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Old 11-28-2012, 02:30 PM   #256
_cy_ OP
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last night went to our local Tuesnight pub crawl ... R80G/S had been sitting for a week.

Shorai LFX 36 resting at 13.42v or 100% full. G/S started right up with quick crank. temp was about 50f in garage.

short 10 minute ride to Crawpappys with heated suit and heated gloves on. G/S parked outside for about 3.5 hours while meeting (food&beer) with our local Adv group.

about 35f outside a light layer of frost ... turned on lights a few minutes allowing LFX 36 to warm up a bit. engaged choke, then cranked and cranked and cranked. for some reason G/S decided not to cooperate. LFX 36 was getting a serious workout!

finally after cranking for over 3-4 minutes (not continuous) then turning off choke... R80G/S sputtered to life. then plugged in heated jacket/gloves for the short 10minte ride home.

next morning took a reading ... 13.32v or 90% full... not bad considering all the cranking night before, then heated suit/short ride combo with no chance of alternator having enough time to recharge fully.


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Old 11-28-2012, 08:34 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
that video illustrates why i'm not really interested.
that starting method is a pain in the ass.

a cold cranking engine is wearing the most, so i want a battery that fires right away and circulates oil. i use DEKA AGM batteries and they last for 5yrs and cost my $60. i can appreciate the weight savings but on my DR it's a non-issue (it's heavy) and those few lbs saved makes zero effect on that Harley. same thing for ADV bikes. sure a lightweight 250 where every pound counts i'd pay the premium. back to cold starting, my DEKA AGM starts 1st crank every time cold or hot. After 5 yrs when it slows down some I'll pay another $60 and get 5 more years of solid starting.

when these batteries evolve to 1/2 their current price and do better in the cold, i'll look again. until then it's a solid working and proven AGM for me.
yup there are tolls to pay besides $$$ to successfully use LiFePO4 batteries in adventure bikes. which are the most demanding of all motorcycle applications.

one year in with Shorai LFX 36 in R80G/S ... has proven itself up to task of supporting an adventure bike. When lithium batteries are sized with enough amp hours. they have proven themselves very rugged and reliable. but it's not for everyone...

this is why for most folks AGM is still the way to go. unless of course you are part of that group where saving 10lb or so is worth it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:39 PM   #258
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a common question .... will a standard lead acid battery charger properly charge my LiFePO4 battery?

answer is it depends on the charger. for not all lead acid battery chargers work the same. it's best to use a charger designed specifically to charge LiFePO4 batteries. But one can improvise and use a charger designed to charge lead acid by carefully monitoring charge. then remove when charge gets close to full. being careful not to exceed max voltage of 14.4v for LiFePO4 batteries.

Cellpro Powerlab 8 is what I'm using. A favorite of the RC world. considered the most powerful/versatile of all hobby chargers with software to track charge cycle and generate graphs.

here's my charge station with DVP-2212 (22amp) and HP 6263B regulated power supply


below are the three stages for lead acid charging which works fine with LiFePO4 batteries. not recommended are chargers with an equalization feature which could overcharge/damage LiFePO4 batteries. best lead acid chargers without extra features, like Schauer shown below.

some battery tenders don't actually terminate charge when a certain voltage is reached. but instead continues to deliver a small milliamp charge. this could result in an overcharge condition and damage your LiFePO4 battery.

for most bikes with LiFePO4, battery tenders are not needed or desired. discharge rates are under 1% per month. if no parasitic drain exist on bike, then no tender will be needed.

here's a chart showing LiFePO4 battery's discharge profile. reading is for per cell, 4x 3.6v per cell = 14.4v full charge for LiFePo4 battery. max charge of 3.6v per cell or 14.4v

so long as lead/acid battery charger used doesn't contain an equalization mode and doesn't exceed 14.8v. it should work fine. note equalization (controlled over charge) is also called desulfation mode. note equalization is also not recommended for AGM or Gel cell batteries.




-----------


Three Stage Battery Charging for Lead Acid

The BULK stage involves about 80% of the recharge, wherein the charger current is held constant (in a constant current charger), and voltage increases. The properly sized charger will give the battery as much current as it will accept up to charger capacity (25% of battery capacity in amp hours), and not raise a wet battery over 125 F, or an AGM or GEL (valve regulated) battery over 100 F.
The ABSORPTION stage (the remaining 20%, approximately) has the charger holding the voltage at the charger's absorption voltage (between 14.1 VDC and 14.8 VDC, depending on charger set points) and decreasing the current until the battery is fully charged.
The FLOAT stage is where the charge voltage is reduced to between 13.0 VDC and 13.8 VDC and held constant, while the current is reduced to less than 1% of battery capacity. This mode can be used to maintain a fully charged battery indefinitely.

Equalization
is essentially a controlled over charge. The electrolyte in a wet battery can stratify over time, if not cycled occasionally. In equalization, the voltage is brought up above typical peak charging voltage (to 15 to 16 volts in a 12 volt system) well into the gassing stage, and held for a fixed (but limited) period.

-----------------
LiFePO4 uses constant current (CC) and constant voltage (CV) and consists of three charging phases: pre-charge; fast-charge CC; and CV.

In the pre-charge phase, the battery is charged at a low rate for testing, if the battery is internally shorted when the cell voltage is below 0.5 V.

Fast-charge current is applied to charge the battery quickly. Its charging rate can be up to 10C rate, which is much higher than the traditional LI-Ion battery without additional degradation. The charger enters to the CV mode when the battery reaches a voltage regulation limit (typical of 3.6 V/cell). During the CV mode, the charge current exponentially drops to a pre-defined termination level where the battery is fully charged and the charging is terminated. Since the LiFePO4 battery has much lower internal resistance, its charging time is much shorter than the Li-Ion battery.
While the LiFePO4 is much safer than the Li-Ion battery, a fast charge safety timer is usually required to prevent charging a dead battery for an excessively long period. The LiFePO4 battery can be overcharged to 4 V without safety issues, even though it is specified to charge to 3.6 V. However, the energy stored in the battery between 3.6 V and 4 V is very limited. From the discharge curve in Figure 1, the voltage drop is very fast at the beginning of the discharge period. This demonstrates that the battery does not store much energy at higher voltages.
Most of the battery energy is stored near the battery voltage between 3.0 V and 3.4 V for 1C-5C discharge rates. It does not give much benefit to charge the battery higher than 3.6 V though it does not degrade the battery. The voltage difference between rechargeable voltage threshold and battery charge voltage should be around 200 mV, since it takes a few seconds to drop the battery voltage from 3.6 V to 3.5 V. Although the LiFePO4 battery has excellent and stable high temperatures, it is still preferable to monitor its temperature to improve safety.
LiFePO4 battery charge profile.

_cy_ screwed with this post 12-11-2012 at 06:39 AM
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:41 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Error
Less than 5 years. I keep up on the tech through NASA Techbriefs, my IEEE membership and industry publications. The last batteries I built were for the X-37. They were power for the avionics and control surfaces during re-entry, it didn't burn up when it came home, so I must have done something right.

My problem with the commercial LiIon batteries is cell matching. Every cell, no matter how consistent the manufacturing process, is a little different.
A simple BMS system will shut off charging when the top cell reaches a full charge, leaving every other cell slightly lower, these systems are typically found in power tool batteries. This protects the battery against overcharge, and while LiFeX is more tolerant of overcharge than other variants, it still suffers an effect. Overcharging causes the Lithium to plate out on the anodes. The Li is then unavailable for movement across that membrane, and the capacity of that cell decreases. So the top cell loses capacity, but at the same time, the other cells are chronically undercharged.
A battery that lacks a BMS system will let the cells overcharge, our motorcycles do not have any ability to shunt excess power to ground when the battery reaches full charge. A Lead acid battery, esp. the modern VRLA and AGM units, tolerate it just fine and don't appear to suffer much in the way of dendrites and other uglyness.

If the battery starts with a set of tightly matched cells, it will delay the onset of the overcharge/undercharge cycle, but it won't prevent it. A good BMS system will use a DC-DC converter to regulate the voltage and current fed to the cells and a bleed resistor array to shunt power from the high cells while the low cells continue to charge. Charging will shut off when the low cell reaches full capacity. This is easy to do on a spacecraft designed to use a battery of this type, it is not so easy to retrofit a motorcycle with an 'always-on' charging system. Any BMS used with the charging system we've got on our bikes will need to shunt all excess power to heat, I don't see any of that in the current crop of LiIon batteries.
And none of this addresses the thermal management issues of these batteries. Heat kills LiIon. Cold kills LiIon. We got around the heat problem by attaching the battery to an actively cooled heatsink. Cold was overcome by attaching heaters to the case. All the batteries I built used prismatic cells, which are far easier to manage from a thermal perspective than cylindricals, which are the cells used in every LiIon battery sold for motorcycles. I've seen active cooling systems for cylindricals, but the water jackets are heavy and require their own hardware. They do have a benefit in being able to maintain the battery at a stable temperature, but again, I don't see this feature on the offerings for our market.
Some of The stuff I worked on 5 years ago still hasn't reached the civilian market, it may never get there.


ah... makes sense why you think all that... well dump all that out the window. Li-ion or lithium cobalt required an entirely different set of protections.

li-ion is an inherently unstable chemistry in that it will accept a charge long as it's delivered, until thermal runaway occurs about 4.35v or so. so special protections had to be built in to prevent this from happening.

main disadvantage of LiFePO4 is energy density is about 1/2 of Lithium cobalt. but so much more stable. most importantly 4x 3.0v-3.6v = 13v-13.6v falls within our motorcycle's 12v electrical system. vs lithium cobalt 3.7v-4.2v range doesn't match 12v systems without some type of voltage stepup or down.

now days BMS can be a full blown protection circuit that can isolate entire load. or the most commonly used scheme is to use four individual boards that protects each cell individually. when that particular cell reaches full charge cutoff at say 3.65v. rest of cells that have not reached cutoff will continue to charge until cutoff is reached. that that point excess current is shunted off.

note how each individual cell is protected by a independent BMS. picture shows a true 20 amp hour LiFePO4 battery. originally designed for electric scooters.

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Old 12-06-2012, 12:54 PM   #260
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Look at what just came in the door....

The very nice folks at Earth-X Lithium Batteries just sent me two LiFePO4 batteries with internal BMS for testing. No promises were made except their batteries would be tested fairly in real world conditions. (BMS = battery management system)

It's almost a given that a quality LiFePO4 battery if sized correctly will start your bike in nice weather. But the real question is how will that high tech LiFePO4 battery perform when it gets cold?

Since winter is just getting started.. we should have plenty of opportunities to see how Earth-X LiFePO4 batteries with internal BMS performs in cold weather.

More to come ....


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Old 12-06-2012, 01:34 PM   #261
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glazed eyeball alert ... from recent research

translated: as temperature goes down your LiFePO4 battery's internal resistance goes up, reducing amount of amps available to start your engine.

-----------
LiFePO4battery performances testing and analyzing for BMS

Dr. Languang Lu, Department of Automotive Engineering,
Tsinghua University, ECG (Engine Control Group) Aug.2011
----------
The maximum ability discharge current (SOF)
① The ability discharge current (the lowest voltage is 2.5V per cell) is strongly connected with temperature. The lower temperature, the lower ability to discharge current because of high resistance under low temperature. The ability current at -20℃ is about 20% of that at room temperature.

② the SOF also concern with SOC, the lower SOC, the lower SOF because of the high resistance. The ability discharge current at 10%SOC is about 40% of that at 90%SOC

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Old 12-06-2012, 05:18 PM   #262
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The cold starting problems with the Lithium Phosphate batteries will keep me away from them. To me the weight savings is not worth the trouble of trying and possibly not being able to start the bike after a cold night of camping in the mountains.

Normally I'm all about technology, but this still needs more development before I'd ever buy one. If I lived in Phoenix or Tucson I'd have one in a heartbeat though.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:35 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by TheMuffinMan View Post
The cold starting problems with the Lithium Phosphate batteries will keep me away from them. To me the weight savings is not worth the trouble of trying and possibly not being able to start the bike after a cold night of camping in the mountains.

Normally I'm all about technology, but this still needs more development before I'd ever buy one. If I lived in Phoenix or Tucson I'd have one in a heartbeat though.
properly sized LiFePO4 batteries combined with correct cold starting procedure makes cold starts without issue.

is it for everyone? not by a long shot, but for some folks those are among the cheapest pounds to shed. compared to what some folks spend to save a few oz on carbon fiber parts...

that's why for most folks my recommendation is go with AGM. unless those 10lb or so saved are worth the $$$ and relearning cold start procedures.

again... properly size LiFePO4 batteries combined with correct cold start procedures have proven themselves to be rugged and dependable.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:19 AM   #264
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A123 bankruptcy

Apologies if this is slightly off-topic, or if everyone following this (interesting) thread knows this already, but having ploughed gently through all xxx pages of it, A123 cells come up quite a bit, so did you know this...
http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2012/1...ngle_page=true

:o
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:01 AM   #265
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glazed eyeball alert ...

translated: temperature to amp hour relationship remains at 90% down to 0 C (32f)
but then drops rapidly to about 75% at -10C (-14f)

most folks don't ride below 32f, but some Adv riders do.
Adv bikes have some of the most demanding starting requirements.

-----------
LiFePO4battery performances testing and analyzing for BMS

The relationship between battery capacity and temperature
The lower temperature the less available capacity, but when the temperature is
more than 15 C, the available capacity is essentially the same. At 15C the
available capacity is 98% of that at 25C. The capacity remain 90% at 0C. The
capacity remain 74.5% (cut off voltage 2.5V) and 87% (cut off voltage 2.0V) at -
10C . The capacity remain 56% (cut off voltage 2.5V) and 72% (cut off voltage
2.0V) at -20C .

Analyzing:The lower temperature, the higher resistance of the battery (reference
to the slide in resistance analyzing ) , so that in the same cut off voltage, the lower
available capacity.




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Old 12-08-2012, 11:23 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfdodoadv View Post
Apologies if this is slightly off-topic, or if everyone following this (interesting) thread knows this already, but having ploughed gently through all xxx pages of it, A123 cells come up quite a bit, so did you know this...
http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2012/1...ngle_page=true

:o
China's Wanxiang wins auction for U.S. government-backed A123

China's largest maker of auto parts won a politically sensitive auction for A123 Systems Inc , a bankrupt maker of batteries for electric cars that was funded partly with U.S. government money, A123's investment banker said on Saturday.

Timothy Pohl of Lazard Freres said Wanxiang Group Corp's bid of about $260 million topped a joint bid from Johnson Controls Inc of Milwaukee and Japan's NEC Corp for the maker of lithium-ion batteries.

Siemens AG of Germany had also qualified to bid, according to two people familiar with the auction, who asked not to be identified. The auction began on Thursday.

Chinese companies have launched $51.3 billion worth of outbound deals this year, making it Asia's second-biggest spender on overseas acquisitions behind Japan, according to Thomson Reuters data.

While state-owned oil giants continue to dominate outbound deals, recently Chinese companies have targeted deals aimed at securing technology know-how. That shift is supported by China's five-year development plan that puts emphasis on industries such as high-end manufacturing equipment.

Earlier this year, Shandong Heavy Industry Group agreed to buy a quarter stake in Germany's Kion Group , giving China access to industrial technology from the world's number two fork lift truck maker.

Before that, Xuzhou Construction Machinery Group agreed to buy a majority stake in privately held German machinery manufacturer Schwing, while Sany Heavy Industry bought rival Putzmeister in a 360 million euro ($472 million) deal.

Wanxiang, one of the largest non-government-owned companies in China, has annual revenue of more than $13 billion and supplies auto parts to many of China's largest automakers.

POLITICAL BACKLASH

News of Wanxiang's winning bid comes only a day after the Canadian government approved a controversial deal allowing China's state-owned oil company CNOOC to buy energy company Nexen Inc for $15.1 billion.

Wanxiang's approach for A123 had stirred a political storm and one U.S. politician was quick to warn about A123 and its sensitive, U.S. taxpayer-financed technology falling into the hands of a Chinese company.

"Given the thin line between Wanxiang and the Chinese government, I am concerned about the government of China having access to sensitive technologies being used by our military forces," said a statement from Congressman Bill Huizenga, a Republican from Michigan where A123 has plants.

The sale did not include parts of A123's business that works with the U.S. Defense Department, a source close to the deal said. That portion of the company went to another bidder, which the source did not identify.

The sale must be approved by Delaware Bankruptcy Court judge Kevin Carey at a hearing scheduled for Tuesday.

Opposition to the deal will likely focus on the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, which would need to approve the sale to Wanxiang.

U.S. politicians and retired military leaders have already pressed the government panel to reject Wanxiang.

Separately, the U.S. government has also said it must give its consent before its $249 million grant to A123 can be transferred to a new owner. The battery maker can still draw $120 million under various government grants, according to court records.

It was unclear if the grant would be transferred to Wanxiang.

A123, whose customers include Fisker Automotive, General Motors Co , BMW and the U.S. military, received the U.S. government grant as part of a program to promote clean energy.

Wanxiang has had its eyes on A123 for a while. The Chinese company struck a $465 million investment deal meant to save A123 from bankruptcy earlier this year. That agreement fell apart after A123 failed to meet certain criteria, according to court documents.

The Chinese company is no stranger to investing in the United States.

Wanxiang generates about $1 billion in revenue in the United States by supplying parts to GM and Ford Motor Co and has bought or invested in more than 20 U.S. companies, many of them in bankruptcy, said a congressional report.

Those past investments could help Wanxiang get approval to buy A123, but the deal will be closely scrutinized because it involves advanced technology, said Andrew Szamosszegi, who wrote the report for the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.

A123 filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October.

The money from the auction will go toward paying off A123's creditors. The company listed liabilities of $376 million when it filed for bankruptcy.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classi...0,715651.story
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:09 PM   #267
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Wow, 18 pages of battery talk.

This ain't rocket science. All you need is a good vehicle charging system and if not a daily driver, a good battery charger, both which can be easily verified. Note, don't believe manufacturer's claims. I've done enough testing in the lab to know the majority of the claims are pure BS.

Best battery for vehicle use taking cost into account? Well I am seeing 16 years+ out of a plain old flooded lead acid battery that has to tolerate sub zero demands. That is tough to beat and to boot, that type of battery is far less sensitive to charging methods. I don't waste my time with AGM, GEL, etc simply because vehicles don't need what they have to offer. End of story!
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
A123 filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October.
That explains why I'm not getting calls from them regarding 6T batteries.

Government grants? Don't get me going. How to pi$$ away a bunch of money into the pockets of a few using my tax dollars.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:57 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Wow, 18 pages of battery talk.

This ain't rocket science. All you need is a good vehicle charging system and if not a daily driver, a good battery charger, both which can be easily verified. Note, don't believe manufacturer's claims. I've done enough testing in the lab to know the majority of the claims are pure BS.

Best battery for vehicle use taking cost into account? Well I am seeing 16 years+ out of a plain old flooded lead acid battery that has to tolerate sub zero demands. That is tough to beat and to boot, that type of battery is far less sensitive to charging methods. I don't waste my time with AGM, GEL, etc simply because vehicles don't need what they have to offer. End of story!
wet lead/acid had it's time ... for motorcycle batteries cost for AGM has come down very close to wet.

AGM for Adv bikes has the advantage of not spilling when your bike does go down. don't know of very many folks who has not dropped their adv bike at some point. that is if one goes off road any at all.

another huge advantage is very low self discharge. NO battery tender is needed providing you don't have parasitic drain. vs wet PB self discharges at a substantial rate. let any battery go down too far it may not come back up. this goes double for lead acid, which sulfates pretty quick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
That explains why I'm not getting calls from them regarding 6T batteries.

Government grants? Don't get me going. How to pi$$ away a bunch of money into the pockets of a few using my tax dollars.
apologies for the rant .. as this is suppose to be a technical thread...

what a total crock of shit! technologies paid by US tax payer $$$ is falling into hands of other countries. not to mention another 120+ million US tax payer dollars in funding already approved.

sure hope this deal gets blocked!
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:49 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
wet lead/acid had it's time ... for motorcycle batteries cost for AGM has come down very close to wet.
Still too finicky with respect to charging. FLAs can take more abuse and we all know how abused batteries are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
AGM for Adv bikes has the advantage of not spilling when your bike does go down. don't know of very many folks who has not dropped their adv bike at some point. that is if one goes off road any at all.
Catch bottle with cotton.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
another huge advantage is very low self discharge. NO battery tender is needed providing you don't have parasitic drain.
But the problem is you do have drain. The advantage of the insignificant self discharge in a VRLA battery is insignificant compared to what the standby drain is in all vehicles. You have to disconnect the battery or use a maintainer. Not a "plus" unless you plan to store the battery on a shelf.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
apologies for the rant...what a total crock of shit! technologies paid by US tax payer $$$ is falling into hands of other countries. not to mention another 120+ million US tax payer dollars in funding already approved.

sure hope this deal gets blocked!
Rant on. Somebody will get paid off and the deal will go through. If you think corruption only exists outside of North America, you're dreaming.
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