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Old 04-20-2013, 01:42 PM   #436
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
Shorai makes a special charger now that plugs into the 5-pin 4S balance port connector, which is located between the two main terminals and covered by a gray rubber cover.

Anyone familiar with RC hobbies will recognize the connector and probably already have programmable balancing chargers that can do the job. The connectors can be had at most RC hobby shops, but you need to understand balancing chargers. Shorai's charger is automatic, just plug and go. That said, I have not bought the Shorai charger because I do have an RC programmable charger that can top off each cell to the max, but I don't see the point in doing that. The cell levels will just drop down rapidly to whatever your bikes single-point charging system provides and that's the environment it has to live in or it's not a true drop-in replacement.

LifePo4 don't have a "desulphate" cycle or anything like that to 'refresh', in fact they absolutely do not want you to use a charger with a "desulphate" cycle. A standard Deltran Battery Tender 1.5A is approved. Contact Shorai before you charge them at a higher rate, don't ask me how I know. Keep in mind one benefit of the Lithium batts is they hold a charge level much longer than lead/acid so they don't really need "topping off" if your bikes charging system is working properly.
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In the field longer term report, few thousand miles on the bike, a lot of rough offroad and the battery is still working perfectly. Never been on a charger, even when is sits a few months. Starts right up, hot or cold.
it's been over a year since your first post ... glad to hear good results from your Shorai LFX 14.

RC folks were among the world's first user of Li-ion packs. No one pushes battery packs harder than the RC crowd. they were among the first to push LiFePO4 battery packs by overcharging on purpose. just to see what would happen.... test to destruction!

they found out that yes it was possible to catch LiFePO4 packs on fire ... but LiFePO4 packs had to be severely overcharged/abused. vs lipo packs catching on fire was a fairly common event.

conclusion was that LiFePO4 packs were inherently safe and delivered substantially higher number of charge cycles. drawback was lower energy density and different voltages.

cell voltage didn't match older Lithium cobalt operating range of 3.65 to 4.2v fully charged. vs LiFePO4 cell operating range 3.2v (20% level) to 3.65v fully charged.

fortunately for us Advriders .. LiFePO4 voltage matches perfectly with almost all 12v charging systems. 4s = 12.85v(20%) to 14.6v fully charged. which matches perfectly with a normal 12v charging system voltage of 13.8v to 14.2v. note one should not discharge LiFePO4 below 12.85v for max life.

to clarify why it's not advisable to use std chargers designed for lead acid batteries on LiFePO4. exception is unless LiFePO4 mfg has specifically tested that charger's charging voltage range and has decided it will not hurt their LiFePO4 battery.

chargers with de-sulfate mode can raise voltage high as 15.9v. charger used should not exceed 14.6v max. just as important, charger should have a true float mode that goes down to about 13.6v. some AGM chargers will charge at 14.8v, then go down to 13.1v for float.

worst yet .. some lead acid chargers/tenders will charge at 14.8v without a float mode. those will kill both AGM and LiFePO4, if one leaves charger attached for extended periods.

one of the two battery chargers Yuasa sent me for testing. SmartShot 900 battery maintainer matches charging voltage for LiFePO4. during absorption stage charging voltage 14.2v to 14.6v. then when current drops very low milliamps. SmartShot 900 switches to true float mode. volts drop to 13.2v to 13.6v a match for LiFePo4.



_cy_ screwed with this post 04-20-2013 at 03:46 PM
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:45 AM   #437
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(post in progress, more details will be added, but I wanted to get it up... some posts are result of many hours of work)

Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger uses technology unlike any other charger. Optimate LiFePO4 charger allows use of LiFePo4 battery packs without balance ports/internal BMS. It does this by a clever use of internal resistance naturally generated by each cell near end of charge cycle.

By switching off charging before LiFePO4 battery is fully charged. Voltage falls under fully charged threshold. then charger begins to deliver voltage/current again. by repeating this process, Optimate Lithium allows lower voltage cells a chance to catch up to cells with higher voltage. result is a fully charged LiFePO4 battery with balanced cells. with or without internal BMS. with or without external balance ports/RC type charger.

note this test is still in progress ... jury is still out on how far Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger will recover badly unbalanced cells.

unpacking Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger from the very_knowledgeable folks at TecMate.



very well thought out packaging with extra leads to install on your bike for easy on bike charging



first charge test with 20AH actual prismatic Thundersky cell battery with all cells within 1/4v or less. here indicator light shows Optimate testing condition before switching to
appropriate mode.



Optimate LiFePO4 switches to charge mode, then slowly ramps up voltage



Optimate switches to optimize mode ... this is where Optimate lithium does it's magic. Optimate LiFePo4 measures internal resistance, which decides Optimate how voltage/current is delivered.

apologies for needing to dive into technical mumbo jumbo, but it's necessary to explain how Optimate works. all cells absorb current at different rates, this is decided by internal resistance generated by each cell. during absorption stage of charge, current accepted by cell goes down to milliamp rates.

normally an intelligent charger will then revert to float mode once millamps deliver rates has gone to almost zero. Optimate has taken advantage of this process. by stopping charge before
current absorption rates reaches close to zero. by stopping charge .. voltage of 4s cells drops as full charge are not reached yet ...

charge is started back up again, allowing cells at lower voltage a chance to accept current. while cells at higher voltage accepts less current. this process of charging, then stopping charge, then repeating ... using internal resistance to tell when battery has reached optimal charge.



Optimate goes into float mode when LiFePO4 battery is fully charged with all cells balanced. all cells measures very close in voltage .. but this battery started out balanced. later tests will start with cell unbalanced.


_cy_ screwed with this post 04-25-2013 at 12:18 AM
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #438
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Guys,

what would you please recommend for the 12GS 2013 LC?

Shorai LFX21A6-BS12 or something else?

Long story short, I want to keep the weight as low as possible.

Does it have GOOD PROTECTIVE CIRCUITS?

http://www.shoraipower.com/Products/...21A6-BS12.html

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Old 04-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #439
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
Guys,

what would you please recommend for the 12GS 2013 LC?

Shorai LFX21A6-BS12 or something else?

Long story short, I want to keep the weight as low as possible.

Does it have GOOD PROTECTIVE CIRCUITS?

http://www.shoraipower.com/Products/...21A6-BS12.html
a few questions need to be answered first ... what is the intended use of your super cooooool 2013 R12GS?

starbuck duties always leaving from home base with heated garage and full support?

or is your R12GS intended for adventure duties including cold conditions far from support?

what's the parasitic drain measured in milliamps from all those hi-tech gadgets on R12GS?
if your R12GS needs a maintainer.. Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger is recommended.

Shorai LFX21 actual amp hour is about 7AH ... if parasitic drain is very high, any low AH batteries will run down in short order. PB/EQ has zero bearing on actual current drain.

Shorai LFX21 has no internal BMS or battery management systems. unless Shorai has recently added BMS.

for starbuck duties you might get by with a Shorai LFX24 or EarthX ETX24 (LFX21 is too small) ... for Adventure duties IMHO your chances of being happier with LiFePO4 batteries on a 2013 R12GS is to go with either Shorai LFX36 or EarthX ETX36 ...

note above recommendations are based on R1200GS. New LC could draw lower cranking amps and get by with a smaller LiFePO4, if one is more concerned with lower weight vs reserve AH capacity and only operating in warm conditions. in which case the two LiFePO4 choices would be Antigravity 8 cell and EarthX ETX18. these two LiFePO4 batteries deliver exceptional cranking performance and might do the job? (both are about 4.6AH actual)

all EarthX has internal BMS. for smaller LiFePO4 batteries EarthX has outperformed Shorai on 200amp cranking tests by a substantial margin. Shorai LFX36 has done an outstanding job on a long term tests including brutal starts at 20f. EarthX ETX36 is just getting started on long terms tests but has performed equal to LFX36.

Shorai LFX36 = 4lb 14oz .. EarthX ETX36 = 3lb 11oz .. both are about 14AH actual


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Old 04-23-2013, 12:32 AM   #440
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...

looks like I got to the right place :)

thanks for reply -- I'm daily commuter to Prague = slightly colder climate, than N.Y. or so.

Dont have a heated garage, but rarely starting engine below ~2 C = 35 F.

Ad. adventure use -- for a trip to a Nordkapp, I can bring the original lead battery back.

---

ad. parasitic drain -- dont know yet. But I do ride almost daily, so the parasitic drain should not be an issue, I hope.

---

anyway -- I do definitely prefer a battery WITH BMS. Don't want to have anything with lithium untamed in my anything, especially a brand new bike

btw: that EarthX ETX24 looks REALLY great... 1,1 kgs are almost ideal.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:41 AM   #441
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btw: Shorai LFX24 weights almost 4lbs.. that's much more, than EarthX ETX24's 2,4 lbs...
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:50 AM   #442
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battery compartment on the LC:





will have to check it.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:19 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
btw: Shorai LFX24 weights almost 4lbs.. that's much more, than EarthX ETX24's 2,4 lbs...
note that's 2lb 4oz or 1035 gram for EarthX ETX24 ... if $$$ is not an issue and if you need a LiFePO4 with BMS my recommendations is go with ETX36 at 3lb 11oz = 1673 gram.

saving 638 gram (22oz) vs ETX24... IMHO is not a good strategic place to do it. what you will losing is reserve capacity in extreme cold temps. what counts is battery's ability to maintain voltage (drop) during extended 200+ amp cranks. higher the volts, faster your starter will crank over.

by the way .. it flat gets cold in NY ... at -10c or 14f LiFePO4 loses 1/2 it's AH capacity. so cold weather starting procedures to warm up battery is necessary.

go back a few pages and review brutal 200amp cranking tests for EarthX ETX24 ... unlikely warm weather starts on R12GS will be a problem. but if you get temps similar to NY where you are at ... it gets cold in NY!

LiFePO4's performance at 20f is completely different than at 39f .. say it takes 150amp peak, then drops to 100amp to normally crank over your bike. at 20f .. your bike could be drawing 250amp+ with way longer crank times.

this is where modern bikes have an advantage over test mule R80G/S airhead. cranking times for modern fuel injected bikes will normally be 1-3 seconds even at colder temps (assuming it's in good tune). whereas R80G/S could need 30+ seconds of cranking at 20f to start.

however .. should you get a batch of bad fuel in your high tech marvel being able to crank & crank & crank & crank could make the difference between getting your bike going again vs an expensive $$$ trip to the dealership. high probability hooking 12v directly to fuel injection pump, then cranking and cranking and cranking, while banging on pump will get your bike going again. this is where having a LiFePO4 battery with reserve AH comes in ...

but we all know brand new bikes never give problems

EarthX ETX24 at 2lb 4.4oz or 1035 gram

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Old 04-23-2013, 09:00 AM   #444
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Way above my head

Wow, i have come to the right place as you all know much more about electronics/batteries than I do... I need to ask a simple battery question.

I have a 2008 R1200GSA and need to replace the battery but I dont want to break the bank. I ride a couple of times a week and keep my bike in the garage and have a trickle charger. What do you all recommend? AGM? I dont have a bunch of electronics on it, just a GPS that i only use when i go on long trips, no need for it around town. Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:36 AM   #445
_cy_ OP
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Originally Posted by S-Tex View Post
Wow, i have come to the right place as you all know much more about electronics/batteries than I do... I need to ask a simple battery question.

I have a 2008 R1200GSA and need to replace the battery but I dont want to break the bank. I ride a couple of times a week and keep my bike in the garage and have a trickle charger. What do you all recommend? AGM? I dont have a bunch of electronics on it, just a GPS that i only use when i go on long trips, no need for it around town. Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
S-Tex
thanks for asking ... my std recommendation is go with AGM, unless saving weight means more than saving $$$.

one advantage AGM shares with LiFePO4 is a low self discharge. like cars some late model bikes have loads of on board electronics which comes with a hefty parasitic drain. it's important to only use a battery maintainer that mates with your battery's charge profile. some battery tenders/chargers will kill both AGM and LiFePO4 if left on for extended time periods.

an excellent AGM is Odyssey 925 @ 28AH .. main drawback is 925's weight is 24lb ...vs EarthX ETX36 (3lb 11oz) or Shorai LFX (4lb 4oz) both about 14AH actual.

saves 21lb by using EarthX ETX36 or saves 20lb with Shorai LFX36 .... without losing performance.

one can also go with a medium sized AGM and be good.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:07 PM   #446
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this is a great thread! i spent some serious time reading each of the post. i learned a lot. i have been running the shorai 18ah in my r1 for a year without any negative effects.

thanks for the post
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:42 PM   #447
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veetwo _tls congrats on the fix!!!

We have tested this "Antigravity" battery over the course of a few days, and it is functioning correctly.
It has not dropped below 13.1V and we have used to it start and run a GSXR1000 repeatedly. The battery appears to be OK.

After speaking to Antigravity we believe that this battery is simply not suitable for your bike, especially with the extra accessories fitted (lights, GPS etc)
While the lithium batteries offer many advantages over lead acid/AGM batteries (lightweight, high CCA, no drainage) the area they lack is in AMP/hour capacity.

This is the recommended battery for the KTM 950, but only in stock settings. One option is to go for a bigger battery with more AMP/hours, but it will be a physically larger battery, if you have room in your battery box for a larger battery?

We are able to take this battery back for a refund if the above solution is not suitable.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #448
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this is a great thread! i spent some serious time reading each of the post. i learned a lot. i have been running the shorai 18ah in my r1 for a year without any negative effects.

thanks for the post
thanks for sharing your experience with Shorai LFX18 ..LiFePO4 is so new, all real world feedback is appreciated!

really surprised you managed to plow through all the posts normally it puts most folks to sleep zzzzz...

do my best to stay away from technical mumbo jumbo, unless there is just no way around it. thanks for reading ...
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:04 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
thanks for sharing your experience with Shorai LFX18 ..LiFePO4 is so new, all real world feedback is appreciated!

really surprised you managed to plow through all the posts normally it puts most folks to sleep zzzzz...

do my best to stay away from technical mumbo jumbo, unless there is just no way around it. thanks for reading ...
im pretty technical myself even tho i am young.
in my cruiser which is a 2006 vulcan 900, i put a lfx 18 in it. however, similar to what you or somebody else posted, the stock charging circuit was not good enough (a common problem in my bike) so i actually replaced the rectifier with new mosfet one. it makes a difference somewhat because now even after leaving my bike outside at night time where temps fall into the low 30s, the bike still spins up right away even with an alarm on.

and fluke meters are the best! i was actually going to buy one of their clamp meters but it was way too much for me to justify spending, so i opted for a klein tools clamp meter. thanks for your hard testing. i am jealous of your working station. i need to get myself one of those amp testers you have.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:37 PM   #450
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im pretty technical myself even tho i am young.
in my cruiser which is a 2006 vulcan 900, i put a lfx 18 in it. however, similar to what you or somebody else posted, the stock charging circuit was not good enough (a common problem in my bike) so i actually replaced the rectifier with new mosfet one. it makes a difference somewhat because now even after leaving my bike outside at night time where temps fall into the low 30s, the bike still spins up right away even with an alarm on.

and fluke meters are the best! i was actually going to buy one of their clamp meters but it was way too much for me to justify spending, so i opted for a klein tools clamp meter. thanks for your hard testing. i am jealous of your working station. i need to get myself one of those amp testers you have.
yup Fluke are good meters .. there's a good reason why Fluke is the choice of working pro's. rugged and repeatable .. meaning test data generated by Fluke is assumed reliable purely due track history.

later on hopefully you'll acquire calibration standards like this Martel MC1000:

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