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Old 11-30-2014, 09:43 AM   #1
AbqDave OP
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Abrasion resistance

I'm one of those "hard to fit" types, also a cheapskate, and have been wondering how Carhartts and other "alternative fabrics" compare with Cordura motorcycle pants. I've seen plenty of reports of lightweight Cordura getting shredded, and of Carhartts holding up. Wasn't totally clear to me how much you're leaving on the table going with "alternative" fabrics as opposed to cheap motorcycle-specific textile.

Finally sort of indirectly found some data after searching the dark, dusty corners of the internet.

http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/...s/Default.aspx

Here, a college kit runs Cordura vs NYCO, which is a DuPont fabric made for the military out of nylon and cotton. It's branded "Cordura Duck" and can be found in certain tactical pants and in the remarkably inexpensive "Red Head Cordura" pants over at Bass pro.

http://www.cordura.com/documents/COR...dy-to-Wear.pdf

Here, Cordura Duck is compared with cotton duck. The 410gram/m2 cotton duck should be about what Carhartts are made of, if my research is correct.

So, at least indirectly, we can see where cotton duck, Cordura duck, and actual Cordura stack up.

In terms of abrasion resistance, Cordura Duck is 4x as strong as Carhartt-style cotton canvas. 500D Cordura is 3x as strong as cordura/cotton blend.

I still can't say I'm all that impressed with the lightweight Cordura in my overpants but I've convinced myself that I am, in fact, giving up a lot of protection by riding in Carhartts.

Have also come to the conclusion that the best deal in motorcycle pants might be the 1000d Cordura jean over at Motoport. Custom made for about 200 bucks. Us "hard to fit" guys are running out of excuses.
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Old 11-30-2014, 10:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbqDave View Post
...but I've convinced myself that I am, in fact, giving up a lot of protection by riding in Carhartts.

Have to agree with you there. I'm thinking about Motoport myself.



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Old 11-30-2014, 02:25 PM   #3
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If you wanted to continue wearing the Carhartts, look at MX knee cups. they can be worn under pants no problem. Probably could find some inside hip padding to help. Maybe some spandex shorts with some high impact padding, then have a layer of race quality leather sewn on over the pads. Fit under any looser pants you might wear.
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Old 11-30-2014, 03:27 PM   #4
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cheap pants

Reminds me of a sign I saw years ago in a bike shop when I was looking for my first helmet.
"If you have a $10 head, we have a $10 helmet that fits."

I wear an Aerostich RoadCrafter to protect my skin. I'd suggest that you shop for used MC gear to save a few bucks.
Why not post you exact measurements and what type of gear that is your first choice and see who replays with something for sale?
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:25 AM   #5
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It's a little more complicated than the "$10 head" thing. It's a question of apportioning limited resources rationally.

If a new rider has $800 to spend on gear, it's kind of silly to buy a $500 Arai helmet and a $300 Harley-Davidson jacket, and then wing it the rest of the way. For that budget, I would suggest $200 for a Scorpion or HJC full face helmet, and make sure you have decent boots, pants and gloves. Use what you have left over to buy a jacket on sale.

The question being, define "decent pants." I had pretty much convinced myself that my motorcycle-specific Cordura overpants were worthless. They aren't. But I still don't think they are "decent."

And yea, I think Aerostich or Motoport can make ya a decent pair of pants. There are precious few alternatives, and very little discussion that I've seen of any really decent alternatives.

This isn't to slam on people who make a conscious risk-benefit decision to ride in something other than Aerostich, that's fine. I just find it irritating that a lot of mass-market motopants kind of slip in with good brand equity when they really don't provide near the protection people might think. And that its so fricken hard to get abrasion data on different materials.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 568V8 View Post
Reminds me of a sign I saw years ago in a bike shop when I was looking for my first helmet.
"If you have a $10 head, we have a $10 helmet that fits."

?
Marketing 101- market differentiation... Its the same principle used to sell all high end products. Works extremely effectively.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:21 AM   #7
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Not being a smart@@s here. Ask somebody who has slid down the road. You'll have your answer right quick.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:39 AM   #8
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I, for one, like your reasoning and approach.

I would love to see manufacturers state the material used with some sort of abrasion "metrics". Seems like a much better way for them to differentiate themselves in a crowded market. Not to mention, high end manufacturers would be able to demonstrate the value if they have metrics to back up their prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbqDave View Post
It's a little more complicated than the "$10 head" thing. It's a question of apportioning limited resources rationally.

If a new rider has $800 to spend on gear, it's kind of silly to buy a $500 Arai helmet and a $300 Harley-Davidson jacket, and then wing it the rest of the way. For that budget, I would suggest $200 for a Scorpion or HJC full face helmet, and make sure you have decent boots, pants and gloves. Use what you have left over to buy a jacket on sale.

The question being, define "decent pants." I had pretty much convinced myself that my motorcycle-specific Cordura overpants were worthless. They aren't. But I still don't think they are "decent."

And yea, I think Aerostich or Motoport can make ya a decent pair of pants. There are precious few alternatives, and very little discussion that I've seen of any really decent alternatives.

This isn't to slam on people who make a conscious risk-benefit decision to ride in something other than Aerostich, that's fine. I just find it irritating that a lot of mass-market motopants kind of slip in with good brand equity when they really don't provide near the protection people might think. And that its so fricken hard to get abrasion data on different materials.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:54 AM   #9
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I've crashed in some cordura pants and they held up really well, even on rough double shot treated road.

I think less important than the fabric is the intended use. Sure, carhartts are tough, but they're not really meant for motos so even beyond the abrasion resistance, I would question if the stitching would blow out, not to mention they don't have any padding so even if you managed to avoid rash, broken knee caps are no fun.

Not saying I don't ride in jeans on occasion, but if I'm going for "a ride", I usually put on something made for motos.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 568V8 View Post
Reminds me of a sign I saw years ago in a bike shop when I was looking for my first helmet.
"If you have a $10 head, we have a $10 helmet that fits."

I wear an Aerostich RoadCrafter to protect my skin. I'd suggest that you shop for used MC gear to save a few bucks.
Why not post you exact measurements and what type of gear that is your first choice and see who replays with something for sale?
so by that reasoning, your head and your life are only worth about $500-700? Anybody here riding with an $800,000 helmet?
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFleece View Post
Not being a smart@@s here. Ask somebody who has slid down the road. You'll have your answer right quick.
I dont have to ask, because i have done it... some of gear cost $1k each, some cost a couple hundred, some less

I am under no illusion that the main reason it cost 10 times more is not because the additional manufacturing cost or it protects me 10 times more - it's mostly because marketing and product positioning.

Of course the power of belief is always more powerful than logical analysis. This is why marketing works every time
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:48 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by KingOfFleece View Post
Not being a smart@@s here. Ask somebody who has slid down the road. You'll have your answer right quick.

Only people I know who frequently hit the pavement are racers, and all you have to do is look at what they wear.

Let's say one then decides to wear leather all the time. How do we know we are buying quality leather? And how is it sewn together? I bought a custom set of leathers off some dude from Pakistan on Ebay. My friend, who bought a brand name set off the rack, was acting all superior until I showed him the tag in his suit, "Made in China." Out of what?

Same with textiles. A 500d Aerostich suit will last a lifetime. My 600d brand name overpants are wearing through from kneeling in my garage to check my oil level. My carhartts wouldn't do that.

Look, we all know why there's an information blackout.

I think it's clear that if you spend $450 or so you can get decent britches from 'stich or motoport or Vanson for that matter. I can afford that and I reckon I'll be calling motoport this winter. But what about the guy with an $800 budget? I've decided Carhartt isn't the answer (although it's tempting to buy their 1000d Cordura snowsuit and rip the insulation out).
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:37 PM   #13
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You guys realize Carhartt is a manufacturer that makes over 100 different pants from about a dozen different materials right?

So when you say they are not good you should probably check which one you're talking about.

For instance, the Arctic Extremes coverall and bib is 1000d Cordura. With plenty of doubled up spots (Is that considered 2000d?).

They used to make an Arctic Extreme pant, now just the bibs.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:57 PM   #14
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Also, he's a kid using equipment at a college, probably not the newest or best equipment and more than likely not properly calibrated or used properly. You really really need to know what you're doing with those things.

Ride magazine had an independent company test a bunch of garments a few years back (Aerostich won the abrasion test).

The cuben fiber stuff does look interesting though. I've handled it when I checked out some guys superlightweight tent. But those numbers are coming from straight flat abrasion with a uniform pressure. IE it's last with a direct slide on pavement, add a pebble and it'll go right through, or have your keys in your pocket and that part will wear right out.

Either way, we all pretty much knew 1000D is the go to fabric, doubled up would be even better.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:29 PM   #15
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As many have mentioned here & elsewhere, abrasion resistance is probably going to be secondary in most street accidents. Long high speed slides, which are the norm on a track, are actually pretty rare on the street. Unfortunately, most of us will have only a few feet of slide before slamming into something solid, be it curb, tree, or SUV. For street riders, (commuters, etc.) armor for impact protection may be first in line for our safety gear dollars & abrasion resistance second.
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