ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > Pacific Northwet - Where it's green. And wet.
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-17-2014, 04:58 PM   #1
doggitter OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Location: Elmira, Oar-agin
Oddometer: 1,768
Any electricians that can answer a code question for lane county?

Looking to wire the outdoor light and electric gate, buried plastic conduit last year. Question is, can I use 14-2 feeder wire for that since it looks to be so cheap. Run is 140' to light and jbox the another 35' to the gate.
__________________
So many rides, so little time.

Loren, somewhere on a DR350SE
doggitter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 05:01 PM   #2
Just Max
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Just Max's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Location: PA Amish Country
Oddometer: 198
Not qualified to give you an answer.. but.

What is the amp draw of the light / gate combo?

I would guess that 175 + plus the inside wiring is a bit long for 14g.. what size conduit did you run. How deep?
__________________
I put the F in luck
Just Max is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 05:24 PM   #3
doggitter OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Location: Elmira, Oar-agin
Oddometer: 1,768
Tried looking for amps on the gate and all I got was 120v 18vac. The light is a typical 150watt yard light, but I'll prob have to replace it since the helpful soul that took it down to move it about wasted it. 1" conduit to code depth, idr what that spec was. Seems like it was over 2' deep.
__________________
So many rides, so little time.

Loren, somewhere on a DR350SE
doggitter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 06:13 PM   #4
Zuber
Zoob
 
Zuber's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Location: Main Street, Shedd, Oregon
Oddometer: 1,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mheitman View Post
Not qualified to give you an answer.. but.

What is the amp draw of the light / gate combo?

I would guess that 175 + plus the inside wiring is a bit long for 14g.. what size conduit did you run. How deep?
+1 on that. 14 ga is typically only for a 15amp lighting circuit, no motors. That's also a long run. I'd do 12 ga minimum. 10 ga if there's any chance of more power needed in the future, like an outlet, but 10 ga is about max that'd you ever need.
__________________
"Dad, can I get a motorcycle when I grow up?"
"Son, you can't do both"
Zuber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 08:10 PM   #5
Miguel Sanchez
Whatever...
 
Miguel Sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Bend(over), OR
Oddometer: 963
Shocking!

Well, I'm not a "licensed" electrician, but I do know a thing or two about this stuff...

We always start with the load, and then calculate the wire size based on this. In your case, with a long run, voltage drop is going to be a bigger factor than the actual ampacity (yes, that's a real word) of the wire. Code says to keep voltage drop to 2% or less, otherwise performance and life of the stuff you're running will suffer significantly.

Ok - for the load, we'll do the easy one first. A 150 watt light at 110V will pull 1.36 amps (watts/volts=amps). The gate opener is a bit trickier, but we can guess based on horsepower. A 1/2hp motor will pull about 9 amps at 110V, and a 1/3hp unit pulls about 6amps. Total load would be the light plus the motor - we'll call it 10amps total to make the math easy. If you can pin down the gate opener draw a bit closer we can recalculate.

Your 1" conduit is good - code says you can run two #4 conductors in that size, or three #6 wires. In your case (110V outdoor service), two conductors is all you need (hot and neutral) as long as you plant a good ground rod out by the gate. Otherwise, run three wires and ground it back to your supply panel. Also, buy loose wire - individual conductor type - and run it in the conduit that way. You can run more juice and get less voltage drop due to heat and inductance this way vs. running regular 14-2 romex type stuff in conduit. You did run a pull string in the conduit, right? If not, good luck...

Anyway, back to voltage drop. We can calculate this using Ohm's Law and some known resistance values for copper wire. Voltage drop = Current (amps) X Resistance (ohms). There are other ways of calculating this, but they are all based on Ohm's Law. In this case, I will just look it up in the NEC tables, but the science behind it is the same. The table says you can pull 10amps at 110V in #8 wire for 180 feet. #10 wire is only good for 110 feet at this load.

Interesting note - as voltage doubles (110V to 220V), amps are cut in half, and voltage drop as a percentage decreases by a factor of 4..! Higher voltage is way more efficient for long distance AC power transmission, hence the reason for super high voltage power lines and step-down transformers at the end of the line.

Anyway, to summarize everything - if you need 10amps present 175 feet away, you need #8 wire. If you need less current, let me know and we can see if smaller wires are ok.

In the alternative, buy your wife a flashlight and a handgun, and she can get out of the car to open the gate.
__________________
- Miguel

01 GS1150, 02 WR426F, 04 XR650L, 04 315R, 04 CRF230F, 81 R100RT (S), 56 G80CS, 87 MT11, 71 TS185, 74 98SR, 74 99RT, 76 TL250, 70 MX125, 80 DR400, 80 RS175, 80 RS250, 78 XR75, 74 RD350, 70 CT70, 06 Monster 620 Dark, and about a dozen more I can't think of right now...
Miguel Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 08:24 PM   #6
oldmonkeybut
Digital Emigrant
 
oldmonkeybut's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Location: Western Rain county, Oregon
Oddometer: 2,390
Didn't run a pull string through the conduit......No Problem ! You need a ball of twine/string, a Shop Vac or an Air Compressor. Suck or blow the string through and pull your wires....easy peasy. We always put the string in after the fact. Hope you don't have to have an inspection. The inspector won't like the fact the conduit is already buried.
__________________
In a pool of Children s Tears
oldmonkeybut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 08:32 PM   #7
linkweewee
tantum quantum
 
linkweewee's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Oregon
Oddometer: 13,846
I like cheese.
__________________
Life is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
-John Wayne
linkweewee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 08:33 PM   #8
doggitter OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Location: Elmira, Oar-agin
Oddometer: 1,768
It was ok'd before we buried it.

So the gate transformer to power it is 18v/2200ma, and runs in 16g low volt wire to the motor unit/control. About as much power as I can spit. Add 1.5a to spit and that's why I was pretty sure 14/2 would be sufficient, right??

It's either a Mightymule 350 or 500, can't find where it's buried yet(don't ask) and can't rightly remember which it is.

Pulling isn't an issue, BTDT multiple times. Only problem I anticipate there is clearing the hole first as it's likely full of water, if not mud.

OOhh, the original question is unanswered, I should have highlighted FEEDER wire. Is that the proper stuff? The proper size I can get to, code on which wire eludes me.
__________________
So many rides, so little time.

Loren, somewhere on a DR350SE
doggitter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 10:37 PM   #9
peterman
cop magnet
 
peterman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Springfield,,,,like the Simpsons,,,orygun
Oddometer: 13,119
[QUOTE=Miguel Sanchez;23718697]Well, I'm not a "licensed" electrician, but I do know a thing or two about this stuff...

We always start with the load, and then calculate the long run, erectile droop is going to be a bigger factor than the actual ampacity (yes, that's a real word) of the wiener.

Y'see?,,now this is why I really love you and the way you talk so sveldt,,can I sit by you at the next KTM roast?
__________________
peterman
___________________________
"Your God, your rules,,YOU go burn in hell!" LLV
peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 05:24 AM   #10
Miguel Sanchez
Whatever...
 
Miguel Sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Bend(over), OR
Oddometer: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggitter View Post
It was ok'd before we buried it.

So the gate transformer to power it is 18v/2200ma, and runs in 16g low volt wire to the motor unit/control. About as much power as I can spit. Add 1.5a to spit and that's why I was pretty sure 14/2 would be sufficient, right??

It's either a Mightymule 350 or 500, can't find where it's buried yet(don't ask) and can't rightly remember which it is.

Pulling isn't an issue, BTDT multiple times. Only problem I anticipate there is clearing the hole first as it's likely full of water, if not mud.

OOhh, the original question is unanswered, I should have highlighted FEEDER wire. Is that the proper stuff? The proper size I can get to, code on which wire eludes me.

Well, alrighty then - now we're getting somewhere! An 18v 2.2amp (2200ma) output AC transformer will pull 55 watts, or 1/2 amp on the input side. Added to your light, and we've got 2.0 amps total.

Voltage drop can be directly calculated using Ohms law, knowing that a #14 copper conductor has 2.6 ohms/1000ft of resistance.

(2 conductors)(175ft)(.0026ohms/ft) = 0.91 ohms
(2.0amps)(0.91ohms) = 1.82 volts (drop)

1.82/110 = 1.7% voltage drop. You are good!! Math is fun, right?

Summary - yes, #14 wire is fine for a 2amp max load at 175 feet. Nothing extra left for tacky Christmas lights on the gate, but it will run a 150w light bulb and the 55w transformer.

Again, pull two seperate 14ga solid conductors (3 if you aren't grounding at the gate) and go for it. I would not use household Romex, and you are wasting your money if you buy underground (grey) feeder wire because you already have conduit.

Beyond that, don't have it inspected because I ain't an electrician :cool:

Hiya Peterman!! :


Sent via my Kindle Fire, from the hot tub, while wearing nothing at all!
__________________
- Miguel

01 GS1150, 02 WR426F, 04 XR650L, 04 315R, 04 CRF230F, 81 R100RT (S), 56 G80CS, 87 MT11, 71 TS185, 74 98SR, 74 99RT, 76 TL250, 70 MX125, 80 DR400, 80 RS175, 80 RS250, 78 XR75, 74 RD350, 70 CT70, 06 Monster 620 Dark, and about a dozen more I can't think of right now...
Miguel Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 01:08 PM   #11
Scott_PDX
Leisure Engineer
 
Scott_PDX's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: Portland...the newer one on the left side.
Oddometer: 2,812
Nice answers Miguel!

I stayed at a Holiday Inn recently, so my $.02 is.
- No ROMEX in conduit to be on the safe side, use individual solid conductors (Not stranded, not romex/multi sheathed cables etc.). Get White, Black and Bare (If running ground)..
- I'd go one step heavier for that run. I typically overkill it and would run 10 guage. You gonna have an outlet down there? That's a long ways to walk to reset a breaker, when you plug in your "x" (X=Unknown future device). Having undersized wire for future use sucks.
- Do you need an extra wire to switch the light/activate the gate from the house as well? I.e. 3 way switch? If so drop a spare one in there as well (Red wire).

YMMV, not an expert.
__________________
2014 KTM 690R, 2011 WR250R, 2009 KLR650, 2004 KTM 450 EXC, 2000 R1150GS

My MotovLog (Youtube Videos): http://www.youtube.com/user/scottb572/videos

Where Am I via SPOT (Code SCT): http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719703
Scott_PDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 01:30 PM   #12
HellsAlien
a has-been that never-was
 
HellsAlien's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Baja Sur winter. PDX summer (that's like 6 wks!)
Oddometer: 2,250
No fault current calc? Fault currents get big if the wire is oversized vs what the breaker can interrupt. That's why there's enginerds!

Mexican way is to wait until the extension cord cools off before unplugging or it messes up the melted connectors!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuber
Hells AL is right.

"Bad roads, good people. Good roads, bad people." Mama Espinoza
“Ride first, tart second. Sorry bro but that’s the way it has to be.” Cbrit, 2008
“You gas it where I brake!” trackday passenger, Thunderhill, 2005
HellsAlien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 01:38 PM   #13
Miguel Sanchez
Whatever...
 
Miguel Sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Bend(over), OR
Oddometer: 963
Most of Mexico is a vastly more free and hence a better society in this respect. You can walk down the street and pass open holes dug for construction - no barricades, no cones, no yellow tape.

What, you fell in the hole? Too bad - watch where you walk next time, dumbass. Hurt your leg in that fall? Too bad - good luck finding a lawyer to take your case. Walk it off, princess.

Your extension cord was too small and got stepped on by a donkey, then it started a fire that burned your shit down? Too bad, next time string it through the eaves like your neighbor did. His shit didn't burn down did it?

Being responsible for yourself and not relying on lawyers and/or the government to cover your sorry ass for you is a superior way to live.
__________________
- Miguel

01 GS1150, 02 WR426F, 04 XR650L, 04 315R, 04 CRF230F, 81 R100RT (S), 56 G80CS, 87 MT11, 71 TS185, 74 98SR, 74 99RT, 76 TL250, 70 MX125, 80 DR400, 80 RS175, 80 RS250, 78 XR75, 74 RD350, 70 CT70, 06 Monster 620 Dark, and about a dozen more I can't think of right now...
Miguel Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2014, 03:05 PM   #14
HellsAlien
a has-been that never-was
 
HellsAlien's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Baja Sur winter. PDX summer (that's like 6 wks!)
Oddometer: 2,250
Baja extension cord to cement mixer....

Home made, 3-conductor. You can tell the conductors are copper by looking at them where the insulation fell off. The green ground is broken in several places, but the tag ends are in the dirt, so its "grounded."

The boards keep the knotted "connector" out of the tierra. Can't have everything in the dirt.

This ran for most of the morning. Ran good when mixer was empty, but with a load it really groaned and finally the motor burned out (grande voltage drop). I let it cool off before unplugging "my" part of the 100 foot run. Cord is now baja-ed, will only conduct mexicano electricidad.

Wish I had a pic of the welding hookups here. Twisted ends of the primaries into the big setscrews on top of 200 amp breaker (the hot side off the pole). Only problema was the setscrews were full of dirt from hurricane Jimena flood (they were under only 16 feet of water) and took a while to burn through the dirt so we could weld up the channels.

I was OK with all this, worked great, and it was on the CFE side of the meter!

More thread high jack: I need some fuel-rated hookup wire 18/20 ga, to rewire a local BMW gas tank sensor on a K75. We don't have fuel-rated wire here. 18/20 ga, stranded copper, teflon insulation preferred, but I think SXL or XLP cross-linked polyethylene will work. This is a good excuse for someone to ride 1800 miles and make a couple buds and drain a lot of Pacificos!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuber
Hells AL is right.

"Bad roads, good people. Good roads, bad people." Mama Espinoza
“Ride first, tart second. Sorry bro but that’s the way it has to be.” Cbrit, 2008
“You gas it where I brake!” trackday passenger, Thunderhill, 2005
HellsAlien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2014, 01:47 PM   #15
RideAbout
Mentally Retired
 
RideAbout's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Oregon
Oddometer: 1,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel Sanchez View Post
Most of Mexico is a vastly more free and hence a better society in this respect.

What, you fell in the hole? Too bad - watch where you walk next time, dumbass. Hurt your leg in that fall? Too bad - good luck finding a lawyer to take your case. Walk it off, princess.l



We think we are free in the USA....places like Mexico and Guatemala are free....to do whatever you want.

We were driving around a Guatemalan city when this guy walking on the "sidewalk" just disappeared....open manhole cover... Whooops!. He crawled out and limped away.

I was walking up a hillside in the middle of nowhere and I see this guy holding a rope over a 18 inch hole. I walk up, look down his hole (careful Miguel) and literally 50 feet down is a guy with a small shovel and a bucket digging a well. No supports, no yellow tape, no noxious gas meters (careful Miguel) or OHSA dweeb standing around.

Freedom to make mistakes and take responsibility when they happen....
__________________
"Don't turn the Earth into a shit-hole like Uranus!"
West - "Oeste Sanchez"
RideAbout is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014