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Old 04-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #151
JoelWisman OP
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
This just came in the mail.....

Preliminary results are in line with what you said Joel.... " as they get older...they drift" comparative test shows my trusty...or should I say rusty old meter is 0.25 volts high... I will do the test and mod in the am....

Erling
NICE!

Can you check ac ripple voltage at the battery while you are at it? I don't recall it being concerning, but it's been brought up in this thread, so might as well put a number on it.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:23 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
NICE!

Can you check ac ripple voltage at the battery while you are at it? I don't recall it being concerning, but it's been brought up in this thread, so might as well put a number on it.
Yeppers... I will.... sometime in the am... I'l post it..... Nice meter I must say....

Erling
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:09 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Funky sizes! Ballistic went with big cruiserisc sized cases so nothing bigger then the 8 cell is going to fit in the usual adventure bike battery box.
Not sure what you mean exactly, but I have a 12 cell in my 658 and it's plenty small. I could probably fit two of them in there.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:51 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by roundtripping View Post
Not sure what you mean exactly, but I have a 12 cell in my 658 and it's plenty small. I could probably fit two of them in there.
EVO2 12 cell Dimensions (Standard): 4.5" (L) x 3.5" (W) x 4.25" (H)

BMW K7X OE battery YTX 14 Dimensions: 5.8" (L) x 3.25" (W) x 5.1" (H)

It's 1/4" fatter according to their site, unless Ballistic got their own dimensions wrong lol

So that would put the battery almost in contact with that plastic thing with the metal waffle iron attached to the front called the ZFE. The metal waffle is a heat sink and gets very hot. No battery likes asymmetric heat as it changes the activeness of the electrolyte in the hotter cells and usually leads to an out of balance battery.

Maybe the 12 cell will take it, maybe it will crap out in 6 months, but you could get 2 in there? how???
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:30 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
EVO2 12 cell Dimensions (Standard): 4.5" (L) x 3.5" (W) x 4.25" (H)

BMW K7X OE battery YTX 14 Dimensions: 5.8" (L) x 3.25" (W) x 5.1" (H)

It's 1/4" fatter according to their site, unless Ballistic got their own dimensions wrong lol

So that would put the battery almost in contact with that plastic thing with the metal waffle iron attached to the front called the ZFE. The metal waffle is a heat sink and gets very hot. No battery likes asymmetric heat as it changes the activeness of the electrolyte in the hotter cells and usually leads to an out of balance battery.

Maybe the 12 cell will take it, maybe it will crap out in 6 months, but you could get 2 in there? how???
I have no idea... I didn't measure it before slapping it in, but I do know that I used quite a bit of that hard foam Ballistic ships with to make a good fit and it was nowhere near touching at the top... Maybe they did get their measurements wrong or they're from an older model or something I may stick my nose in the battery compartment this weekend since I'm doing some other maintenance, I'll measure it if so.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:01 AM   #156
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Ok..... you were spot on Joel.
mind you ine sits on a tender all the time... so the battery rest is a bit higher than not.
Bike resting: 13.6 vdc
Idle............: 14.05 vdc
3000 rpm....: 13.80 vdc

on the ac side. it fluctuated about 5 mvac...but at idle I saw 80 millivolt ac.... 89 millivolt at 3000. Interesting thing was bleeping the throttle from idle...and only from idle.... would ripple a bit more peaking at 118 millivolt ac.

Erling
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:07 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
... metal waffle iron attached to the front called the ZFE


It has always seemed like an odd place for the "waffle iron" ... doesn't seem like it would get much cooling air flow?
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:40 PM   #158
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It has always seemed like an odd place for the "waffle iron" ... doesn't seem like it would get much cooling air flow?
It doesn't need air as it is a perfect radiator and radiates heat into a heavy lead / acid battery that would take a full day to heat up.

I would worry about a LiFePO4 being the heat sink as it is light and won't accept much heat, but the ZFE is an oversized car model (cheap and off the shelf) that isn't run anywhere near it's capacity on an F8 so I don't think the ZFE will care about loosing it's big lead/acid heat receptacle.

Batteries are another story, lead acid doesn't dig asymmetric heating because it causes stratification. I am also convinced that while low charging voltage is one factor in Shorai battery failure in the F8, asym,ethic heating is probably a bigger one.

I suspect the tightly packed cylindric cell Antigravity battery will do ok with asymmetric heating as the cells will likely all stay around the same temperature, but am going to put the Antigravity battery in a long F8 trial to be sure.

Bassed on the case dimensions I don't think Ballistic is tightly packing their cells and might have a problem with asymmetric heating, but only time is going to tell.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:43 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Ok..... you were spot on Joel.
mind you ine sits on a tender all the time... so the battery rest is a bit higher than not.
Bike resting: 13.6 vdc
Idle............: 14.05 vdc
3000 rpm....: 13.80 vdc

on the ac side. it fluctuated about 5 mvac...but at idle I saw 80 millivolt ac.... 89 millivolt at 3000. Interesting thing was bleeping the throttle from idle...and only from idle.... would ripple a bit more peaking at 118 millivolt ac.

Erling
Thats great ebrabaek, just the readings we needed!

ac ripple is not a problem with this bike and it won't be harming LiFePO4's at those low values.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #160
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WOW!
Deka ETX14 V Antigravity YTX12-16



As all who follow my writings know, I am a big fan of Deka and Odyssey AGM batteries. I'm not impressed with USA made Yuasa or Excide, and dubious about all things new including LiFePO4 batteries.

This Antigravity battery ROCKS!


So here are the tests to date

#1 Realistic Amp Hour tests LiFePO4 SLI manufactures are making wild claims about capacity using big numbers to the left of AH, then adding PBEQ to denote that they are talking about make believe amps rather then real ones.

The Amp Hour tests were done by using my caponord that even with all switchable loads off, still draws 11-12 amps key on mainly owing to the dual H4 headlamps that light up together.

Here was the cycle, warm day, switch key on, after 5 minutes hit the start button till the engine starts, hit the kill switch immediately, leave the key on for another 5 minutes and repeat till the battery dies.

The 12 AH Deka AGM battery killed the Shorai 18 AH PBEQ in this test, but was subsequently killed by the Antigravity battery rated 15AH PBEQ which went a full 50 minutes and 10 starts before I got bored.

I havent edited it into the video yet but heres a link to the test. http://youtu.be/7SflmGhblRY

Notice also, the Shorai cranks the beast of a Capo engine like shit compared to the stock Deka lead/acid battery.

The above test is relevant to using your bike headlight to set up camp with the engine off, charging gizmos with the bike off, getting knocked out as your battery runs down beside you if you are lucky enough for the engine to die or have a bike with a tip over switch like mine :)



Next up was the 200 amp load test for 30 seconds, repeated 3 times with 3 and a half minutes cool down time both for the battery and my load tester. This test is an indication of serious cranking power as well as a test of the batteries internal durability when doing seriously demanding cranking. Dekas and Odyssey batteries always pass this test, USA made Yuasa and Excide often don't because their buss bar burns in half which for those interested is what has happened in all the "sudden battery death" posts in threads about the BMW oe Excide/Yuasa battery.

Surprisingly my old Yuasa YTX12 held up in this test, but I have taken care of it and it is in a bike that charges high enough to get the battery 100% full which the F8 does not.

The first Shorai LFX18 belonging to LostRider failed this test by the voltage going unacceptably low, but I didn't push it and aborted the test so as not to kill a friends battery :)

A BMW dealership that cares about their customers sent me a brand new LFX18 and LFX27 with no strings attached to find out how reliable they really are. Well, I found out :)

24 seconds into the first 200 amp test of the LFX18 that was dealer provided, a cell internally opened with a little pop and a tiny bit of white smoke. You can actually watch it happen in the final part of the Cranking Stress Test video top of this post.

The 3rd Shorai to die in this test was the LFX27. It didn't check out till the second test but when it did it produced more smoke then any device that size has any right to.

No flames and not that much heat though it did warp the plastic case heavily.

Did I say more smoke then any device that size has a right to produce? That does not convey the reality. I tested the LFX27 on my balcony as I knew that the Shorais are not durable to high load draws. There was no wind that day and the header of white smoke that little battery produced was visible for miles. Enough so that a mid county firetruck passing by on a main street 3 blocks away pulled up in front of my house to find out if it was on fire.

I am not going to post this video as it will unduly freak people that watch videos but don't read. It was a lot of smoke but would not have harmed a bike, and truthfully, lead/acid batteries will do much worse as they melt down, believe me, I have seen it, but nothing that size I have ever seen will rival Shorai at producing white smoke.

Now, if you are thinking "who cranks a bike for 30 seconds in a row and expects the starter to not be on fire"?

I do, as do most other motorcycle and car technicians. You sure don't want to do it repeatedly without letting the starter cool down for a long time between tests, but long crank sessions are done often to allow time for diagnostic tools to sink up on signals and see what is missing.

Also a long cranking session is MUCH more likely to start a motorcycle that has something functioning poorly then a bunch of short cranking sessions.

The starter has a LOT of thermal mass so duty cycle is the name of the game. six 5 second cranking sessions in 5 minutes is exactly the same thing as one 30 second crank session every 5 minutes except the brief repeated sessions are harder on the starter really and starter brushes as there is much greater inrush current in multiple sessions then there is with one long session.

All that said, this test was a little extreme, but thats how you find weak points. Unfortunately it left me with no Shorai batteries to include in the latest test, but as the Shorais have failed every test subsequent to this which both Yuasa and Deka lead/acid batteries have passed, as well as the Antigravity LiFePO4 battery, with flying colors, I'm comfortable saying that compared to quality AGM batteries and compared to the Antigravity LiFePO4 battery, the Shorais suck.

If someone doesn't believe this is fair and wants to send me a Shorai battery to test like I did in the latest Cranking Stress Test, I will do it, but expect me to return a burned up battery Because I am pretty sure the Shorai will fail completely in this test as well.


So, the latest test.... This time I tested on motorcycle which can't be done quite as accurately. The temperature of the battery and motorcycle was a little lower for the Antigravity part of the test and my ability to precisely meter how long I held the start button reduced as it got later causing me to crank the Antigravity a bit longer then the Deka had to endure.

A note to the voltages. Minimum voltages were 1 millisecond slices of time and can be misleading.

1) It varied depending on where the engine stopped from the last test. If the engine stopped right at the beginning of a compression stroke then the voltage was bound to go lower briefly as the starter fought the mass and compression without any momentum.

2) LiFePo4 batteries appear to be a little soft for the first 10th of a second you suck power from them where upon the cell internally starts heating and producing more power, at least that is my theory.

None of the minimum voltages from the Antigravity battery could be considered low, and the average and maximum voltage while cranking overall was well higher then the Deka lead/acid which is what counts for the likely hood that stuck injectors and fuel pumps will un-stick, coils will spark strong, and the engine will crank at a speed more likely to start even a malfunctioning motorcycle.

The 1 millisecond minimum voltage is recorded and posted for applicability to ancient bendix style starters like the BMW boxer engined bikes have. Too low of voltage initially or at any time during cranking can cause the pinion to fall partially out of engagement on these bikes and lead to teeth stripped off of flywheels, which is why modern BMW boxers have circuits that cut the starter off in times of low voltage.

7.2 volts is the danger point with these ancient technology starter bikes and anything above 8.4 volts is fine. At no point did the Antigravity YTX12-16 fall anywhere near this low, so at least in moderate to warm weather, it is fine for BMW boxer use.


This test was applicable to determining just how likely a given battery is to start a malfunctioning bike. It is the single most important test of a battery that I would take into the bush or desert.

Coming up later, cold weather testing (using a cold storage facility to chill battery and bike). Testing in an R1200GS, mainly to prove it is an easier bike to crank then my beloved Capo, and long term testing in an F800GS to see if the battery stays in balance under lower voltage charging conditions.

Also I think we will test the Antigravity battery underwater to prove what the warranty says and what Scott, the owner of Antigravity says "these batteries are waterproof"

The last is important to adventure riders and tourers. Shorai batteries are NOT waterproof, and judging by the warranty exclusions of Ballistic Performance, their batteries are not either. All AGM batteries are waterproof because they are a sealed battery that would dry out and fail in days if they weren't.

Also build quality, we will actually get into that shortly.


What counts to me, and to sum up this ubber long post. Assuming no surprises or finding an even better battery, my beloved Deka battery is going to become my lawnmower battery, and the Antigravity YTX12-16 is going in my adventure bike.

Not affiliated with any battery manufacture, nor do I have any stock in any, though I do have stock in Apple, PG, and Phillip Morris, so please use ubber expensive gellet razors, buy apple products, and if you smoke, smoke marlboro LOL.

P.S. everyone has a price, but mine is at least 6 figures, so if some battery manufacture wants to buy me a couple of houses, I will find some test that makes your battery look good, but were talking high 6 figures so I doubt it will be worth it. Shorai, you are excluded as there is no test I can think of that will make your battery look good compared to others, and your FAQ BS pisses me off to much to try.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:04 PM   #161
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Hey Joel, impressive tests you are running!
With all the specsmanship going on with the vendors, the hard-core real-world tests tell the tale.

So, you seem very pleased with the Antigravity battery so far. I like their packaging and waterproof claim. I looked at their dimensions and weights and a question came up for me:

The biggest Antigravity Cranking Amps that will fit in my bike, a KTM990 (998cc V-twin), weighs 2.5lbs and the biggest Shorai Cranking Amps that will fit is 2.1lbs. Not a huge difference in weight, so what magic do you suppose Antigravity uses to get a lot more from a very similar weight/mass?

I worry if I got the Antigravity (claims for motors up to 1300cc), it too wouldn't have the power needed for first-crank cold weather starts, and another $220, poof!


Specs below:

OEM battery: Yuasa YTZ14S, 11AH, CCA 230, $200
6.0L x 3.44W x 4.38H, 8.6lbs


Antigravity max Cranking Amps model that will barely fit for Width in my bike.
YTZ10S-12, 12 AH(PbEq), 360 CA, $220
6.0L x 3.5W x 3.75H, 2.5 lbs


from: http://antigravitybatteries.com/?page_id=2267


Shorai max Cranking Amps model that will in fit my bike.
LFX18A1-BS12, 18 AH(PbEq), 270 CA, $190
5.83L x 2.6W x 4.13H, 2.1 lbs

from: http://www.shoraipower.com/c-1-batteries.aspx
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:07 PM   #162
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cyborg, if you can go higher, these: 4.25″ Long x 3.25″ Wide x 5.25″ Tall are the dimensions for Antigravitys small case format.

I am very much liking the Antigraity because it has held up to tests that have destroyed a total of 3 Shorai batteries. I am NOT brand loyal, so if another brand performs better, it will become my new best friend. I have loved Deka batteries for a decade and my Deka ETX 14 just got pulled out of my bike and became my electric lawn mower battery unless I run across something I don't like in further LiFePO4 testing.

Build quality and cell construction. Despite rumors, LiFePO4 batteries sealed in a cylindric pressure vessel really are hardier then LiFePO4 cells in a plastic pouch.

But..... I think a 12 cell would be challenged to perform to my standards on a 998 V-Twin.

As to winter, I have played around with my freezer so am getting an idea, but cold tests are yet to come.

Hold up a bit if you can. I have 3 additional branded batteries coming and all the finalist I am going to put through winter tests by using a cold storage facility to chill the bikes and batteries simultaneously. Hello negative 20F

I would give the worlds greatest shout out to the guy letting me use it, but he doesn't want his customers to know there are motorcycles being frozen beside their sides of beef

Also, I didn't realize the KTM990 had such a small battery box. I don't think Shorai will be sending me any batteries for testing, but I have already mapped the performance of the LFX18, 21, and 27. I could request some batteries that will fit in that bike for testing from manufactures I have not blasted, but would love to have someone with one drop by my house so I can measure its starting demands. I would be VERY surprised if it is harder to start then my Caponord with its 1000cc V-Twin and 2 always on H4 headlights, but If you run across anyone on the forums that hales near St. Louis, suggest they hook up with me as measurements are better then assumptions..


Any other adventure bikes that use a smaller battery then a YTX12 I should know about???

Oh, and as for the waterproof claim, the Antigravity is sitting under 12 inches of water in a bucket as I type, will be till morning then it goes back into my bike for a 3000 mile trip. Once I get back I will sink it into the bucket again and load test it some more as well as charge it. Fully expect the terminals to turn green, and if they don't, I will add some salt to the water. I take nothing on faith. Perhaps I will sink one of the failed Shorais so everyone can watch bubbles come up, or would that be vindictive lol.

I MIGHT also end up testing a Ballistic battery, but someone needs to send me one first AND I need to hear from the manufacture that they are waterproof or I won't bother. The liquid immersion exclusion on their warranty page makes me doubtful.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:03 AM   #163
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Oh yeah I was eyeing those 5.12" high batteries since I could then put in a 480 CA or the really expensive 600 CA in there, just nead .75" more headroom. On the KTM990 the battery is in the low front of the engine in the skid plate, in a full-wrap plastic battery box for ruggedness. There is a little space above it, hmmm...

I used Deka's for 10 years in my Triumph Tigers (885 to 955 triples), great batteries. I really like Odyssey batts, very heavy but rugged and they still do not make a size that will properly fit any of the last 3 bikes I had. It's either too big "cruiser" style, the PC310 or nothing, and the 310 doesn't have enough punch for a big twin, barely works, but anemic.

I'll hold off to see where your tests go. Weather is getting better and the existing Shorai's are starting the bikes fine in the 50's.

Have a good trip!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
cyborg, if you can go higher, these: 4.25″ Long x 3.25″ Wide x 5.25″ Tall are the dimensions for Antigravitys small case format.

I am very much liking the Antigraity because it has held up to tests that have destroyed a total of 3 Shorai batteries. I am NOT brand loyal, so if another brand performs better, it will become my new best friend. I have loved Deka batteries for a decade and my Deka ETX 14 just got pulled out of my bike and became my electric lawn mower battery unless I run across something I don't like in further LiFePO4 testing.

Build quality and cell construction. Despite rumors, LiFePO4 batteries sealed in a cylindric pressure vessel really are hardier then LiFePO4 cells in a plastic pouch.

But..... I think a 12 cell would be challenged to perform to my standards on a 998 V-Twin.

As to winter, I have played around with my freezer so am getting an idea, but cold tests are yet to come.

Hold up a bit if you can. I have 3 additional branded batteries coming and all the finalist I am going to put through winter tests by using a cold storage facility to chill the bikes and batteries simultaneously. Hello negative 20F
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:33 AM   #164
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Thanks for all this testing Joel. I was doing some research on the Shorai batteries when I came across this thread.

My 2009 Husky TE-610 let me down last week on the 2nd day of a 2k mile trip when it failed to start after lunch. I was thinking at first I had a charging issue as I had replaced the stator cover just before the trip and had been in there messing with the wires etc, but now thinking it was just the battery that went bad as its resting voltage is now about 11.5 volts and drops down to 8v under starting load and won't charge up. This is the FI model, so even after jumping it off when it happened, it still wasn't running correctly. Anyway, since I wasn't certain it wasn't just a battery issue at the time and I was still pretty close to home, I decided just to be safe to go back home and grab my wife's BMW F650GS to continue the trip on. I figured I'd research it more when I got home which I'm doing now.

So now I need a new battery for the Husky and was trying to decide if a LifePo4 battery was really worth the extra money over a sealed AGM battery. The Husky is actually pretty new to me (bought 1 month ago), so not even sure how robust the charging system is and what voltages it puts out when idling or running at like 3-5k rpm's. It also seems to be a pretty high stress starting on a battery or that battery was already on its way out and I just didn't realize it. Most times I had to go into N to start the bike as it really seemed to stress the starter while in gear with the clutch pulled in. Who knows, maybe with a new battery, I won't have any starting issues and it will spin over a whole lot faster.

So question, if I'm on a multi-day camping trip without access to electricity and need to charge small electronics at night, what battery would work best to start safely in the morning? This would include BT communication headset and maybe a phone or camera. Would try to minimize what I left charging and the draw from any of these devices should be pretty low.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:33 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by BlueLghtning View Post
Thanks for all this testing Joel. I was doing some research on the Shorai batteries when I came across this thread.
...

So question, if I'm on a multi-day camping trip without access to electricity and need to charge small electronics at night, what battery would work best to start safely in the morning? This would include BT communication headset and maybe a phone or camera. Would try to minimize what I left charging and the draw from any of these devices should be pretty low.
BlueLightening... Funny running into you on this thread!

I too was reading up on batteries to replace the Yuasa in the Terra Mostro, not dying, just long in tooth and I want a spare on the shelf for when it goes. I'd already decided on the Antigravity and ordered one, but got hooked on this thread once Joel mentioned he was going to test them. Thanks, Joel for all the work on this. Really outstanding. I seemed to have made a decent choice, imagine that.

Regarding the overnight charging of little electronics -- I used to be much more concerned about that, but after a total of 16 weeks of ipod / intercom / camera battery recharging nightly off the (tiny) DRZ batteries on the Mobius trips, sometimes in temps down into the 30's, I don't worry so much any more. We've got stock aftermarket AGM batteries in those bikes, but they're really small. I've never had a hicough starting the bikes in the morning. The only times we've had to bump start have been when we've left the headlight on during lunch, the heated grips (overnight), or had a dead stator. I can't imagine the Antigravity 12-cell I bought for the Ducati will do worse than those wimpy DRZ batteries.
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"I came into this game for the action, the excitement; go anywhere, travel light... get in, get out... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form." --Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985. The Mobius Trip index | Spot tracking live 4/18-5/4/13 | AdventureLoft™ Tent Space
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