA rating, nor did it vent at 30 seconds of 41%
CCA load.
In a demanding environment, I am convinced that a pressure vessel around the cell is our friend :)

On the overcharging side, I have yet to test, but will be. Overcharge is a common occurrence. Not so much with the rare for motorcycle external wound rotor alternator you have on the R80, but common for the PM rotor, shunt regulated alternators common to most bikes as the typical failure mode for the shunt regulator is for the shunt to burn open leaving the battery and bike exposed to full charging output till the rider notices or bike shuts down on its own.

I don't yet know the real world performance of cylindric cell LiFePO4 batteries under these conditions, but I am sure they will spew their guts out at some point, however it seems intuitive that a pouch cell will fail much quicker owing to no pressure vessels to keep the guts where they belong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
how ever LiFePO4 cells in series will self balance ... if battery is subjected to a series of discharge/charge cycles. if one is faced with an out of balanced LiFePO4 battery.... procedure to attempt recovery is: charge battery to 14.4v, then discharge to 13.2v range. then charge back up again. what happens is ... discharging will scrub off more amps from higher charged cells than weaker cells. effectively balancing battery. this procedure may or may not work depending on how badly discharge battery is. the other alternative is to charge battery with a charger with balancing capabilities.
"discharging will scrub off more amps from higher charged cells than weaker cells". This does not make sense. If we were talking parallel cells, sure, they will balance this way, but for series, how could we possibly have more current flow through one cell then another?

It is series cells we are talking about. If one cell has a higher current flow then another when all the cells are in connected in series, where are those extra electrons going, outer space?

I think your experts are confused on this point because their thinking defies electrical principals that are as firm as laws of the universe.

In a series arrangement, the only way for any chemistry to balance, lacking a BMS, is at the very top during mild overcharging or at the very bottom.

At the very bottom, a cell will reverse which with LiFePO4 will spell instant and permanent death. At the top, both Shorai and A123 based batteries such as Antigravity or ballistic will begin a slow and mild balancing stage.

After much reading, this is not actually due to overcharge voltage as inefficiencies of the chemistry in converting electrical to chemical charge near fully charged.

In a nut shell. Most LiFePO4 cells are above 95% efficient at converting charge in the 20%-90% charged cell, but only 80% efficient efficient for the final 10% to fully charged. Since we are talking seriesed cells here, the current through all cells will always be exactly equal, however the cells at a lower state of charge will be converting that current flow to chemical charge more efficiently then the higher charged cells.

This effect is mild and not the way I would choose to balance a battery, BUT is likely plenty good to keep a battery from going out of balance in the first place.

Once again, there are differences between the Shorai and Antigravity batteries I tested that in simple terms means the Antigravity has a much stronger tendency to balance at a lower charging voltage then the Shorai.

I did not call experts for this conclusion as quite frankly, the experts I called regarding other LiFePO4 things all gave conflicting statements!

What I did was measure this effect exhaustively and methodically, recorded myself doing such and posted it to my youtube so others can repeat my experiments in a form of peer review.

I would consider this more conclusive then expert statements as it is something you can duplicate and see with your own eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
@joel ... your test to destruction with the three Shorai batteries would be understandable. if in normal use of battery on a motorcycle, battery would be also subject to that exact scenario.

you may run a starter on a motorcycle for 30 seconds continuous in your shop ... but I've NEVER in 20+ years of being around motorcycles and cars have ever seen or heard of anyone subjecting their starter to 30 second continuous runs. Once a bike is in a shop... ALL well equipped shops will have jumper cables with standby batteries to do continuous cranks if tech so desires.

taking 3 brand new Shorai batteries then testing to destruction ... by subjecting them to tests that will NEVER happen in real life ... proves little to nothing.

then doing high drain tests on used batteries with a questionable history... cannot help but result in tests that are probably bogus.
_cy_ I appreciate your gentle tests of LiFePO4 use in an undemanding motorcycle in top condition on first world pavement and have read through them from start to finish, but I am not testing for when everything is hunky-dory, nor do I wish to wait 5 years to find out if LiFePO4 lasts as long as lead acid in gentle use.

I am DELIBERATELY subjecting batteries to very harsh use to find out which hold up the best when things are not perfect.

I have supported numerous riders on dream round-the-world rides and have concluded the following: Things go wrong in the least desirable of places.

The rider I supported on a cross Asia trip had his F800GS crap out in Tibet at a very high elevation. Fuel he got out of a 55 gallon drum was the culprit, but it took a lot of cranking to figure this out AND get fresh fuel to the injectors.

The rider I supported who broke down in some (can't remember which) African nation on his F650GS had a fuel pump fail. Once again it took considerable cranking and repeated restarts for him to limp to where he could mod a Toyota fuel pump into his tank.

The rider I supported who broke down in the Russian wilderness who lost his stator had to use his battery as a constant loss power source between charges on farm manual chargers I didn't even know existed.

The numerous riders of modern BMW's who have had fuel injectors stick owing to water contaminated ethanol induced corrosion could have kept riding if their starting battery would have just held the cranking voltage 1 volt higher.

The list goes on and on because I have been at this for 25 years professionally, but as the saying goes, "shit happens", and though I find your data useful, battery performance under demanding conditions is as relevant to me if not more then battery performance on sunny days with flawless bikes, well, windy days too I guess :)


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
this is the reason why I've carefully documented all my discharge tests with the two new Shorai batteries in my possession. one can duplicate exactly what and why tests were done. I've flogged the LFX 21 on my R80G/S with multiple discharge tests and until I got bored with doing em. Shorai LFX 21 exceeded each and every expectation. the LFX 36 naturally should be able to do the same with more reserve amp hour.

what I didn't do is test to destruction like you did. Now if in real life a bike rider would have a need to discharge at 200 amp for 30 seconds continuous. that's exactly what I would be doing.
You may have missed it, but only one of the Shorai batteries I tested to destruction was used, the other two were new.

I have carefully documented and video recorded every test.

The tests were not deliberately destructive, it just turned out 3 of the Shorais failed during the course of testing which lead me to suspend Shorai testing as I promised to keep the other Shorai battery usable.


what is ABSOLUTELY relevant in these tests that turned out to be destructive to Shorai is that I tested each battery PRECISELY the same under EXACTLY the same conditions, one after the other.

A new Shorai LFX 18 and LFX27 as well as a couple of week old used LFX21 all failed catastrophically in tests that a 2 year old lead/acid Yuasa YTX12, 4 month old Deka ETX 14, and Antigravity YTX12-16 all passed.

Not only this, but in tests subsequent to the load tests, the Shorai LFX18 and 21 both performed worse at short cranking sessions on my Aprilia Caponord at moderate temperatures then even the 2 year old 180 CCA rated Yuasa.

The LFX27 bested the 2 year old Yuasa ETX12, but was bested by the $75 Deka ETX14 and Obliterated by the Antigravity YTX12-16.

I'm not sure how anyone could conclude these tests are "meaningless" when they are done side by side, exactly the same and precisely duplicatable by anyone and 4 batteries of Shorai brand fail the test, 3 catastrophically as old used lead/acid batteries out perform with zero failures let alone the stunning additional voltage the similarly priced Antigravity battery passed both the load, actual bike cranking, and cranking and constant draw tests?



Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
what I do agree with you is Shorai's method of rating pb eq is a bunch of BS. I don't agree with Shorai's rating bump of 3x over actual amp hour. I've stated that right from the git go. Amp hour is amp hour... there is no substitute.
Agreed, but perhaps there is some room for differing ratings.

Have a look here:

Deka ETX14 V Antigravity YTX12-16

this was done by cranking a real live bike 10 seconds in a row, waiting 2 minutes and 50 seconds, then repeating till the Deka crapped out +1

The Deka is rated 12 amp hour @10 hour rate. The Antigravity cells rating is 9.2 amp hour at some unknown rate but obviously higher.

The Deka was not out of amp hour, but it was out of usable amp hour as the chemical reaction was too slow to continue cranking without rest.

A separate rating that for this battery is in the neighborhood of 1.3-1.7 seems appropriate under some reasonable conditions and thats how Antigravity rates them. I would prefer a better explanation in Antigravitys FAQ, but as I said, the rating is somewhat reasonable. I agree that Shorais 3 x AH rating is a bad joke.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
IMHO if one needs to do sustained 200 amp 30 second discharges.... the battery needs to be large enough to sustain those loads. my inclination is to take Shorai's CCA rating and cut it in half. so LFX 21's 310 CCA rating should be able to sustain 155 amp continuous for 30 seconds. taking LFX 36's 500+ CCA rating by half indicates LFX 36 should have no problems sustaining 200amp loads for 30 seconds continuous.
The LFX18 that checked out DID check out under reduced load. 24 seconds 150 amp draw and the battery is now a paper weight. This is 15 amps over your inclination and 6 seconds shorter, so I would cut the rating even further.

By Specification the $160 Shorai LFX 14 is rated to start the F800GS "like" the oe lead / acid battery.

By application chart which has been bumped up by Shorai twice in the last year, the $230 Shorai LFX21 is the ticket

Testing the batteries side by side, I would say possibly the $350 LFX 36 will perform as well as the $75 oe Deka lead / acid battery, but this is just a guess based on how much poorer the LFX 27 performed during actual cranking tests as well as precise side by side load tests before it failed in a cloud of smoke, but no flames and not much heat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
it's not fair taking a 6 amp hour battery, then expecting it to sustain a 200 amp load for 30 seconds. my guess is more like 135 amp for 30 seconds continuous is closer to what a LFX 18 can sustain. but above is all hypothetical for 99.99% of all bike riders will not be subjecting their battery to 200amp loads for 30 seconds continuously. it needs to be pointed out just because LFX 21 cannot sustain 200 amp for 30 seconds, doesn't mean it cannot deliver 200 amp for starting. I've flogged FLX 21 with 200amp draws with no problems. LFX 21 delivered more than enough power to do multiple cold starts requiring 200 amp draws for 5-6 seconds.
I agree that the Shorai battery CAN start a good running bike, so for sports bike riders who stay near town, or adventure riders who ride to starbucks, Shorai should fit the bill, though I doubt the Balistic is any worse, probably better, and cheaper then the Shorai.

BUT there is nothing "unfair" about side by side tests that are exactly the same, and once again, when Yuasa, Deka, and Antigravity pass all the same tests the Shorais failed catastrophically and had lower terminal voltage for, how can this not be meaningful?


But lets be completely honest for a moment _cy_. I can tell you like Shorai, and I have to admit, the one time I called them they were super polite, but can you honestly recommend a battery that is not waterproof to adventure riders?

Sink any Shorai battery in a bucket of water and bubbles come out around the terminals till the case is full of water. This will destroy the battery so if you prefer, just press your lips around a terminal, blow, and feel the air come out the other side.

Sink an Antigravity battery in a bucket of water and no bubbles :) I actually left it under water for 3 days, then rode 4,000 miles with it in my Capo

I have dropped my bike during water crossings. I also ride during monsoon, as do many other adventure riders.

Also one of the used Shorais sent to me had rusty water in it.

FOR REAL? Can you recommend a battery that is not water proof to adventure riders?


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
more to come on this.... I've also been doing a bit more testing on balance charging with low amp trickle chargers and the like. since I have not opened up my Shorai batteries ... don't know for sure. but these two Shorai batteries that I have sure act like they are internally balanced. all indications are that after each cell reaches full charge something is bleeding off current very similar to if each cell has a balancing circuit attached. if true, this would explain perfectly why you didn't experience cell balancing with Shorai until about 14.4v was reached.

cylindrical cells like A123 have certain advantages and disadvantages. cylindrical cells have inherent support structures allowing stronger internal contacts. those support structures also take up space. prismatic cells are more space efficient.

A123 or similar 26650 cells (26mm x 650mm) form is currently the highest production LiFePO4 cells in the world due to use in battery powered tools. just like 18650 lithium cobalt cells were at one time the highest production li-ion cells due to use in Laptops.

both 18650 lithium cobalt cells years ago and today 26650 in LiFePO4 enjoy the latest improvement as engineering incorporates advancements into latest production. it's only natural most R&D effort be invested in the cells with most $$$ sales potential.

disadvantage of A123 cylindrical cells is the number that it take to make up a motorcycle battery. one A123 cell is rated at 2.3amp... a four cells in series makes a 2.3 AH motorcycle battery.

it takes 16 cells in 4x (parallel) x 4x in series to make a 9.2 AH A123 based motorcycle battery. that's 16 individual cells to keep in balance. this is where prismatic cells with larger amp hour have an advantage. the equivalent 9 AH LiFePO4 prismatic cell will still use 4 cell in series. but those cells are rated for 9 amp hours each. prismatic cells cal be mfg to very large sizes to 20 amp hour + with no problems. with 20 cell and 24 cell LiFePO4 batteries, potential problems of keeping cells in balance goes up, especially as cells age.

LiFePO4 cells in series will not self balance during charging. cells that reaches full charge first will keep raising in volts until overheating with venting occurs.

weak point of prismatic cells, which is also it's strong point. which is the lack of support structure. prismatic cells can be made into a verity of shapes utilizing every cubic inch of space. this lack of support structure means internal connectors are inherently not strong as cylindrical cells.

prismatic LiFePO4 and cylindrical A123 cells both have their advantage and disadvantages.
[/QUOTE]

Go look at the dimensions of Shorai, Antigravity, and Balistic. Amp hour to size, the Shorai batteries have the lowest energy density and from testing against Antigravity, Shorai has MUCH lower CCA size to size.

I assume you got the size part from Shorais FAQ but be careful as that whole thing is a pack of lies.

I appreciate your work _cy_ and am not trying to beat up on you, but from my testing and years as a licensed industrial electrician, technician, field service engineer, and shop foreman / service manager, I strongly disagree that SHorai is making a good product.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:29 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
_cy_, which rechargeable power tool manufacturers currently use A123 cells?
RC folks were the first to harvest A123 cells from lithium tool battery packs. note A123 (26650) style batteries is also included in this category. chinese have been making A123 clones for sometime.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1415041

Real A123 CARDBOARD SLEEVED harvested from DEwalt power pack

ALL SOLD, THX RCG

2cell pack SOLD pending funds
$35 TAKES remaining 5 CELLS SHIPPED

Or $6.50 per cell if buyer pays shipping----Paypal OK

Like new, Only 10 to 15 cycles on them

Shown here in a one, two, & four pack configuration with 4mm bullet connectors

I did them this way so I could easily try different combinations for power
IE: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 S
The resting voltage for 7 cells is 25 volts for an average of 3.57 v per cell

Thanks for looking,

Roger aka GIFLYRC
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  • individual packs shown shrink wrapped one cell, 2 cells, & 4 cells 64.7 KB Views: 36
  • Shown connected in series as a 7s1p reading 25 volts for the pack, other combinations possible 1s thru 6s 53.2 KB Views: 76
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:49 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
RC folks were the first to harvest A123 cells from lithium tool battery packs. note A123 (26650) style batteries is also included in this category. chinese have been making A123 clones for sometime.
I remember when DeWalt and their other brands used them. Note the past tense. A more simple answer is none, currently. So far as clones, those aren't A123, are they? A123 "style" batteries shouldn't be included because they aren't A123. In the right situation, that would get you a cease and desist from A123's legal department.

You've spent a lot of time in the very detailed minutiae of your tests with plenty of obscure terminology which I would hazard is not understood by a majority of the people interested in the batteries. And then, as I pointed out several times in this thread, I as a layperson somewhat familiar with the technology found many mistakes in your descriptions of the various chemistries. In my opinion this subtracts from your credibility

Mr. Wiseman seems to be taking a much more practical approach to the subject. Run the crap out of the battery and see what it takes to kill it. The eight A123 26650 cells, two sets of four in series paralleled potted in silicone with a bms, I've been using in my car for the past couple months have been flawless. The starter draws 320 amps.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:33 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Agreed, but there is variance. Over 3.65 volts per cell continuously is bad for all LiFePO4 chemistry as it rapidly ages the battery. Sudden catastrophic failure does not occur till substantially higher voltage, and here, things are not equal. Pouch cells such as Shorai use are not contained in a pressure vessel. As such, these pouch cells will vent electrolyte quite easily during overcharge or heavy current demand.

On the current side, I had a brand new Shorai LFX21 venting in just 14 seconds at a 200 amp load. The LFX21 is a 7 amp hour battery that Shorai rates 21 AH PBEQ 315 CCA PBEQ.

In contrast, not only did I subject the Antigravity YTX12-16 to a 30 second 200 amp discharge, I hit it with a 480 amp discharge for 15 seconds, all with zero venting confirmed with gas detector, lack of audible hissing, and since the Antigravity batteries are gas tight as apposed to the Shorai which is not even water resistant, by observing zero bulging of the battery case. The Antigravity YTX12-16 is a 9.2 amp hour battery that Antigravity rates 15 AH PBEQ and 480 CCA PBEQ.

Do the math. The Shorai vented at 14 seconds of 63% of CCA rating.
The Antigravity did NOT vent at 15 seconds of 100% of CCA rating, nor did it vent at 30 seconds of 41%
CCA load.
In a demanding environment, I am convinced that a pressure vessel around the cell is our friend :)
one of the advantages of 26650 A123 style cylindrical cells is hugely increase structural rigidity. with large surface area to spot weld metal bands in series. prismatic pouch cells have limited support for terminals. this arrangement allows a variety of shape and sizes. allowing large AH and small AH cells to be made.

4 cells are less likely to go out of balance vs 16 or 20 cells. especially as cells age.

yes I like Shorai batteries purely because that have never given me reason not to. for instance... since I've never needed to crank a battery in real life for 14 continuous seconds. why would I subject Shorai to that test?

what I have done is crank LFX 21 repeatedly for 5-6 seconds with a 200 amp load ... until I got bored doing it. that is NOT a gentle test ... repeatedly subjecting a battery to 200 amp loads on end for 5-6 second cranks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
On the overcharging side, I have yet to test, but will be. Overcharge is a common occurrence. Not so much with the rare for motorcycle external wound rotor alternator you have on the R80, but common for the PM rotor, shunt regulated alternators common to most bikes as the typical failure mode for the shunt regulator is for the shunt to burn open leaving the battery and bike exposed to full charging output till the rider notices or bike shuts down on its own.

I don't yet know the real world performance of cylindric cell LiFePO4 batteries under these conditions, but I am sure they will spew their guts out at some point, however it seems intuitive that a pouch cell will fail much quicker owing to no pressure vessels to keep the guts where they belong.

"discharging will scrub off more amps from higher charged cells than weaker cells". This does not make sense. If we were talking parallel cells, sure, they will balance this way, but for series, how could we possibly have more current flow through one cell then another?

It is series cells we are talking about. If one cell has a higher current flow then another when all the cells are in connected in series, where are those extra electrons going, outer space?

I think your experts are confused on this point because their thinking defies electrical principals that are as firm as laws of the universe.

In a series arrangement, the only way for any chemistry to balance, lacking a BMS, is at the very top during mild overcharging or at the very bottom.

At the very bottom, a cell will reverse which with LiFePO4 will spell instant and permanent death. At the top, both Shorai and A123 based batteries such as Antigravity or ballistic will begin a slow and mild balancing stage.

After much reading, this is not actually due to overcharge voltage as inefficiencies of the chemistry in converting electrical to chemical charge near fully charged.

In a nut shell. Most LiFePO4 cells are above 95% efficient at converting charge in the 20%-90% charged cell, but only 80% efficient efficient for the final 10% to fully charged. Since we are talking seriesed cells here, the current through all cells will always be exactly equal, however the cells at a lower state of charge will be converting that current flow to chemical charge more efficiently then the higher charged cells.

This effect is mild and not the way I would choose to balance a battery, BUT is likely plenty good to keep a battery from going out of balance in the first place.

Once again, there are differences between the Shorai and Antigravity batteries I tested that in simple terms means the Antigravity has a much stronger tendency to balance at a lower charging voltage then the Shorai.

I did not call experts for this conclusion as quite frankly, the experts I called regarding other LiFePO4 things all gave conflicting statements!

What I did was measure this effect exhaustively and methodically, recorded myself doing such and posted it to my youtube so others can repeat my experiments in a form of peer review.

I would consider this more conclusive then expert statements as it is something you can duplicate and see with your own eyes.
not done yet, but after charging and discharging Shorai batteries many cycles. with intelligent and dumb chargers both.... starting to come to conclusion Shorai batteries are internally balanced.

I'm not going to tear open good functional Shorai batteries. but you've got three dead batteries that could be opened up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
_cy_ I appreciate your gentle tests of LiFePO4 use in an undemanding motorcycle in top condition on first world pavement and have read through them from start to finish, but I am not testing for when everything is hunky-dory, nor do I wish to wait 5 years to find out if LiFePO4 lasts as long as lead acid in gentle use.

I am DELIBERATELY subjecting batteries to very harsh use to find out which hold up the best when things are not perfect.

I have supported numerous riders on dream round-the-world rides and have concluded the following: Things go wrong in the least desirable of places.

The rider I supported on a cross Asia trip had his F800GS crap out in Tibet at a very high elevation. Fuel he got out of a 55 gallon drum was the culprit, but it took a lot of cranking to figure this out AND get fresh fuel to the injectors.

The rider I supported who broke down in some (can't remember which) African nation on his F650GS had a fuel pump fail. Once again it took considerable cranking and repeated restarts for him to limp to where he could mod a Toyota fuel pump into his tank.

The rider I supported who broke down in the Russian wilderness who lost his stator had to use his battery as a constant loss power source between charges on farm manual chargers I didn't even know existed.

The numerous riders of modern BMW's who have had fuel injectors stick owing to water contaminated ethanol induced corrosion could have kept riding if their starting battery would have just held the cranking voltage 1 volt higher.

The list goes on and on because I have been at this for 25 years professionally, but as the saying goes, "shit happens", and though I find your data useful, battery performance under demanding conditions is as relevant to me if not more then battery performance on sunny days with flawless bikes, well, windy days too I guess :)
don't consider doing tests that mirror what a motorcycle rider gentle. what I would call that is real world testing. IMHO testing to destruction with tests that would never happen even in extreme situations serves zero value.

again .. would agree that Shorai over rates their batteries. my choice would be the FLX 36 for adventuring, just to gain extra margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
You may have missed it, but only one of the Shorai batteries I tested to destruction was used, the other two were new.

I have carefully documented and video recorded every test.

The tests were not deliberately destructive, it just turned out 3 of the Shorais failed during the course of testing which lead me to suspend Shorai testing as I promised to keep the other Shorai battery usable.


what is ABSOLUTELY relevant in these tests that turned out to be destructive to Shorai is that I tested each battery PRECISELY the same under EXACTLY the same conditions, one after the other.

A new Shorai LFX 18 and LFX27 as well as a couple of week old used LFX21 all failed catastrophically in tests that a 2 year old lead/acid Yuasa YTX12, 4 month old Deka ETX 14, and Antigravity YTX12-16 all passed.

Not only this, but in tests subsequent to the load tests, the Shorai LFX18 and 21 both performed worse at short cranking sessions on my Aprilia Caponord at moderate temperatures then even the 2 year old 180 CCA rated Yuasa.

The LFX27 bested the 2 year old Yuasa ETX12, but was bested by the $75 Deka ETX14 and Obliterated by the Antigravity YTX12-16.

I'm not sure how anyone could conclude these tests are "meaningless" when they are done side by side, exactly the same and precisely duplicatable by anyone and 4 batteries of Shorai brand fail the test, 3 catastrophically as old used lead/acid batteries out perform with zero failures let alone the stunning additional voltage the similarly priced Antigravity battery passed both the load, actual bike cranking, and cranking and constant draw tests?
if you mean a 14 second 200 amp load on LFX 21 ... I'd consider that destructive simply because almost no one would be doing that in real life.

appears a major part of problems is how Shorai rates their batteries. perhaps these tests should have been done on a LFX 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Agreed, but perhaps there is some room for differing ratings.

Have a look here:



this was done by cranking a real live bike 10 seconds in a row, waiting 2 minutes and 50 seconds, then repeating till the Deka crapped out +1

The Deka is rated 12 amp hour @10 hour rate. The Antigravity cells rating is 9.2 amp hour at some unknown rate but obviously higher.

The Deka was not out of amp hour, but it was out of usable amp hour as the chemical reaction was too slow to continue cranking without rest.

A separate rating that for this battery is in the neighborhood of 1.3-1.7 seems appropriate under some reasonable conditions and thats how Antigravity rates them. I would prefer a better explanation in Antigravitys FAQ, but as I said, the rating is somewhat reasonable. I agree that Shorais 3 x AH rating is a bad joke.


The LFX18 that checked out DID check out under reduced load. 24 seconds 150 amp draw and the battery is now a paper weight. This is 15 amps over your inclination and 6 seconds shorter, so I would cut the rating even further.

By Specification the $160 Shorai LFX 14 is rated to start the F800GS "like" the oe lead / acid battery.

By application chart which has been bumped up by Shorai twice in the last year, the $230 Shorai LFX21 is the ticket

Testing the batteries side by side, I would say possibly the $350 LFX 36 will perform as well as the $75 oe Deka lead / acid battery, but this is just a guess based on how much poorer the LFX 27 performed during actual cranking tests as well as precise side by side load tests before it failed in a cloud of smoke, but no flames and not much heat.



I agree that the Shorai battery CAN start a good running bike, so for sports bike riders who stay near town, or adventure riders who ride to starbucks, Shorai should fit the bill, though I doubt the Balistic is any worse, probably better, and cheaper then the Shorai.

BUT there is nothing "unfair" about side by side tests that are exactly the same, and once again, when Yuasa, Deka, and Antigravity pass all the same tests the Shorais failed catastrophically and had lower terminal voltage for, how can this not be meaningful?


But lets be completely honest for a moment _cy_. I can tell you like Shorai, and I have to admit, the one time I called them they were super polite, but can you honestly recommend a battery that is not waterproof to adventure riders?

Sink any Shorai battery in a bucket of water and bubbles come out around the terminals till the case is full of water. This will destroy the battery so if you prefer, just press your lips around a terminal, blow, and feel the air come out the other side.

Sink an Antigravity battery in a bucket of water and no bubbles :) I actually left it under water for 3 days, then rode 4,000 miles with it in my Capo

I have dropped my bike during water crossings. I also ride during monsoon, as do many other adventure riders.

Also one of the used Shorais sent to me had rusty water in it.

FOR REAL? Can you recommend a battery that is not water proof to adventure riders?

didn't realize Shorai were not waterproof... thanks for pointing that out... a few dabs of silicon should fix that issue.

yes I do like Shorai for the simple reason they have never given any reason not to. I've flogged them repeatedly at 200 amp loads but only for 5-6 seconds per cycle.

Let's be real... if a motorcycle doesn't start after 5-6 seconds of solid cranking. something is wrong and needs to be addressed. before you go melting your starter.

and no I would not be recommending a smaller Shorai or a smaller Ballistic, smaller Anti Gravity or any other smaller LiFePO4 battery for Adventuring.

what I initially started to use for R80G/S and still may ... is a 20 amp hour (actual) LiFePO4 battery with balance/over charge circuits.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:07 AM   #204
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Okay, your reasoning is starting to make more sense to me _cy_, but let me point out where mine differs.

Your test and experience bed seems to be a carbed BMW R80GS with almost zero electronics.

Firstly, a compliment is owed. Keeping an R80GS running well without needing monthly visits to a dealership requires talent. Unless I read you wrong, you do all of your own work, so through training or significant experience, you must be a good mechanic in your own right.

On a side note, what are you using for points? If you converted to breaker less, well thats what I would do, but for those whiting to stay stock, the oe points are now made in mexico and don't hold up, have you found any that do and know where I can source them?


Okay, back to my experience. The adventure bikes my battery thread is for are all fuel injected and most quite complex. If they don't start after two seconds of good cranking, something is wrong.

Things go wrong ALL THE TIME on these modern marvels. To sort it, you usually need to either start it, or crank and crank while looking for what is missing.

Fuel pressure is easy, a gauge is ideal, but lacking that, get used to how the fuel delivery hose feels under system pressure (usually 42 PSI), crank for a few seconds and feel to see if it seems right.

Good, move on. Not good, crank for a LOT longer. The problem could be....
1: No duty cycle signal to fuel pump controller. (a meter should read something and usually bounce all over)

2: Broken ground or positive out from controller. (pull it out and test)

3: The wrong duty cycle from controller. (hope you have a scope in the bush with you, if not, crank and take a long reading with meter set to min/max/average)

4: No B+ to controller. (test. There are no fuses in a modern BMW but rather a basic controller which is a set of solid state switches controlling many things with some logic and current sensing. Sometimes they bug out so crank for a while and it may go into limp home mode or reload firmware from NV ram)

5: No B- to controller. (Test, this is a simple connection to ground)

6: Bad check valve causing it to take 15+seconds to build fuel pressure and displace gas vapors that result. (check valve is in the pump and not removable so all you can do is crank a long time to build pressure and replace the pump when you reach civilization)

7: Stuck open regulator which causes it to take forever to build fuel pressure and require the pump to have higher voltage before it will again proper air/fuel ratio (this one really takes a long continues session of cranking and is not that uncommon. The regulator is in the tank just above the pump in non return systems. You could pull the pump and apply power to check it, but you need to be pumping something for it to tell. Water will damage the pump so gasoline is probably the only fluid on hand that will work. The pump has brushes that arc and rely on the air fuel mixture in the tank being too rich to support combustion, but once you have the pump half out, all bets are off.

The bitch is the regulator usually sticks in the wide open position well away from where it needs to be for high fuel delivery rates for cold starting during under voltage from cranking, BUT, if you crank and crank, the DME will slowly lengthen fuel injection pulses to try and see if richening will start the bike, which it will, but not before 15 to 30 seconds of continues cranking. short pulses of the starter will do nothing as the fuel trim will reset to zero each time you release the starter button.)

8: Bad ground to DME. (There are actually 4 grounds that need to be present to the DME on a modern BMW, test all 4 but realize, they may be opening under load so test for voltage while cranking.)

9: Bad hot to DME. (This is controlled by the basic module, crank and crank while testing. the basic module may need to reset or there could be a CANbus communication issue or the wire could be open, or it could be shorted and the basic module has opened the circuit but will retry every 5 seconds or so, so crank and crank while pulling on various parts of the harness. Or remove the harness and untape it. good luck with that, takes about 4 hours in a shop if your experienced.)

10: Open safety circuit, such as side stand, clutch switch, kill switch, tilt switch, (test, test and test. if it ohms out ok, try while cranking, sometimes it opens under load or is shorted to something else that goes live while cranking)

11: Scrambled DME firmware in HS static ram, (hold that start button, it will begin reloading from NV ram if you crank for long enough for it to realize the static ram is corrupted. You can also remove the battery leads, short them, and wait about a day for the capacitor that keeps the static memory fresh to drain through the high omit connection through leads and ram load, hope you have warm sleeping gear)

12: Stuck fuel pump. (beat on it while cranking and the higher the battery voltage is the better. If this doesn't work, pop the controller off and go direct from the battery, jog it in both directions but realize that if it is super stuck and you aren't using a fused jumper, the wires will burn in half inside the fuel tank)

13: Bad fuel pump controller. (go direct from battery and disconnect each time you stop the engine. you really want to use a fuse, 10 amp should do. note on the K7X and K16 platforms the pressure will be way to high BUT the computer will compensate if you crank for a really long time and get it started)

14: Open fuel pump winding. (you are screwed, hike or hit your spot)

15: Fuel pump brush stuck or on dead winding or grunge on commutator, bang on fuel pump flange as you crank, often takes a long cranking and beating session to free this, the same with a stuck pump, but beating without potential at brushes does nothing so crank and crank. (crank and crank and crank while you beat it)

16: Bad fuel pressure sensor. (If it is truly bad, this will be masked and the pump will operate at a fixed duty cycle, but the fuel mix will be way off, crank and crank while the DME mods fuel mixture hunting for that magic ratio. remember, short pulses of cranking do no good cause the fuel trim resets to zero each time you release the start button. if it is just sort of bad, the bike will never start, so pull the connector and crank and crank until the DME finally decides the FP sensor is broken or disconnected and then crank some more as it sets a fixed duty cycle on the pump and hunts for that magic air/fuel ratio)

If fuel pressure was ok, then it is likely one of 72 wires to the DME are open, shorted, or high resistance, or it could be a problem with the intake air temperature sensor, engine temperature sensor, oxygen sensor or its heater circuit, throttle position sensor, crank position sensor, cam position sensor, plugged, shorted, stuck, or open fuel injectors, or perhaps its not in the fuel management system at all, could be the ignition system which has a whole lot of wires and sensors itself. could also be a CANbus communication issue.

These are the common problems I have run across in my professional career but there are obscure possibilities as well.

It's rather daunting even to professionals like myself, especially when trying to figure out problems by email, forum post, cell phone or text message so don't feel bad if you simply decide to scrub your dream trip and fly home :(

OR, you can select a battery that will hold up to prolonged continuous cranking and many issues will sort themselves or at least be masked out and limp home modes activated.

For what it is worth, most often beating on the pump and injectors while cranking for an extended period will get you back up and running, as long as your battery is up to the task. And on a positive note, stuck fuel pumps and injectors are far less likely if you choose a battery that keeps the cranking voltage high as this same voltage increases the force with which the fuel pump applies torque to the rotor and solenoids alloy force to injector pentle.


_cy_ does my different take on the need for a battery that can do prolonged cranking start to make sense when talking of modern fuel injected adventure bikes?
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:26 AM   #205
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joel... good grief that's a LOT of cranking! No wonder you are so keyed in on long crank cycles. this puts a completely different light on things. getting a load of bad fuel in an R800GS, then having to crank the devil out of it to back going again is very much real world.

so for a modern bike cranking times a battery needs to sustain would be 15 seconds. but load requirements would go down slightly. typically amp loads will lessen into long crank cycles. assuming current draw would be about 150 amps. this means LFX 36 is the only Shorai that would likely meet adventuring requirements for modern BMW bikes.

yup you read correctly no visits to the BMW dealerships for me and I'd like to keep it that way too.
that's why electronic ignition is getting yanked soon. would have done it already except for difficulty in locating a bean can with points. which only was used in 79-80 airheads. finally lucked out and found one on fleabay for $35 + $9 shipping.

your above list is exactly why I'm not running electronics. will be a long ways from any support. so anything remotely has a chance of breaking will be taken care of before leaving RTW. much cheaper to ship transmission off to a specialist for total rebuild with a new clutch vs dealing with it on the road.

here I just did a no no ... freshening up the old points with emery cloth until I can find new ones. sure hope I can find some nice German Bosch points.


_cy_ screwed with this post 04-16-2012 at 03:34 AM
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:55 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
I remember when DeWalt and their other brands used them. Note the past tense. A more simple answer is none, currently. So far as clones, those aren't A123, are they? A123 "style" batteries shouldn't be included because they aren't A123. In the right situation, that would get you a cease and desist from A123's legal department.

You've spent a lot of time in the very detailed minutiae of your tests with plenty of obscure terminology which I would hazard is not understood by a majority of the people interested in the batteries. And then, as I pointed out several times in this thread, I as a layperson somewhat familiar with the technology found many mistakes in your descriptions of the various chemistries. In my opinion this subtracts from your credibility

Mr. Wiseman seems to be taking a much more practical approach to the subject. Run the crap out of the battery and see what it takes to kill it. The eight A123 26650 cells, two sets of four in series paralleled potted in silicone with a bms, I've been using in my car for the past couple months have been flawless. The starter draws 320 amps.
yup that's why I've used the terminology "A123 style 26650 batteries" for the exact reason you pointed out. A123 was the first ... many followed with clones, some claim better, some say not as good, etc. etc.

keeping track of which lithium power tool uses what brand battery is pretty low my list. what's more useful is knowing A123 style batteries enjoy the latest improvements. simply because economic incentive to improve performance is the highest with 26650 cells.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:32 PM   #207
Antigravity
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Quote:
my comments are right on the money
Cy I don't think you get it, when you post something that is not accurate many people read it and may take it as fact. So I have to make sure if someone like you who is supposedly "unbiased" is posting facts, and not posting things that I have to defend because they are inaccurate or misleading. This effect a smaller company like Antigravity who at this time can't compete with full page ads of Shorai who you seem to cater too. Earlier I presented proof that the A123 based batteries in Cylindric format ARE in fact more compact than the Prismatic form (in motorcycle use) while offering much more Power and similar amp hours, yet you are willing to claim your statements are "right on the money". You are not close to on the money. You original post was to give info on the batteries in the application of adventure motorcycles, and you made a claim that the cylindric format uses more space giving the impression it was larger... I just wanted to correct the implied statement.

Quote:
in fairness to all.... I will not subject batteries to conditions that a normal user will not subject their batteries to. neither will I not publish a batteries' failure not to perform under condition normally experienced by a motorcycle user
.
Sorry this doesn't fly, you are supposed to be an "unbiased tester" not "fair". There is nothing unfair about doing hard testing.... The readers probably want to know what can handle the most abuse. It is a sign of QUALITY.... Why do you think Ford or Chevy has commercials showing their vehicles towing massive payloads beyond their capacity... why do you think Castrol Oil tried to blow up motor using its oil on those commercial..... it because they want to show their product went BEYOND normal use and handled it. That is why those independant labs beat the hell out of products and test them beyond their capability.

You are correct 90% of the people won't use a product in a torture test... but don't you want to know which one lasts the torture test if you researching for the best product? I feel your copping out...you claim you wanted to test for which battery could handle world travel...yet you are only testing voltage and amp hours.... not really much if you claiming to be "testing" a battery to see if it handles world travel. Isn't waterproof important in testing? Adventure guys see lots of water.

Quote:
very easy to explain why I posted that cylindrical cell's hard structure takes up more space than a prismatic cell. never made a claim that motorcycle batteries using A123 are larger than Motorcycle batteries using prismatic cells or that prismatic cells have higher energy density.
Cy you were implying it and you are actually talking out of context to what your thread is about... You are trying to prove a "disadvantage" of the Cylindric A123 to the Prismatic Cell in space/size (your Shorai bias?)... BUT in fact there is not one in the application of Motorcycle Batteries, the opposite is true in fact. We are talking bike batteries and their viability in Adventure Bikes,correct? So in fact your statement appears to specifically point out a supposed "disadvantage" in size/space savings that does not really exist in this application. This is the reason I had to start posting in the thread. I felt it was misleading and seemingly biased. You have promoted one product here with favorable reviews without having the other products to test in a similar arena, but then you start making statements of "disadvantages" in the other product which you HAVE NOT tested. Does not seem unbiased.


Quote:
A123 cells are produced in huge numbers because LOTS of folks are buying lithium power tools. Huge economical incentives exist to produce superior 26650 cells. this is why like energy density, increase in number of charge cycles occurs first in 26650 cells.
The actual reason is because the cell is a proven durable performer and world class companies know it works... so yes the technology goes there first and foremost to create and even better version... and that is great for the consumer and A123 has the new 2.5 Ah 26650 out now....

Another highly noticable oversight on your part is you seem to be lumping in the A123 26650 Cell with the other knock-off 26650 Lifepo4 Cells....but you FAIL to mention that those other companies making the the 26650 Lifepo4 Cylindric Cell cannot even produce the performance and durability of the A123 26650 Cell which is capable a pulse discharge of 120 Amps per cell and has a 70amp constant current ability while the other knock-off 26650 can do only 40 amp discharges... when you are talking battery cells and knock-offs of the A123 cell It is actually like comparing a Harbor Frieght tool to a Snap-On. The Cells are that different in quality and perfomance... being the same size has NOTHING to do with these batteries.

I do aplogize for the rant... but felt it necessary.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:35 PM   #208
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Cy I don't think you get it, when you post something that is not accurate many people read it and may take it as fact. So I have to make sure if someone like you who is supposedly "unbiased" is posting facts, and not posting things that I have to defend because they are inaccurate or misleading. This effect a smaller company like Antigravity who at this time can't compete with full page ads of Shorai who you seem to cater too. Earlier I presented proof that the A123 based batteries in Cylindric format ARE in fact more compact than the Prismatic form (in motorcycle use) while offering much more Power and similar amp hours, yet you are willing to claim your statements are "right on the money". You are not close to on the money. You original post was to give info on the batteries in the application of adventure motorcycles, and you made a claim that the cylindric format uses more space giving the impression it was larger... I just wanted to correct the implied statement.

Sorry this doesn't fly, you are supposed to be an "unbiased tester" not "fair". There is nothing unfair about doing hard testing.... The readers probably want to know what can handle the most abuse. It is a sign of QUALITY.... Why do you think Ford or Chevy has commercials showing their vehicles towing massive payloads beyond their capacity... why do you think Castrol Oil tried to blow up motor using its oil on those commercial..... it because they want to show their product went BEYOND normal use and handled it. That is why those independant labs beat the hell out of products and test them beyond their capability.

You are correct 90% of the people won't use a product in a torture test... but don't you want to know which one lasts the torture test if you researching for the best product? I feel your copping out...you claim you wanted to test for which battery could handle world travel...yet you are only testing voltage and amp hours.... not really much if you claiming to be "testing" a battery to see if it handles world travel. Isn't waterproof important in testing? Adventure guys see lots of water.


Cy you were implying it and you are actually talking out of context to what your thread is about... You are trying to prove a "disadvantage" of the Cylindric A123 to the Prismatic Cell in space/size (your Shorai bias?)... BUT in fact there is not one in the application of Motorcycle Batteries, the opposite is true in fact. We are talking bike batteries and their viability in Adventure Bikes,correct? So in fact your statement appears to specifically point out a supposed "disadvantage" in size/space savings that does not really exist in this application. This is the reason I had to start posting in the thread. I felt it was misleading and seemingly biased. You have promoted one product here with favorable reviews without having the other products to test in a similar arena, but then you start making statements of "disadvantages" in the other product which you HAVE NOT tested. Does not seem unbiased.

The actual reason is because the cell is a proven durable performer and world class companies know it works... so yes the technology goes there first and foremost to create and even better version... and that is great for the consumer and A123 has the new 2.5 Ah 26650 out now....

Another highly noticable oversight on your part is you seem to be lumping in the A123 26650 Cell with the other knock-off 26650 Lifepo4 Cells....but you FAIL to mention that those other companies making the the 26650 Lifepo4 Cylindric Cell cannot even produce the performance and durability of the A123 26650 Cell which is capable a pulse discharge of 120 Amps per cell and has a 70amp constant current ability while the other knock-off 26650 can do only 40 amp discharges... when you are talking battery cells and knock-offs of the A123 cell It is actually like comparing a Harbor Frieght tool to a Snap-On. The Cells are that different in quality and perfomance... being the same size has NOTHING to do with these batteries.

I do aplogize for the rant... but felt it necessary.
please quit reading things into something I never posted. what I did post is still dead on the money. if it will make you feel better, please assume I'm not implying anything other than what I specifically post.

Never have I stated final form factor is smaller with prismatic cells vs cylindrical cells on a motorcycle battery. final form factor is determined by each mfg. for instance Prismatic cells require support to keep pouches from twisting. this adds extra bulk.

it takes a total of four large prismatic cells to make up a 20 amp hour (actual) battery. it'd take 32 A123 cells to make a 20 amp hour battery. which final form factor would be smaller? ... the answer is ... it depends on how the mfg decides to put it together and what type of enclosure will be used.

Prismatic cells don't have the bulk, metallic cans take up. they also don't have the advantage metallic can provides, like ease of spot welding beefy contact strips used to make up multi cell batteries. this is a major reason why cylindrical cells survive continuous high discharge tests Joel has been doing. while prismatic cells fail at those same high rates.

where I was having issues was ... no one that I'm aware of cranks their engine for 30 continuous seconds drawing 200 amps for the entire 30 seconds. cylindrical cell's beefy connectors survives that type of tests with no problems. vs prismatic cell's lack of metallic support structure results in internal connectors that are not as robust will overheat and fail.

that doesn't mean prismatic cells cannot do the job of starting a motorcycle. which normally only requires 200amp (max continous) loads for 5-6 seconds. if a prismatic cell battery can repeatedly deliver starting current of 200amp for 5-6 seconds for say 20+ cycles one right after another. but catastrophically fails the 30 seconds continuous 200amp tests by melting and smoking.

what I've been doing is pointing out advantages and weaknesses of cylindrical vs prismatic batteries. each has both.

for instance when cylindrical cell batteries are wired in parallel. all cells wired in parallel will self balance since all cells will be kept at same voltage. disadvantage is if one cell shorts out... rest of cells wired in parallel will all discharge into the shorted out cell.

the more cells involved in building a battery... higher the chance of cells going out of balance as batteries ages. without question cylindrical cells have an advantage of being able to survive higher discharge currents due to more robust construction.

another advantage cylindrical cells enjoy is volume. advances takes place first with 26650 cells. there's only about a dozen lithium battery mfg in the world. with hundreds of re-labelers. yes there are lots of junk out there. but what makes you think A123 is the only mfg out there that makes outstanding 26650 cells?

don't get me wrong... it's generally acknowledged that A123 26650 cells out performs all other 26650 cells and costs more. but that may not stay that way forever. witness lithium power tool mfg move from A123 to other brands of 26650 cells. I've noticed no lack of performance from my brand new Milwaukee lithium powered tools that no longer uses A123 brand cells.

lithium ion battery advancements is one of fastest evolving sciences anywhere. A123 is not the only mfg that's investing in R&D. what's more likely to happen is advances will take place in one of our universities. then that technology will be given away to the world for next to free. where do you think the technology A123 uses originally came from?

now what do you see that's biased in what I've been posting?

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Old 04-20-2012, 12:29 PM   #209
_cy_ OP
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please excuse the commercial msg, but video does contain bits of information about cylindrical vs prismatic

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Old 06-05-2012, 09:27 AM   #210
DiabloADV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
new information surfacing..... Shorai batteries are not compatible with EnDuraLast aftermarket charging systems for Airheads. does anyone know why?

Did this question ever get answered?
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