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Old 10-28-2013, 03:31 AM   #841
ChrisGS1
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Joined: Oct 2013
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Someone just replied that an Ultrabatt lasted him a year...short daily commuting trips, where the engine did not even heat up properly; in 'coldish' weather (between 40-50F). He said after it became colder, the battery progressively lost cca's..this is worrying. Still waiting to hear from Ultrabatt..
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:02 AM   #842
Marki_GSA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGS1 View Post
Someone just replied that an Ultrabatt lasted him a year...short daily commuting trips, where the engine did not even heat up properly; in 'coldish' weather (between 40-50F). He said after it became colder, the battery progressively lost cca's..this is worrying. Still waiting to hear from Ultrabatt..
I imagine running any battery like that would cause it to fail? If the engine hasn't ran long enough to be hot then it hasn't ran long enough to recharge the battery.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:46 AM   #843
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGS1 View Post
Someone just replied that an Ultrabatt lasted him a year...short daily commuting trips, where the engine did not even heat up properly; in 'coldish' weather (between 40-50F). He said after it became colder, the battery progressively lost cca's..this is worrying. Still waiting to hear from Ultrabatt..
need more information .. what model motorcycle .. what size Ultrabatt?
at least we've got basic temp operated at info, which is mild (40-50f) then gave problems as temps dropped.

IMHO most common reason for LiFePO4 failures is too small LiFePO4 got installed.
the dreaded short ride with heated gear, followed by a cold start next morning at say 25f is where having a large AH LiFePO4 like EarthX ETX36 (14AH) or Shorai LFX 36 (14AH) really shines.

both EarthX ETX36 (14AH) and Shorai LFX 36 (14AH) has passed long term tests with flying colors. EarthX ETX36 going on one year, Shorai LFX 36 almost two years. both have survived cold starts at 15f on test mule R80G/S with typical continuous cranking times of 10 to 30 seconds. Amp draws continuous was 250amp+ .. it's well documented within this thread.

LiFePO4 batteries will swallow amps at extremely high rate when in a low state of charge. most LiFePO4 mfg don't factor max charge rate LiFePO4 battery will be subjected to when sizing. this can result in short LiFePO4 battery life.

so yes any moto if driven on all short rides will not have a chance to recharge any battery. but LiFePO4's charging times can be very short due to ability to swallow huge amps. but it needs to be sized where LiFePO4 battery cannot exceed 4C charge rates.

_cy_ screwed with this post 10-28-2013 at 05:58 AM
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:07 AM   #844
_cy_ OP
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here's how calibration is checked. first one must have a meter worth going to trouble of calibrating. sorry $10 meters don't make the bar.

first method is with a calibration standard which puts out user selected values. meter being tested should read same. since most folks don't have access to a calibration standard. go to second method.

reason I go to this much trouble is to insure any hard data posted by me are dead nuts reliable . that anyone can duplicate with lab grade instruments.

here Martel MC-1000 puts out 3.244v .. Fluke 189 reads 3.2439v


second way is to use a primary lithium cell like CR123 which puts out a stable voltage.. 3.22v with a new Fluke 87V which has recently calibrated by Fluke. go to any HVAC store and borrow their meter



compared to Fluke 789 which also puts out 3.22v .. so conclusion is Fluke 789 is within calibration for DC volts.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:13 AM   #845
_cy_ OP
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Originally Posted by overlandr View Post
Alternatively, a spark erosion machine will machine a hole through the centre of the points. This extends the life of the points further by diminishing pitting and deposition between the contact patches.

Hijack over.
more hijack .. from beancan with points vs beancan with electronic ignition thread

=======
anyways ... since I've not been able to find instructions anywhere for actual testing of Halls sensor module. here it is ...

what we are testing is a halls module made up of voltage regulator, trigger circuit and actual Halls sensor.





when magnet passes in front of halls, a signal is generated in millivolts. Fluke 789 process meter is being used. but any precision VOM can be used.

HP regulated power supply putting out about 12v is used to power module. but most any power supply 4.5v to 24V can be used. a 9v battery works fine.

here's a picture showing what wires to test without breaking down beancan.

red (yellow/green) = + ... black (blue) = ground ... green (brown) = signal

after hooking up wires as shown .. rotate beancan shaft, if halls module is working. you will see a millivolt signal for a brief fraction of a second.

intermittent output are the worst ... if you are that deep into beancan .. replace that halls module and be done ... or better yet switch to beancan with points!!!



green & bottom red is from 12v power supply ... middle red and top black is from Fluke 789 set to DC voltage. if halls module is working, a brief milliamp volt signal will show.




when magnet rotates closeby .. millivolt signal is generated sending a signal to ECU which then triggers a spark.
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:32 AM   #846
ChrisGS1
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Shorai recommends this battery for my bike (smaller than the 36):
http://shoraipower.com/products?acti...7391&year=7391

What would the true capacity be for this battery? comparable to the 6.9Ah Ultrabatt?

Paying more than $300-$350 for a battery; is this justifiable? I can have 4 goo lead acid (AGM) batteries for that price that will together give me probably more than 10 years of service life.

Seems the lithium batteries provide higher cca and lightweight for a premium price. Thing is...your not assured of the 8-10 years service life claims.... What if the battery only lasts 4-5 years for some reason? That is NOT value for money, and not worth it
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:37 AM   #847
ChrisGS1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
need more information .. what model motorcycle .. what size Ultrabatt?
at least we've got basic temp operated at info, which is mild (40-50f) then gave problems as temps dropped.

IMHO most common reason for LiFePO4 failures is too small LiFePO4 got installed.
the dreaded short ride with heated gear, followed by a cold start next morning at say 25f is where having a large AH LiFePO4 like EarthX ETX36 (14AH) or Shorai LFX 36 (14AH) really shines.

both EarthX ETX36 (14AH) and Shorai LFX 36 (14AH) has passed long term tests with flying colors. EarthX ETX36 going on one year, Shorai LFX 36 almost two years. both have survived cold starts at 15f on test mule R80G/S with typical continuous cranking times of 10 to 30 seconds. Amp draws continuous was 250amp+ .. it's well documented within this thread.

LiFePO4 batteries will swallow amps at extremely high rate when in a low state of charge. most LiFePO4 mfg don't factor max charge rate LiFePO4 battery will be subjected to when sizing. this can result in short LiFePO4 battery life.

so yes any moto if driven on all short rides will not have a chance to recharge any battery. but LiFePO4's charging times can be very short due to ability to swallow huge amps. but it needs to be sized where LiFePO4 battery cannot exceed 4C charge rates.
It was a BMW 650GS, and the battery was the smaller one: UB400 lite : http://www.bikegear.co.za/f8996045-1...1adaecd-9.html
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:54 PM   #848
_cy_ OP
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Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGS1 View Post
Shorai recommends this battery for my bike (smaller than the 36):
http://shoraipower.com/products?acti...7391&year=7391

What would the true capacity be for this battery? comparable to the 6.9Ah Ultrabatt?

Paying more than $300-$350 for a battery; is this justifiable? I can have 4 goo lead acid (AGM) batteries for that price that will together give me probably more than 10 years of service life.

Seems the lithium batteries provide higher cca and lightweight for a premium price. Thing is...your not assured of the 8-10 years service life claims.... What if the battery only lasts 4-5 years for some reason? That is NOT value for money, and not worth it
Shorai LFX21 is about a 7AH actual battery, hard testing data is buried within this thread. if you cannot justify costs for a properly sized LiFePO4. my recommendations is go with AGM.

I'd rather see you pass on LiFePO4 rather than you be unhappy later when it fails early from being sized too small. properly sized LiFePO4 has proven to be bombproof and trouble free at a fraction of the weight. saved 15lb+ on test mule R80G/S. those are among the cheapest weight saved per lb. for some folks that may not make any difference. others think it's a bargain!
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:38 AM   #849
ChrisGS1
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Here is a write-up on the BMS of the Ultrabatt. anythings special? Does the Shorai (which I see is available in South Africa) also have this BMS?


Benefits of the Ultrabatt Microchip BMS system:

Cell balancing You can charge directly from the bikes alternator and you will never need to balance the cells with an external BMS system.

Why do LiFePO4 batteries need cell balancing during the charging process? With all types of batteries the faster each cell charges the hotter it gets. Charging cells to quickly greatly reduces the lifetime of any type of battery. As each cell in a lead acid battery charges, the internal resistance of the cell increases. If one cell begins to charge faster than the others, it's higher resistance slows down it's charge rate in comparison to the other cells. Hence cells in lead acid batteries automatically limit their charge rate and balance with each other as they charge. As the cells in a LiFePO4 battery charge the opposite occurs, as each cell in a LiFePO4 charges, the internal resistance of the cell decreases. If one cell begins to charge faster than the others, it's lower resistance further speeds up it's charge rate in comparison to the other cells which further decreases it resistance and further increases it's charging rate. Hence cells in Lithium batteries do not automatically balance with each other as they charge. If the charging of each cell is not individually monitored and controlled with a BMS charger the process can lead to thermal runaway and premature failure at best and at worst temperature induced failure.

Over voltage protection: You can charge the battery safely with the bikes alternator. It charges fully within 5 minutes of riding due to the Ultrabatt's low internal resistance. Short rides will now fully charge your battery, regardless of alternator output capacity.

Complete discharge protection: You do have to worry about the battery bricking (getting so flat that it is impossible to re charge it with any type of battery charger)

Short protection: Internal safety fuse. In the event that you have a high current short this fuse will blow to prevent the battery overheating.

NEVER use a lithium battery on a motorcycle that does not have its own short circuit protection.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:39 AM   #850
ChrisGS1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Shorai LFX21 is about a 7AH actual battery, hard testing data is buried within this thread. if you cannot justify costs for a properly sized LiFePO4. my recommendations is go with AGM.

I'd rather see you pass on LiFePO4 rather than you be unhappy later when it fails early from being sized too small. properly sized LiFePO4 has proven to be bombproof and trouble free at a fraction of the weight. saved 15lb+ on test mule R80G/S. those are among the cheapest weight saved per lb. for some folks that may not make any difference. others think it's a bargain!
I can get the LFX24 and LFX27 here in South Africa. These batteries seem a bit heavier than their Earth X counter parts..a good thing?

ChrisGS1 screwed with this post 10-29-2013 at 09:57 AM
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:04 AM   #851
_cy_ OP
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Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGS1 View Post
Here is a write-up on the BMS of the Ultrabatt. anythings special? Does the Shorai (which I see is available in South Africa) also have this BMS?


Benefits of the Ultrabatt Microchip BMS system:

Cell balancing You can charge directly from the bikes alternator and you will never need to balance the cells with an external BMS system.

Why do LiFePO4 batteries need cell balancing during the charging process? With all types of batteries the faster each cell charges the hotter it gets. Charging cells to quickly greatly reduces the lifetime of any type of battery. As each cell in a lead acid battery charges, the internal resistance of the cell increases. If one cell begins to charge faster than the others, it's higher resistance slows down it's charge rate in comparison to the other cells. Hence cells in lead acid batteries automatically limit their charge rate and balance with each other as they charge. As the cells in a LiFePO4 battery charge the opposite occurs, as each cell in a LiFePO4 charges, the internal resistance of the cell decreases. If one cell begins to charge faster than the others, it's lower resistance further speeds up it's charge rate in comparison to the other cells which further decreases it resistance and further increases it's charging rate. Hence cells in Lithium batteries do not automatically balance with each other as they charge. If the charging of each cell is not individually monitored and controlled with a BMS charger the process can lead to thermal runaway and premature failure at best and at worst temperature induced failure.

Over voltage protection: You can charge the battery safely with the bikes alternator. It charges fully within 5 minutes of riding due to the Ultrabatt's low internal resistance. Short rides will now fully charge your battery, regardless of alternator output capacity.

Complete discharge protection: You do have to worry about the battery bricking (getting so flat that it is impossible to re charge it with any type of battery charger)

Short protection: Internal safety fuse. In the event that you have a high current short this fuse will blow to prevent the battery overheating.

NEVER use a lithium battery on a motorcycle that does not have its own short circuit protection.
above article is chocked full of factual inaccuracies .. this is a common problem when marketing collides with correct/actual technical details. problem is most consumers don't know the difference ..

their website makes no mention for most of above claimed protections. can you provide link to where above was posted? did Ultrabatt make above claims?

call me a skeptical asshole, but claims posted on facebook means little to nothing. when it's on the official website, then it may be worth looking into. sorry .. don't believe any LiFePO4 mfg unless I've personally confirmed and/or have hard repeatable data using lab grade instruments from a trusted source like Joel Wiseman.

_cy_ screwed with this post 10-29-2013 at 10:57 AM
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:50 AM   #852
ChrisGS1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
above article is chocked full of factual inaccuracies .. this is a common problem when marketing collides with correct/actual technical details. problem is most consumers don't know the difference ..

their website makes no mention for most of above claimed protections. can you provide link to where above was posted? did Ultrabatt make above claims?
A local retailer selling these batteries responded with this reply. So, maybe not directly from Ultrabatt. I have sent them an email, and they've not replied.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:06 PM   #853
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGS1 View Post
I can get the LFX24 and LFX27 here in South Africa. These batteries seem a bit heavier than their Earth X counter parts..a good thing?
Shorai was one of the earliest LiFePO4 mfg and deserve credit for taking risks by being one of the first to market.

They also were first to use inflated PB/EQ ratings for their LiFePO4 batteries. Evidently they were not the first. for instance Yuasa YTX14 is 12AH, YTX20 is 18AH, etc.

what was different was how much pb/eq figure were now inflated. for instance Shorai LFX21 measured about 7AH actual. others followed suit to compete... EarthX ETX18 is about 5AH actual, etc.

lots of fudging going on for CCA .. putting out 300 amp for 2-3 seconds at room temps means little to nothing. that same battery fails a 30 second 200amp load at room temps. that same LiFePO4 battery would have no hope of performing at say 20f ...

it's extremely confusing to someone purchase what they think is an 18AH LiFePO4 .. when it's actually a 5AH battery.

now shorai is going the other direction by offering several different actual AH batteries marked with same AH rating. for instance LFX14 weight is 1.5 to 2.3lb, the 2.3lb battery will have a higher actual AH but still marked LFX14.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:06 AM   #854
overlandr
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Ok so, if one is thinking AGM battery, have you done any testing on various brands or types of AGMs that provides useful results for advriders.
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Old 10-30-2013, 04:19 AM   #855
_cy_ OP
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Originally Posted by overlandr View Post
Ok so, if one is thinking AGM battery, have you done any testing on various brands or types of AGMs that provides useful results for advriders.
there's extensive testing/writeup on AGM motorcycle batteries out there already. not much point in covering same ground that anyone can find with Google. whereas detailed information on 12v LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries are much harder to come by.

do a search on Google for .. LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries .. this thread currently is first non-paid for result that pops up on Google. reason is simple .. this thread contains the most technical information on motorcycle LiFePO4 on the WWW.

AGM is still the dominant type of motorcycle batteries used. that's not going to change anytime soon. LiFePO4 usage in motorcycle is still in it's infancy. similar to process AGM had to evolve before wholesale adoption.

AGM proved itself decades before being adopted. when cost point dropped almost to flooded lead acid (FLA) .. that's when AGM sales took off.

for most folks AGM is what I recommend in their motorcycles. but if someone is willing to spend the $$$ .. substantial weight savings can be achieved. in terms of lowest costs per Lb saved. LiFePO4 has to be one of the cheapest ways to drop weight.

a properly sized LiFePO4 is one of the best upgrades for your motorcycle!!

_cy_ screwed with this post 10-31-2013 at 12:28 PM
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