Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[_cy_]

recovering nicely from dead (6.5v) Shoria LFX36 via several charge and regenerative discharge cycles.
amp hour input and out capacity are increasing with each cycle.

with a 40 amp charge/discharge capacity, Powerlab 8 has proven itself to be a worthy tool.
fin 11.46 AH input .. very happy with Powerlab 8's performance recovering Shorai LFX36

still need to find out reason why Shorai LFX36 went dead. with how battery is recovering. starting to think reason is due to some type of parasitic drain on R80G/S.



10.39 AH out ... with 11.24 input afterwards


next discharge cycle nets 10.98 AH out ... then 11.33 input


11.10 AH output


charge rate is bumped to 2C or 24amp


fin 11.46 AH input .. very happy with Powerlab 8's performance recovering Shorai LFX36

[_cy_]

Shorai LFX36 is holding 13.79v after sitting over night. seems to have recovered after being drained to 6.5v or completely dead.

second battery installed drained to 13.09v after sitting overnight. starting volts was 13.44v.

there's now a dead drain of 700 milliamps with everything off on R80G/S. have not tracked current drain down yet. probably a diode failing. battery going dead was zero fault of Shorai LFX36.

goes to show you, best not to jump to conclusions until everything is checked out.

[ChrisC]

Just a quick remark on Shorai warranty. I am running a Shorai battery in my '03 640A. It cranks the bike perfectly, particularly when the battery has a little heat in it.

I purchased the dedicated Shorai charger, the BMS01. It seemed to function well for a couple of months and then seemingly just shuffled off it's mortal coil, kaput, nada.

I contacted Shorai directly via their corporate website describing the failure it all the detail I could muster. Within 48 hours their warranty department responded with "expect a new charger being delivered FedEx to your address". They also took the time to explain that some of their chargers were afflicted with a firmware glitch and that was the likely cause of the failure.

So, promptly standing behind their product and a cogent explanation of the likely cause of the failure to boot.

Kudos to Shorai...

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by _cy_

Shorai LFX36 is holding 13.79v after sitting over night. seems to have recovered after being drained to 6.5v or completely dead.

second battery installed drained to 13.09v after sitting overnight. starting volts was 13.44v.

there's now a dead drain of 700 milliamps with everything off on R80G/S. have not tracked current drain down yet. probably a diode failing. battery going dead was zero fault of Shorai LFX36.

goes to show you, best not to jump to conclusions until everything is checked out.

finally had a chance to trace down where 700 milliamps drain originated.

assumed it was the diode board .. headed there first... tested out perfect. all diodes only passed current one direction. passed meter but wanted to place a slightly larger load. hooked up a test light ... passed with flying colors, every diode only would light up test bulb one direction.

rotor tested out at 3.9 ohm or within spec's. all three phases on stator checked perfect. no current to ground.

charging system checked out perfect .. zero drain.. now where did the 700 milliamps go?

kept chasing and finally found the problem... these three accessory wires. clipped wires different lengths to make sure wires could no longer connect... found my drain source.

the good that came out of this was knowing Shorai LFX36 is capable of recovering 100% after being drained to completely dead.

a 700 milliamp parasitic drain can kill ANY battery. good to know Shorai is capable of recovering from dead.

[B9E9R9T9]

A little heat shrink on those wires would be nice. Even cut off the ends are still open with wires on the tips.
Even liquid tape would work better than nothing!

[_cy_]

good idea.. some heat shrink wrap coming up.

[Gramp-Z]

Late to the party . But I recently bought a battery from Battery Mart , a "Big Crank" ETX15L AGM for my 83' V-45 Sabre . My god , that battery has the reserve power ! Had the bike apart all last winter doing a bit of maint. , mostly cleaning carbs (PITA) . The year old battery (standard) that I kept charged all winter had nothing . Talked to few buddies that had switched to AGM and said they were thrilled , so ordered one up . Being as it took a lot of cranking to get oil and fuel into everything , along with some bad connections . I mean I cranked quite a while and it didn't show any sign of getting weaker . A normal battery would have needed to be charged several times for that amount of work . No long term results yet , had to order and install new pulse generators . Will drop in for an update after I get to ride for a bit . Not sure , but isn't the stock battery on my DL650 an AGM ? All I can tell you is I have never had any of my Sabres crank so well , even when new . Carry on .

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Gramp-Z

Late to the party . But I recently bought a battery from Battery Mart , a "Big Crank" ETX15L AGM for my 83' V-45 Sabre . My god , that battery has the reserve power ! Had the bike apart all last winter doing a bit of maint. , mostly cleaning carbs (PITA) . The year old battery (standard) that I kept charged all winter had nothing . Talked to few buddies that had switched to AGM and said they were thrilled , so ordered one up . Being as it took a lot of cranking to get oil and fuel into everything , along with some bad connections . I mean I cranked quite a while and it didn't show any sign of getting weaker . A normal battery would have needed to be charged several times for that amount of work . No long term results yet , had to order and install new pulse generators . Will drop in for an update after I get to ride for a bit . Not sure , but isn't the stock battery on my DL650 an AGM ? All I can tell you is I have never had any of my Sabres crank so well , even when new . Carry on .

excellent feedback!

for most folks, my advice is go with AGM. unless weight is totally critical. AGM has one of the main advantages of LiFePO4 which is very low self discharge. unless one has a large parasitic current drain. trickle charger will not be needed for LiFePO4 or AGM over the winter.

some bikes normally have a small self discharge. for those bikes a trickle charger will be needed regardless of what type battery is used.

if you've got a modern adventure bike and decide that it's worth $$$ to save 10 lb or so over AGM or Gel. forget the marketing hype mfg use to calculate which battery to use.

use actual amp hour rating less 25%. note this is for modern Adventure bikes, which has one of the highest battery demands of any bike. example, if factory ratings is 12 amp hour x .75 = 9 amp hour actual LiFePO4 amp hour rating.

some bikes that only are used in fair weather can get by with much lower LiFePO4 amp hour ratings. one advantage of LiFePO4 batteries is ability to deliver larger amps for size, while maintaining a very flat discharge cycle.

take mfg amp hour ratings with a bucket of salt... use real amp hour ratings to size your LiFePO4 needs. LiFePO4 batteries when sized properly are robust, super lightweight batteries.

upcoming topic will be: special precautions to take when retro-fitting a smaller sized LiFePO4 battery into a stock battery's much larger holder. Or dead short dangers for positive terminals.

[LoneStrom]

Originally Posted by _cy_

for most folks, my advice is go with AGM.

some bikes that only are used in fair weather can get by with much lower LiFePO4 amp hour ratings. one advantage of LiFePO4 batteries is ability to deliver larger amps for size, while maintaining a very flat discharge cycle.

This is good advice. I am using a 12 cell Ballistic in my 12GS. In fair and warm weather it has proven to be a great battery. But in the cold, it doesn't engage the starter, even after a warmup with an accessory load.

Not the best setup to have if you don't have someone around to jump start you.

Joel brought up the starter-pinion issue earlier. Spot on as well for these bikes.

[_cy_]

anytime a battery is moved from OEM location, take extra care in securing that new battery. which is probably a LiFePO4 battery a fraction of weight/size.

for connections, don't trust black tape only. my recommendation is to use thick rubber, then tape that down. radiator hose slit long ways works well to cover critical positive connections.

don't lose all your work and super nice bike to an electrical fire. which could consume battery and rest of bike. lithium batteries discharge at extremely high rates. easily equal to an Arc welder.

LiFePO4 batteries are almost always smaller than OEM batteries. this means factory tie down straps, plates, etc probably will not hold new smaller battery down securely. To Shorai's credit, provides a slew of foam mats all different sizes to help secure new battery.

you MUST secure new smaller LiFePO4 battery solid as factory. don't lose your nice bike to an electrical fire. accidental grounding/discharge is not the battery's fault.

LiFePO4 batteries that uses pig tails instead of a hard connection must be insulated with extra care at positive connector. use thick rubber for insulation. a slit rubber radiator hose slides over connection. then tape hose assembly down to keep from moving. if possible use a connecter kit if battery mfg offers one.

[ShadeTree.]

Some minor experience to share here re: Lithium Iron Batteries.



I purchased an Antigravity battery from an honest fellow at AG (http://antigravitybatteries.com/). I have a well-used (4^th hand) KLR 650 2009. I live in Ontario Canada. So far this year we have already been down to the -5 Celsius (23 Fahrenheit) at night. The bike is in the garage (non-insulated, poly tarp for roof, basically 4 brick walls with no windows). It gets cold out there. So far it fires up every morning, no hick-up, no warm-up procedure. I do have to have the choke wide open however (not surprising). The winter is not really here yet, and it will get worse (winter is coming). In the spring I will re-post here and let you know how it fared for the winter.



Personally I have had great luck with the lithium iron battery (even through some reasonable diagnostic turning: 3 or 4 times at 4 or 5 second bursts, 5 or 6 sets of this over several hours).



Thanks ADV for all of your excellent information, I will try to remember to update. Please feel free to PM me with any specific questions that I can maybe help you with.

[_cy_]

cold weather is finally upon us in Oklahoma and most of USA. Once again meaningful data can be generated.

LiFePO4 batteries are pretty much trouble free during warm weather. but when cold weather hits... that's when problems with under sizing LiFePO4 batteries and not learning cold weather starting procedures shows up.

Yes LiFePO4 cold starting procedures is different. which is fully covered a few pages back.

approaching one year on installed Shorai battery. this is a good beginning for a long term LiFePO4 battery report.

[_cy_]

rumors are A123 went through bankruptcy so Johnson controls could acquire A123 and continue to receive federal subsidies. which are tied to A123 building factories within America. naturally politicians will go along with anyone that builds factories in their district.

have posted this several times, but here goes again:

for most folks, my advice is go with AGM. unless weight is totally critical. AGM has one of the main advantages of LiFePO4 which is very low self discharge. unless one has a large parasitic current drain. trickle charger will not be needed for LiFePO4 or AGM over the winter.

some bikes normally have a small self discharge. for those bikes a trickle charger will be needed regardless of what type battery is used. Your lead/acid battery charger may or may not properly charge LiFePO4 batteries.

if you've got a modern adventure bike and decide that it's worth $$$ to save 10 lb or so over AGM or Gel. forget the marketing hype mfg use to calculate which battery to use.

use actual amp hour rating less 25%. note this is for modern Adventure bikes, which has one of the highest battery demands of any bike. example, if factory ratings is 12 amp hour x .75 = 9 amp hour actual LiFePO4 amp hour rating.

some bikes that only are used in fair weather can get by with much lower LiFePO4 amp hour ratings. one advantage of LiFePO4 batteries is ability to deliver larger amps for size, while maintaining a very flat discharge cycle.

learning how to start your bike with LiFePO4 in cold weather is mandatory. yes procedures are different.

take mfg amp hour ratings with a bucket of salt... use real amp hour ratings to size your LiFePO4 needs. LiFePO4 batteries when sized properly are robust, super lightweight batteries.

----------------------

use caution when replacing any battery substantially smaller than OEM. mount battery equally secure as OEM. taking extra care to make sure positive side cannot ground out.

Lithium batteries discharge at HUGE rates. Dead shorts are suspected in bike fires resulting in total loss.

LiFePO4 batteries that use cables to attach instead of fixed posts require special caution. positive connections need enough insulation, to where grounding out is not possible. including in the event battery gets lose. dead shorts can result in temperatures hot enough to weld with.

[_cy_]

up next ...

1. LiFePO4 amp hour ratings and just what is this PB/EQ most LiFePO4 battery mfg seem to be using?

[_cy_]

one of the advantages of Lithium batteries is it's ability to deliver HUGE amps.

but drawback is extra costs as compared in equal amp hour energy delivered. more amp hour capacity = more $$$

this is why LiFePO4 batteries found it's first non-electric vehicle acceptance in the marketplace in Motorcycles and not in applications like starting diesels or cars. to create a battery with enough amp hours to support those applications. costs would exceed benefit.

what's it worth to you to save say 10lbs.... for the weight wienie paying $$$ for carbon parts for his race bike and/or wanna be race bike. those are some of the cheapest lbs one can unload.

but for most folks ... best replacement battery still remains AGM. unless of course it's worth all the $$$ to save those 5-10 lbs.

yes ... one can successfully use LiFePO4 batteries in the most demanding applications. but the amp hour capacity has to be there. my recommendation is actual lead acid amp hour ... less 25%.

if you follow most lithium battery mfg suggestions. you'll end up with a battery that supports your bike in the summer. NOT for the winter.

R1200GS has some pretty demanding requirements. including needing reserve amp hour capacity to crank bike over repeatedly if your bike should go down from contaminated fuels, etc. there will be times pounding on fuel pump while cranking and cranking will get your bike back up again.

for cold weather, one needs to understand warm up cycles consumes amp hours. starting procedures has to be learned to start your motorcycle in cold conditions.

your heated gear doesn't understand all those fancy PB/EQ ratings battery mfg use. heated gear draws real amps... if your lithium battery say has only 4.6 amp hours. then your heated suit uses a chunk of that reserve just before you put bike away.... guess what happens next morning?

above is why for most folks ... my recommendation is to stick with AGM. but some of us are willing to pay the toll to save 10lbs. not likely someone trying to sell you a lithium battery will inform you... probably because they don't know better.

here's a chart listing voltages with corresponding battery charge state