NHSTA Opens Investigation into BMW Final Drive Failures

[roarin calhoun]

Ya know, there is(used to be,anyway) a toll free number for BMW headquarters in New Jersy(USA) in your manual. I called it a LOT about a lemon RT I bought new in the 1990s. Since I no longer have the GS I'm not interested enough to call,but maybe you are. Try it. See what BMW says. Why not ?

[Ray R]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

319 posts in two weeks! WOW!

let me stew this down, let me know if I miss anything.

Thank you. You just saved me valuable time! It is truly appreciated.

Now could you please go do the same thing in the "Hotrodding the GS" thread?

[GrahamD]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

they instead decimate info to their franchises....

Freudian slip?

[whisperquiet]

Originally Posted by JoelWisman

Now this is an important and honest question. When people refer to "BMW", what are they referring to?

Are we saying an independent franchise stonewalled?

One of the guys or chicks that answer the customer relations phones?

BMW of north America?

BMW of some other country?

BMW Motorrad, AKA The motorcycle manufacture?

BMW Group, the parent company of motorcycle and car manufacturing?


I can't think of any major corporation that has a newspaper or weekly radio address that says "this is how we screwed the pooch this week".

In my experience, Germany did okay at informing BMW NA of ongoing issues, and NA did fantastic at informing dealerships.

Many MANY BMW dealerships have service managers that are idiots, intact it's the rule to which there are few exceptions. I'm not suggesting that they aren't nice people or un-friendly, just that they have no idea what management is, and spend more time talking then listening.

But...... If you read the service bulletins of which there are perhaps 5 or 6 a week, and occasionally glance around and see what the techs are working on, it is super easy for a service manager, service writer or shop foreman to know whats going on, what is failing and how often.

If you interview your customers well, take notes and jot down some numbers, you can even imperially prove when and why most issues are happening.

Heck, 3 out of 4 of BMW's field service engineers are very responsive and will just spell it out to you if you ask, mine always did.

BMW is not going to respond to every little post on a forum, they instead decimate info to their franchises, so, why not just ask at a franchise, and if they blow smoke, go to a different franchise.

Yes, many franchises are awful but BMW has very little control of their franchises, no manufacture does. BMW customers have all the control of franchises in the world. If yours won't answer questions, go to another.

Agreed..........some dealers/reps suck........others are great and will got to bat for you----Gateway BMW is a great dealership IMHO (and I don't even own a BMW currently).

That said......BMW took care of the EWS ring and fuel controller issues, and at a minimum (just like Harley did with the early Twin Cam engines) fix all final drive problems that might impact an owner for 50,000 miles/5 years. The bike is touted as a tough, ride it anywhere/around the world, motorcycle...............and, a high percentage of the LTs and GS bikes ARE trouble free, but that does not matter if YOUR bike strands you in the middle of nowhere.

[TuefelHunden]

+ + more + even more = an infinite loop!

We AIN'T gonna solve this one! And for the guys who are saying BMW (whichever BMW you like) is going to "STONEWALL" NHTSA, why don't you ask Toyota how their tactics worked for them?

[GrahamD]

Don't click on the link TuefelHunden...

[JoelWisman]

Originally Posted by TuefelHunden

+ + more + even more = an infinite loop!

We AIN'T gonna solve this one! And for the guys who are saying BMW (whichever BMW you like) is going to "STONEWALL" NHTSA, why don't you ask Toyota how their tactics worked for them?

For cars, yes. When I was an FSE for Volvo, we lived in terror of the NHTSA.

NHTSA considers motorcycles "inherently" dangerous and pretty much leaves them alone. BMW does recalls on their bikes all the time, but all of them I know of were voluntary. BMW USA does them for litigation protection and occasionally to force DE's hand.

For what it is worth, the old R12GS/GSA final drives were mediocre. On average, they were cheaper then the sprockets and chains that would have needed replacement on the model as a whole, had it been chain drive, but they were nothing to write home about, or feel the sky is falling about.

The updated one with the vent is SUPPOSED to be more solid. I saw an "NA eyes only" engineering document of all the changes, it looks like a very positive step, but only time will tell for certain.

The vent will suck in water in some situations. I have seen this with my own eyes on multiple customer bikes.

If you like submarining, replace the rubber duck bill with a hose and run it up high. I would drill a hole slightly smaller in the top of the air box and stuff the hose through there. The air box isn't often flooded and if it is you need to change the engine oil anyway so adding the final is no big deal.

There, someone that used to work for a franchise just acknowledged the old 12GS/GSA finals weren't as solid as we would have liked, feel better?

[Sigster]

Internet time machine link to http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com

http://web.archive.org/web/201005281...ilure_list.php

285 entries when it got last recorded (May 2010)


And the LT guys estimate 3...4 % failure rate
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/faq.php?...ardrivefailure


-S

[Geografo]

Originally Posted by Sigster

Internet time machine link to http://www.bmwfinaldrive.com

http://web.archive.org/web/201005281...ilure_list.php

285 entries when it got last recorded (May 2010)

I checked through this thread, counting number of R1200GS's listed, since I own one. By tabulating comments on failure, I determined the following: I counted a total of 14 R1200 GS "failures"--6 were described to be actual failures wherein the bikes were "maintained properly by the dealer"; 3 were described to be leaks' 1 was described as "runout of hub" (don't know, is that a leak, or a hub coming apart?); and 3 were described as failures, but the owner described seeing a leak and riding on a number of miles afterwards, BEFORE the fail.


And the LT guys estimate 3...4 % failure rate
http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/faq.php?...ardrivefailure

They also say that MOST are due to leaks around the seals.

-S

MY $.02 WORTH: After finding out from the P.O. of my bike after he sold it to me about the final drive failure issue, I have been reading these threads (Btw--the P.O. told this in a message wherein he offered to buy the bike back because he was having second thoughts, and then told me about a "sweet" farkled-out R11000GS with only 12,000 miles for $8000.00--I politely told him "no thanks, I think I'll keep THIS one").

My conclusion: Check for oil on the rear hub and vicinity, check for unusual sounds, think about buying a used rear drive from ebay or beemerboneyard, and keep enjoying the bike I own rather than worry too much about what might happen. From what I can tell, my chances of being hit by some cager on a cellphone and seriously injured or killed, either on my bike or in my Toyota, is probably greater than my final drive failing. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about either, although both are always in the back of my mind. Shit happens, ya know? I'd rather be stuck in some out-of-the-way place fixing my final drive than sitting here writing this message. To me, that is the very spirit of adventure. Although my experience as an adventure rider is not so much, my experience with adventures is pretty long, hence my user name (Hint: it is also my profession).

Nor am I willing to sell or trade-in my nearly paid-off GS to go back into debt to buy one of the competitors' bikes. Maybe a few years down the road I will, but then again, maybe not.

[tagesk]

Originally Posted by Geografo

From what I can tell, my chances of being hit by some cager on a cellphone and seriously injured or killed, either on my bike or in my Toyota, is probably greater than my final drive failing.

And, Sir, the consequences of the two is on a different scale.
If I were in your position (well, I am, actually) I would worry substantially more about being killed or injured than about a bearing failing.

My experiences, by the way, is that on the 1150, the left-hand side indicator switch fails much more frequent that the FD.
I don't worry about that either.

[TaSK]

[lightfighter]

Originally Posted by Geografo

From what I can tell, my chances of being hit by some cager on a cellphone and seriously injured or killed, either on my bike or in my Toyota, is probably greater than my final drive failing .

[woonun]

1995 GS at 60K leaking seal. Replaced seal and final drive
bearing with same shim. 6K later leaking and wobbling rent
truck last 250 miles of trip to make it home to Idaho.
In trying to find out everything I can about preload this time
around I read BMW manual and watch Curtis's movie using
Dman's method for checking preload with dial micrometer.
With heating of cover and cooling of crown bearing with oil I
am unable to move it up and down. Resort to using wire spark
plug gauge (90 degree) in situ the clearance varies 6/1000 in.
around the perimeter. I did this three times and came up with
the same in situ result with careful attention to torque and
cross tightening.

The first replacement I failed to notice there were two other shims
pressed into the housing. (I know...idiot) So the factory had
three shims in originally...0.4 mm and two smaller ones. They were
clearly over stressed the second time.
Seems strange given the range of shims in fiche is from 0.1 to 1.7 mm
that there were three shims.
The backlash checks btw.

As a community with collective intelligence I feel we can solve the problem
much faster than any investigation. Since most final drives work so well it makes sense
there is a solution that may be common.
Thanks for any redirects if there is a better place to post this.
To BobbySands...those Flyers are showing some real heart.

[tagesk]

Originally Posted by woonun

1995 GS

I don't think you have a 12GS, which, if I understand correctly, is the target of this investigation.

[TaSK]

[BobbySands]

Originally Posted by tagesk

My experiences, by the way, is that on the 1150, the left-hand side indicator switch fails much more frequent that the FD.
I don't worry about that either.

[TaSK]

Always ready to turn a phrase, TaSK.

Sometimes your posts should have ™ behind them.

[wilson]

Tagesk (post #328) is incorrect in his guess that, we are talking only about a BMW R12GS. The OP clearly states in his thread opener that they are investigating the 1999-2005 K1200LT'S final drive. No mention of the 12GS. He also states that he wants ANYONE with a final drive problem to stand up and contact them about it. It is his thread. And so the discussion goes on . If you have a BMW with FD bearing trouble speak up, now's the time.

Woonun is trying to inform people on how he is repairing the problem and the difficult details on how to do it correctly for the average shade tree mechanic. He is talking about actually fixing the problem instead of all the blowhards yapping about it (I include myself) and not really DOING anything about it. We do want to fix the problem, not just talk about it right ?

My GUESS (I don't really know crap , like everyone else, thus the discussion) is that many people have trouble with the FD bearing because the shims were not installed correctly at the factory. My 2004 R1150 GS ADV. has over 100k on it with no bearing trouble. I change the FD fluid every 5k miles and don't worry about it. Although I do carry a bearing and seal for distant trips where the parts are not readily available.

For a certain percentage of people with the FD bearing problem, I understand it's a BIG problem. For us that have been lucky , the BMW is the best moto around. I would rather change a FD bearing every 50 k than deal with a chain's full time problems. Carry on and go ride that moto !