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Old 02-18-2013, 01:57 PM   #5701
Mambo Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek View Post
RECON

So I'm still digesting various skills and things and the effects they have on my specific tanks (hence me posting all the timings on my OBJ 704 for loading with BIA, etc). Here's one I was disappointed to find:

100% RECON skill adds 2% to your overall view range.

So for example if you have an SU-122-44 with its whopping () view range of 330m....
2% of 330 is 6.6 meters.
So for tying up all that experience in your commander you now see 337 meters instead of 330
so lower tier tanks that have even smaller view ranges get even less benefit.

I think it is time to change my "recon" crew members to something more beneficial
It's a skill that I'd dedicate to any tank that I also felt was a distance-sniper that would always have binocs. Added to the Binocs bonus, it makes a difference.

But I feel the 122-44 is an assault TD for a number of reasons, so... I didn't go that route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timk519 View Post
That extra few meters can be the difference between being seen and not being seen. Then you get accused of "hacking". :)
I agree, but again the view range is so short that that small bonus is still short of some tanks you'd be fighting that didn't have it... especially if they have binocs. But for all the whining about 'invisible' tanks from those who don't understand the game mecahnics... it does get hilarious. Thanksfully no one in this thread complains that much about invisible tanks being a reality that they contend with.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #5702
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edit: I wrote a big long thing about camo and what it really means in layman's terms.. but I've decided I'm not going to bother.

Sorry if you saw it and it disappeared.

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Old 02-18-2013, 02:02 PM   #5703
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Originally Posted by Geek View Post
Agreed - but wait until I get to the point where I'm comparing a crew member with a RECON value of 100% with the same crew member having a CAMO value of 100% instead - and draw your own conclusions as to which is more important

I can't wait untill you give a full write up of brothers in arms too... along with mentor and the rest...
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:11 PM   #5704
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Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Ok, Most lilkely the oldest kids playing this now,, Thanks to my son, he was doing the World of warcraft, which doesnt woo me, to much play of blast away run all over etc !!
But h ewas playing the tank thing, which you use a bit of strategy and planning. I played his account for a day or so, then did mune as I am a night owl and have usually a few or 4 hours to burn at night.....
Wow, pretty awesome, I am noob still but what I played WARROCK, I was KING !!!! Was LVL 75 and pretty much owned the A10 If anyone played that one, I would care to knopw....
But as a noob on WOT, would love any Clan help, or part of platoon, as I do need help or suggestions...
Screen name Rocket226

Look forward to seeing my inmates in this game !!!!!
I sent you a clan invite and TeamSpeak info.
Log into the WoT website to accept.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:14 PM   #5705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird 928 View Post
I can't wait untill you give a full write up of brothers in arms too... along with mentor and the rest...

Yup.. I normally use mentor for the captain, then deadeye and snapshot for the gunner. Sounds like recon would be useless on the IS. I might have to switch that around.

BTW, I seem to be doing A LOT more damage with the IS and a gunner with deadeye. Fewer non-pens and deflections. That Rick O'Shay guy is annoying.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:27 PM   #5706
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The only thing that needs recon is a passive scout. Even then, it should be the third or maybe even fourth skill.

If you all haven't seen this, take a 30 minute break and watch.



He nailed it. They cannot be serious. I gotta play with that thing tonight.

Edit to add a quote: "It's like driving {an Object 261} around the battlefield in direct fire mode, except you've got better accuracy, better aiming time, better penetration, more damage, armor, and better maneuverability. It's absolutely ridiculous!"
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:21 PM   #5707
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Originally Posted by janeuner View Post
The only thing that needs recon is a passive scout. Even then, it should be the third or maybe even fourth skill.

If you all haven't seen this, take a 30 minute break and watch.



He nailed it. They cannot be serious. I gotta play with that thing tonight.

Edit to add a quote: "It's like driving {an Object 261} around the battlefield in direct fire mode, except you've got better accuracy, better aiming time, better penetration, more damage, armor, and better maneuverability. It's absolutely ridiculous!"
Yes it is as much fun as a Hetzer in a tier 4 battle, BUT.... the biggest difference is without people protecting you or surpressing fire while you are reloading 30 seconds is long enough for an enemy that you did not see to come straight at you and get your side or back to kill you. atleast that is my experience with that tank on the test server. The plus side is while you are alive you have the potential to kill a tank every 30 seconds up to 12 tanks.

Honestly I would have to play it on the real server in a platoon to see how I like it, but my inital impression is that I will stick with the Hetzer.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:42 PM   #5708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek View Post
edit: I wrote a big long thing about camo and what it really means in layman's terms.. but I've decided I'm not going to bother.

Sorry if you saw it and it disappeared.

I would like to have read it, even if for only an introduction and overview.

Did you delete it due to the math being fuzzy, or ...? I imagine you could bring a lot of depth to the veneer of understanding most of us have about it all.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:46 PM   #5709
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Originally Posted by Big Bird 928 View Post
BUT.... the biggest difference is without people protecting you or surpressing fire while you are reloading 30 seconds is long enough for an enemy that you did not see to come straight at you and get your side or back to kill you.
The ability to trigger that response leaves the attacker at a huge disadvantage. In one part because you know what they will do; in another, they don't realize how predictable they are.

Even without HESH, that vehicle will be devastating in pubs.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:46 PM   #5710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
I would like to have read it, even if for only an introduction and overview.

Did you delete it due to the math being fuzzy, or ...? I imagine you could bring a lot of depth to the veneer of understanding most of us have about it all.
I deleted it because I didn't think there was any value in doing it the way I did it.
I really want to break it down so anyone can understand it.. I think I'll break it into a few small pieces and try re-posting?


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Old 02-18-2013, 03:50 PM   #5711
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What are you trying to accomplish with camo?

I *think* I understand the math, but I'd love to test some of it out in the training room sometime. Maybe get Dave to stop saying the Patton is worthless.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:51 PM   #5712
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Originally Posted by Geek View Post
I deleted it because I didn't think there was any value in doing it the way I did it.

I really want to break it down so anyone can understand it.. I think I'll break it into a few small pieces and try re-posting?


meh, just list out the most useful skills for a heavy crew and a TD crew.... math schmath.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:02 PM   #5713
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foreword:
The purpose of me doing this is a "general idea" for those, like me, that want to understand things well enough to make informed decisions about their tank configuration and crew setup - but find the way the wiki is written as to be overwhelming and not worth the digestion.

Yes I will make mistakes with this.

If I make a mistake that is actually relevant to the final point - please correct me.
If you feel the need to correct/nitpick irrelevant things; please feel free to write your own guide rather than picking at mine (or better yet - here's the full facts: http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Battle_...ics#Camouflage ).



CAMO 101 - Part 1 - Tank Base Camo

Pop Quiz:

You just bought a shiny new Lowe. The distance it can see is 400 meters. You are in an empty, unobstructed, flat field approaching a stationary enemy tank that is completely stock - how far away do you see them?

Answer: Not 400 meters. It depends on the tank's base camo value.

In fact, for example you will see a:
Hellcat at 324 meters away.
Priest at 352 meters away.
IS-7 at 372 meters away.

How do you figure this out?

For those who want hard numbers - it is done like this:


...but I have an engineering degree and that still makes my eyes glaze over.. so lets start at the beginning and see what the equation really means.

Step 1: Stock camo value.

Setting aside cover, crew skills, paint jobs, movement, etc... the first value every tank has is a "Camo value".
Every tank has one and it is available in a chart here:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?o7hjrerwjb6172a

When you look at that chart; every tank actually has 3 camo values - one for when stationary, one for when moving, and one for when firing its gun.

Obviously a tank is hardest to see when stationary and easiest to see when firing a gun.

Lets take 3 tanks from the chart as an example and look at what the camo value really means to you - the player:
A Hellcat (tier 6 td), a Priest (tier 4 arti) and an IS-7 (tier 10 heavy).

Hellcat: Stationary: 19 Moving 15.5 Firing 6.43
Priest: Stationary: 12.5 Moving 7.5 Firing 2.74
IS7: Stationary: 7 Moving 1.25 Firing 1.21

So what are those numbers?
What does a value of 19 actually mean?

Camo value is the percentage of visibility THE ENEMY looking at you has vision reduced by..

Think about that for a second - if you have that fancy Lowe with its 400 meter view range and are looking at a plain jane Hellcat in the field - before anything else - that Hellcat has made it so you that you need to get 19% closer to him than your 400 meter view range before you can see him at all. In contrast.. that IS-7 has only reduced your vision 7% because he's a big, non-stealthy heavy tank.

Example:

So for example... lets say your enemy is Dave.. and he is driving his fancy new Tier 7 premium TD - the SU-122-44.
It has a view range of 330 meters stock.
Lets just work with the stationary numbers for the above tanks (as you can extrapolate what the moving and firing numbers do).

So in an open field with no obstacles (or bushes)..Dave can see an obstacle 330 meters away.
(warning: just a tiny bit of math below):
The Hellcat has a value of 19. 19% of 330 meters is 62.7 meter reduction= 267.3.
The Priest has a value of 12.5. 12.5% of 330 meters is 41.25 meter reduction = 288.7
The IS-7 has a value of 7. 7% of 330 meters is 23.1 meter reduction = 306.9

Therefore - using just base values of tank camo:

When Dave approaches us on an unobstructed, open ground, stock tank he will spot:
Sam in his Hellcat at 267 meters away.
John in his Priest at 288 meters away.
and Geek in his IS-7 at 307 meters away.

You can compare that to the Lowe we started the quiz with... unobstructed against stock tanks he will spot:
Hellcat at 324 meters away.
Priest at 352 meters away.
IS-7 at 372 meters away.

It is important to understand this basic Camo value concept before you can effectively look at what you should be doing to your tank both equipment wise, and crew wise.

We will look at those next...

To be continued.

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Old 02-18-2013, 04:04 PM   #5714
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Originally Posted by UngaWunga View Post
meh, just list out the most useful skills for a heavy crew and a TD crew.... math schmath.
That's exactly what I'm going to work up to - the fact that (other than the fact that I like my pretty paint jobs) - camo paint, camo skills, etc can be pretty much useless for certain tanks... and a huge advantage for other tanks. I just need to lay out the foundation so it makes sense as to why.

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Old 02-18-2013, 04:08 PM   #5715
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Originally Posted by janeuner View Post
What are you trying to accomplish with camo?

I *think* I understand the math, but I'd love to test some of it out in the training room sometime. Maybe get Dave to stop saying the Patton is worthless.
I'm not trying to accomplish anything... I personally am just finally understanding subsystems like camo that with certain tanks a camo net can be left off and that slot can be used for more helpful things... as well as with the crew - camo training for the crew for some tanks would better be used for other things because when you do the math the numbers point to very little effect.

....as I'm figuring this out (with real world facts as opposed to guessing or hear-say) I thought that others that haven't had time to go through it all might find it interesting.

Those of you that understand the system precisely will find no value in my posts.

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