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Old 03-15-2012, 04:59 AM   #76
fivetimeson129 OP
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joel tnks; the boxer is inherently harder to start than the Harley? I realize you are still testing the lithium but I can't wait to ask this, do you see the frightening vd shown on the video, this does impact the reliability of the starter, dramatically.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:21 PM   #77
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I have had a couple of recent email exchanges with Odyssey support (Kathy), trying to get their view on some of the basic issues. I found their responses informative, but since I'm pretty much a novice in this area, it doesn't take much to reach that bar for me. I posed 2 basic questions:

- what is Odyssey policy regarding the minimum OCV required on a 'new' battery before installing?

and

- should Odyssey chargers only be used with Odyssey batteries, and is it the case that Odyssey chargers may harm other brands of batteries?

Her responses were not short, and she also asked that if posted, that they be posted in their entirety. So, I'll do so in the next 2 posts...
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:25 PM   #78
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Recent email exchanges with Odyssey support (Kathy).

QUESTION 1 of 2: what is Odyssey policy regarding the minimum OCV required on a 'new' battery before installing?


Odyssey Reply:

Good afternoon Dave,

The ODYSSEY battery has a storage life (without a load from a full state of charge) of two year or to 12.0V before charging is required, whichever comes first. The minimum ship voltage from the factory is 12.7V OCV and fully charged the battery should have a minimum 12.84V OCV so a battery at 12.53V is just considered discharged and at less than 12.65V charging is recommended prior to installation since most vehicle charging systems are not meant to be battery chargers but maintainers. The ship date code is located below the 8 digit part number in the small white box on the top label of the battery and is in the format of MMYY (Month, Year). I would recommend returning any ODYSSEY battery that is less than 12.0V OCV (out of the box) especially if it is greater than 2 years old based on the ship date code because it has most likely not been maintained properly during storage.

There is a list of ODYSSEY approved chargers linked on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page. All chargers have been tested and meet the requirements printed on the top label of the battery. If the battery becomes deeply discharged or requires charging, a standard charger that has a charging current of 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery and does not exceed 15.0V could be used to bring the battery up to a high state of charge and once installed in the application the charging system should complete the charging process. Discontinue charging if the battery begins to hiss, vent, or becomes overheated to the point where you cannot maintain physical contact with the battery. This is a sign of overcharging and voltages exceeding 15.0V. The PC535 is a 13Ah battery and a minimum 5A charger would be recommended for charging. A lower amp maintainer can be used to maintain the battery and counteract the parasitic loads of the application provided the float voltage is between 13.5-13.8V and the charger does not exceed 15.0V in any type of reconditioning/equalize/de-sulfation mode.

I hope this helps. Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,

Kathy Mitchell
ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative
Phone: 660-429-7551
Toll Free: 888-422-0317
Fax: 660-429-1758
Email: kathy.mitchell@enersys.com
Web site: www.odysseybattery.com
Corp site: www.enersys.com

End of Odyssey Reply
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:29 PM   #79
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Recent email exchanges with Odyssey support (Kathy).

QUESTION 2 of 2: should Odyssey chargers only be used with Odyssey batteries, and is it the case that Odyssey chargers may harm other brands of batteries?


Odyssey Reply:

Good morning Dave,

The ODYSSEY battery must be maintained at a slightly higher OCV than most other products on the market due to the Thin Plate Pure Lead technology and high grade acid used in the production process which effects the overall chemistry of the battery and requires slightly higher charging voltages and charge current than most other batteries on the market. For this reason, proper charging is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the ODYSSEY battery. Unlike most other products on the market, the ODYSSEY battery prefers a high amp charge vs. standard low amp trickle charging for most other products. For cyclic applications (definition located in the ODYSSEY Technical Manual and on the ODYSSEY website approved charger listing PDF) we recommend 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for a charge current or about 5A for the 13Ah PC535 and a float voltage of 13.5-13.8V. If the charger/maintainer has an automatic de-sulfation feature, its use would not be recommended since it typically exceeds 15.0V and by doing so the battery can become overcharged and can go into thermal runaway. Even if the charger meets these requirements then there is the issue of state of charge at the end of the absorption charge that means that for most chargers, the ODYSSEY battery is not fully charged when it goes into float mode when most other batteries are. For this situation, an additional 8 hours in float at 13.5-13.8V should make up the difference and will help insure that the ODYSSEY battery is fully charged.

One of the most common causes of non-warranty premature failure is due to consistent undercharging or maintaining the battery (float) in an undercharged condition at less than 13.5V. There are a lot of great chargers and maintainers on the market that work well with most batteries on the market but do not work well with ODYSSEY batteries. That is why we provide a list of ODYSSEY approved 12V chargers that have been tested and work well with the product on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page for your reference. The ODYSSEY 6A OMAX-6A-1B charger would be the ODYSSEY recommended charger for the PC535 ODYSSEY battery. This battery should have a service life of 2-3 times that of a standard wet flooded lead acid battery in the application but will typically begin having issue due to sulfation with 1-2 years if consistently undercharged or maintained in an undercharged condition. Also, just because the charger says it is acceptable for use on AGM product or has an AGM setting, it does not mean it meets the charge voltage requirements of the ODYSSEY battery and there may or may not be another charger setting (GEL, Flooded, etc.) that is better suited to the product based on those charging voltages.

http://www.odysseybattery.com/chargers.html is the link to the ODYSSEY website Charger page which contains the recommended 3-step charging profile for maximizing the life and performance of the ODYSSEY battery. http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume...PT2011_000.pdf is the link to the list of ODYSSEY/EnerSys approved 12V chargers and maintainer that have been tested and we know work well with the ODYSSEY product line.

Since the ODYSSEY chargers are slightly more aggressive than what is recommended for most other batteries on the market, these chargers are only recommended for use with ODYSSEY 12V batteries and EnerSys TPPL products. For this reason, we suggest contacting any other battery manufacturer before using this charger on other products to ensure that the charging profile and charging current is acceptable for charging that product or just not using the charger at all.

If the battery is being maintained (not deep discharge charged such as for seasonal applications like ATV’s, motorcycles, street rods, etc.) then a low amp maintainer that meets the float voltage requirements as stated above would be considered acceptable to maintain the battery indefinitely without harming the battery. If the battery becomes deeply discharged, then a standard automotive charger can be used to get the battery to a high state of charge (provided it doesn’t exceed 15.0V) then the maintainer or the applications charging system could be used to complete the charging process with riding or driving. Idle charging is not recommended as it may not get the battery to a full state of charge.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of the product and proper charge maintenance of the product. Thanks and have a great day!

Kathy Mitchell
ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative
Phone: 660-429-7551
Toll Free: 888-422-0317
Fax: 660-429-1758
Email: kathy.mitchell@enersys.com
Web site: www.odysseybattery.com
Corp site: www.enersys.com

End of Odyssey Reply
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:21 PM   #80
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Battery threads are the new Oil threads.


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Old 03-15-2012, 06:49 PM   #81
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FWIW: I recently had an excellent experience with Odyssey support and warranty replacement of my PC680. For that I am returning customer, just picking up another 680 for the old man's RT
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:29 PM   #82
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivetimeson129 View Post
joel tnks; the boxer is inherently harder to start than the Harley? I realize you are still testing the lithium but I can't wait to ask this, do you see the frightening vd shown on the video, this does impact the reliability of the starter, dramatically.
Yep, I saw it and have seen it close and personal as well.

Lead/acid batteries are NOW batteries. They have their highest available current from the moment a load is applied, then slowly fall off as the chemical reaction occurring in the battery looses ground and voltage falls off.

Lithium batteries are different. They don't have that high of instantaneous current available, but warm rapidly and supply more current till their formidable chemical reaction can not keep pass, and begin declining.

The Boxer is likely easier to crank then the Harley (I am no Harley tech), but the design of the Boxers starting motor HATES under voltage!

Most bikes starters use a sprag clutch which is just a one way clutch. Such systems are not damaged by under voltage.

Boxers use a regular car type sort of starter. It has a gear called a pinion on the starter shaft that is shoved forward by a bendix to mesh with gear teeth on the flywheel.

Under voltage on a boxer can cause the bendix to fail to completely engage the pinion with the flywheel. Teeth chewed off of the flywheel is what insures and that takes a LOT of labor to replace.


In any case, this does not avoid lithium batteries. It means avoid undersized lithium batteries, and sickly lead acid batteries
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:32 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic578 View Post
Recent email exchanges with Odyssey support (Kathy).

QUESTION 1 of 2: what is Odyssey policy regarding the minimum OCV required on a 'new' battery before installing?


Odyssey Reply:
.................................................. ..................
Good morning Dave,

This is Joel, the guy who doesn't work for Odyssey, though does like their products and even has a T shirt with Odyssey Battery embroidered on it

I am Beginning to like Kathy the Odyssey sales rep! She walks a fine line of being informative while looking out for the interest of the corporation that employes her.

Battery shelf life is a lead / acid thing, not specific to Odyssey.

Various chemistries respond differently however.

Any lead / acid battery with antimony alloyed into the lead grid will have a highish self discharge rate BUT be very resistant to shedding. These batteries have poor shelf life but very high resistance to shedding. Last I knew Excide/Yuasa used this composition in their YTZ power sports line

Lead /acid batteries with calcium alloyed with their lead grid have extremely low self discharge and higher resistance to gassing from high charging voltages. They are perhaps half way between the very high shedding resistance of lead / antimony alloys, and the very low shedding resistance of mostly pure lead grids. These batteries have a great shelf life. Think East Penn Deka for this formula.

Batteries with mostly pure lead grids USUALLY have a very low self discharge rate, but higher susceptibility to shedding active material.

12 OCV and 2 years from production is a nice threshold for a customer rejecting a battery IF you look at it from the manufactures perspective of not wanting to loose money warrantying batteries that COULD possibly last till out of warranty or at least long enough for you to misplace the receipt, AND you don't want people rejecting batteries your end sales point has in inventory.


This is not a "pass or fail" situation. Read further into the charger question answers and theres a sign of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy
This battery should have a service life of 2-3 times that of a standard wet flooded lead acid battery in the application but will typically begin having issue due to sulfation with 1-2 years if consistently undercharged or maintained in an undercharged condition.
Well what do you think a battery is doing after sitting for a year and a half boxed up before purchase? In the case of Odyssey's very low self discharge, 6 months after being produced, it is sitting in a consistently discharged state LOL.

When using powerful chargers, Odyssey stands a better chance of having the longest life then any other battery that is allowed to sit undercharged, but not unlike milk from the grocery store, it is still going to go bad quicker if it is older then if it is fresher.

12.6 OCV is my personal limit. If others are fine with a battery that has taken more damage from sitting discharged, be my guest. There is no hard and fast rule, but older is ALWAYS worse then fresher.


Onto the charger question. Glad to see that Kathy acknowledged that their own chargers are more aggressive then some batteries may like. This is true and I have stated such in dozens of posts, mostly on parallel universe threads.

The part about Odyssey not liking more then 15 volts, thats a simplification.

I have the Odyssey OMAX-12A-1B charger at home with me and it is my single favorite lead / acid battery charger. I have used the OMAX-6A-1B many times at my old work and was the one that demanded it's purchase.

Both of these chargers are 4 stage, not 3 as their web site graph implies. Bulk, absorption, DESULFATION, and float.

The little OMAX-6A-1B charger enters desulfation mode once the battery is full charged. I don't recall all the details, but have observed it and it is mild but over 15 volts for brief periods.

The OMAX-12A-1B is a SUPER aggressive battery charger. In it's desulfation mode it spikes charging voltage all the way up to 21 volts for a few seconds at a time with substantial rest time between determined by the batteries OCV response.

This is why am not totally sanguine with using the OMAX-12A-1B charger on a battery that is still electrically attached to a bike.

That said, it is truly awesome at resolving sulfate from batteries that can withstand this over-voltage.

Excide/Yuasa and other antimony alloyed lead batteries can NOT withstanding this voltage without venting and drying out.

Odyssey batteries can take it and thrive on it IF and ONLY IF you don't cut on the battery case and remove case hardening ribs that keep the soft lead grid in compression. Cut on the case, and regardless of what people that aren't engineers for Odyssey say, you have removed what prevents the soft pure lead active material from shedding from rough vibration and over-charging.

The companies and individuals cutting up Odyssey cases can get away with it because the battery will still last a long time but certainly not as long as they otherwise would, but why? Its not needed with any of the BMW's cause at worst, all you need to do is modify the bikes cheap battery trey.


East Penn Deka power sports AGM batteries also thrive on the higher desulfation voltage pulses from the OMAX-12A-1B because they are calcium alloyed batteries and because of other vagaries of their construction.

I don't know this from emailing sales reps. whom will usually play it safe, unlike Kathy, which I respect her for. I know it from doing it, observing and testing reactions, and cutting open batteries to get at the whole story.

I am qualified to make this call on my own, but have backed it up by talking with engineers working for various battery manufactures, East Penn, and Enersys included.


But...... If you don't trust this or prefer sales reps emailed statements, be my guest to form your own opinions

And YES, this is the new oil thread replacement but it suits me cause I know a lot more about batteries then engine oil
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:33 AM   #84
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I am still on my first battery in my '03 1150GS Adv. It is the stock Exide Gel battery. Cross your fingers that it'll last through this season!

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Old 03-16-2012, 07:17 AM   #85
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Battery threads are the new Oil threads.
In a way, though the battery threads, at least this one, has much more information and much less vociferous defense of baseless opinions, that oil threads are famous for.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:37 AM   #86
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GSWayne, could not agree more, this senior citizen has learned an awful lot here AND I often pick up a few things about lubricants on the 'oil threads' also.

sonic; could you post the link to the approved chargers; and when I went to our local Odyssey rep to buy a charger I was told that unless I needed it immediately that I should wait a while as a completely new (or completely new charging protocol) has been developed for the batteries, could you comment on whether this is accurate and if it is, when the new charger will be on the market-so far am loving the new PC680.

joel, ( I work on only rectified dc motors very small to very very large) going to about a third of the target voltage-under significant load- does not impact the dc starter motor?
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:54 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivetimeson129 View Post
GSWayne, could not agree more, this senior citizen has learned an awful lot here AND I often pick up a few things about lubricants on the 'oil threads' also.

sonic; could you post the link to the approved chargers; and when I went to our local Odyssey rep to buy a charger I was told that unless I needed it immediately that I should wait a while as a completely new (or completely new charging protocol) has been developed for the batteries, could you comment on whether this is accurate and if it is, when the new charger will be on the market-so far am loving the new PC680.

joel, ( I work on only rectified dc motors very small to very very large) going to about a third of the target voltage-under significant load- does not impact the dc starter motor?
See post #79. She provided the link to a .pdf file. Here it is:

http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume...PT2011_000.pdf
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:38 PM   #88
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivetimeson129 View Post
GSWayne, could not agree more, this senior citizen has learned an awful lot here AND I often pick up a few things about lubricants on the 'oil threads' also.

sonic; could you post the link to the approved chargers; and when I went to our local Odyssey rep to buy a charger I was told that unless I needed it immediately that I should wait a while as a completely new (or completely new charging protocol) has been developed for the batteries, could you comment on whether this is accurate and if it is, when the new charger will be on the market-so far am loving the new PC680.

joel, ( I work on only rectified dc motors very small to very very large) going to about a third of the target voltage-under significant load- does not impact the dc starter motor?
I am not 100% sure what you are asking. Bit if you are asking if under voltage during starting is harmful, YES, and to some bikes, YES to a great degree.

Most BMW and other brand motorcycles use a starter motor that is just a PM motor with some gear reduction, sometimes, and coupled to the crank, often through a lay shaft, with a sprag clutch.

"Sprag clutch" is the important thing through all or those commas. A sprag clutch does not care if the torque chatters or torque gets light as the starter experiences under-voltage.

What does care to an extent is the starter relay, often incorrectly called a starter solenoid. When an excessive under-voltage occurs because the battery is too small, old, or damaged, the starter motor does not spin the motor up fast enough for it's rotating mass to help shove through a compression stroke. When this happens, the engine will crank through the compression stroke VERY slowly or may even get stuck.

Even though the battery that cause this may be weak, it will still put out massive current which is what a slowly rotating starter will draw. With a weak battery, starting current actually goes up and this at best shortens the starter relays life and at worst welds the contacts together, destroying the relay and occasionally the starter or even wiring which can and does catch on fire.

Enter BMW's boxer motors. They don't couple the starter with a sprag clutch but use the antiquated system of having a movable pinion on the starter output shaft which is shoved forward by a solenoid to mesh with the ring gear on the flywheel.

The solenoid is an electro magnet thats strength is directly proportional to the voltage energizing it. When the voltage goes excessively low, especially initially but to an extent at any time while cranking, the solenoid cal allow the pinion to partially disengage the ring gear.

What happens next is the pinion chews up the teeth on the flywheel and eventually over time, and occasionally all at once, rips teeth off of the pinion and flywheel.

When this happens, most people pay someone like me to replace their starter, remove the transmission of their GS, replace their ring gear, usually replace a few seals and if relevant, comment on the condition of their clutch.

The newer GSs such as the 1150 and 1200 will by computer deliberately de-power the starter when voltage gets low, but they also have a much more fragile ring gear, in an effort to save weight, I guess. I most often see adage to the newer GSs from under voltage.

So yes, under voltage is very bad.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:28 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by GSWayne View Post

In a way, though the battery threads, at least this one, has much more information and much less vociferous defense of baseless opinions, that oil threads are famous for.
Initially no one knew they were baseless. Then at some point someone in a thread referred to themself as a tribologist. I think that was the event horizon.

Does Amway sell batteries?


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Old 03-18-2012, 01:01 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Initially no one knew they were baseless. Then at some point someone in a thread referred to themself as a tribologist. I think that was the event horizon.

Does Amway sell batteries?

We have a tribologist on the forum? Who is he? I want to argue that most wear of the piston and cylinder is oxidization caused by losers who warm their engines up by idling before riding, not surface fatigue, abrasion, or adhesion.

I also want to find a way to work the words "thixotropy" and "rheopexy" into a discussion of lubricants because they are smart sounding words!

As to Amway, not presently, but soon they will, it will be a Shorai battery, and it will soften your hands while you do dishes!

The hand softening characteristic is good because for adventure bikes, Shorai is not impressing me so far.
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