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Old 05-10-2012, 07:02 AM   #76
Narsisco Lopez
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Originally Posted by slackmeyer View Post
Woody suggested superglue- it is strong, but it's brittle.
To clarify, Woody's uses GAP-FILLING super glue (and it's only 1 step of the multi-step process)... BIG DIFFERENCE.

I was standing right next to Toby as he explained his tried and true process. As Woody has said above, it's ALL in the details and not rushing the steps.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:16 PM   #77
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Thanks for the detailed note and pictures. Really appreciate it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackmeyer View Post
Woody suggested superglue- it is strong, but it's brittle. I wouldn't trust it to hold air by itself, because I'm sure it will form little cracks in use, but it keeps the softer polyurethane sealant from pushing out.
So if the sole purpose of the superglue is to prevent the polyurethane from seeping through the cracks, I presume the Goop that is already on the spoke nipples will serve the same function. I suppose it's trial and error from here on.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:24 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
Thanks for the detailed note and pictures. Really appreciate it!

So if the sole purpose of the superglue is to prevent the polyurethane from seeping through the cracks, I presume the Goop that is already on the spoke nipples will serve the same function. I suppose it's trial and error from here on.
It should serve the same purpose. Just keep in mind that there are large centrifugal forces trying to throw the sealant away from the rim, so make sure whatever you do is well bonded to the rim.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:41 AM   #79
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Bringing this back to life

Tatsubon - did you sand/grind down the spoke nipples to be level with the rim suface? It appears so, but I wanted to be sure. My Outex kit arrived the other day and I'm getting started on the prep work.

Also, as it's been several months since your outex install - how has it been?
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by yuu View Post
Bringing this back to life

Tatsubon - did you sand/grind down the spoke nipples to be level with the rim suface? It appears so, but I wanted to be sure. My Outex kit arrived the other day and I'm getting started on the prep work.

Also, as it's been several months since your outex install - how has it been?

Hi Yuu,

Yes, I took a small 1" disk sander to those spoke nipples. As per Outex instructions they did ask for a level surface.
Take your time with the prep work. If you have access to a shot blast, it dose not hurt to get out some of the oxidation you will find. Then degrease it properly.
Spend some extra time to seal each spoke several times over a several days before applying your outex kit.

Well just out of curiosity I just re checked my tire pressure and its now sitting at 30psi. (6500kms later)
Drop of 2 psi since my first setting up after seating the bead. Running my E-07 tires at 32psi (Max 33psi)

All in all, I am very satisfied with Outex's Kit! I haven't added any extra air to it since day one.
Not so thrilled about the E-07 though. Its a good slab tire IMO.

Well hope this may help answer some of your questions.
Good luck with your Installation.

- Tatsubon
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:56 PM   #81
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So you put a sealer on each nipple? What did you use? Ive skimmed the thread an seen a few thing used like gap filling super glue.

I've cleaned the hell out of things so far. Ground and sanded off any rough or sharp bits on the nipples and rim interior. But I have not planes the nipples level. But it seems I should get with it and do that as well

2 psi in all that time? That's nothing at all. I'd be a bit shocked if my street bike didn't loose a pound or two over several months just due to temp drops from summer to early fall
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:48 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuu View Post
So you put a sealer on each nipple? What did you use? Ive skimmed the thread an seen a few thing used like gap filling super glue.

I've cleaned the hell out of things so far. Ground and sanded off any rough or sharp bits on the nipples and rim interior. But I have not planes the nipples level. But it seems I should get with it and do that as well

2 psi in all that time? That's nothing at all. I'd be a bit shocked if my street bike didn't loose a pound or two over several months just due to temp drops from summer to early fall

Yes, I sealed each spoke nipple several times over with a Proper Curing Time of minimum 24hrs after each application.
On hindsight I would not use "Seal All" again. Try GOOP if you can get your hands on it. "Seal All" had too many inclusions of air bubbles as it cures.
It also shrinks to about 25% of its initial volume. Took me about 3~4 applications to have it level out so that there were no deep impressions.
I wanted as flat of a surface for the Outex membrane to bond to. I see no harm in using gap filling CA if you can get your hands on it.
The added bonus to filling each divot at each spoke nipple is that there are no void pockets were water can accumulate and promote erosion.



PS - Thanks Woody for setting it straight. Glad you are looking after this topic. Everything you mentioned I would recommend doing.
Sniffing too much volatile glue has made me goofy;)

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Old 09-13-2012, 11:02 AM   #83
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Thanks Tatsubon

Goof or Goop? I can find a sealer, a line of them under the product name of Goop. Seems to be the same folks that make Seal All and Shoe Goo
http://www.eclecticproducts.com/retail_products.htm

Amazing GOOP Sport & Outdoor notes an application of fixing inner tubes. Hmm

But not Goof.

Gap filling CA should just be a matter of a trip to a local hobby shop

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Old 09-13-2012, 11:11 AM   #84
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woody's tire sealing technique,some clarification...

just perused this thread again..

the first steps of my technique can also be used as a solid basis for applying the Outex membrane...if you use my silicone final application you needn't worry too much about sanding down nipples.spokes FYI,,we never send out wheels that have spokes sticking out past the nipple[at least that is part of my standards]

Tatsubon in previous post had some good stuff to point out and reached the same conclusion that Seal All leaves much to be desired..

the main reason that i started using CA gap filling super-glue had to do with :
1,,a rock hard solid base to apply the Goop..done right ..ie fill-up the center of nipple AND the space between nipple circumference and the dimple consistently yields the perfect base for the next step

2,,we now use Extra thick Super Glue/CA to fill the major voids around the nipple,,the added bonus is using the accelerator in a fine mist spray bottle ,,a tiny squirt solidifies the gap filler. and on the Extra thick CA. a quick wipe with alcohol /acetone and you are ready to apply Goop,,you save a whole day of not having to wait for curing. Next,,,


3,,we now only need one good application of Goop sealer that covers the entire super glued area and extends circa 1/8'' beyond the super-glued area.,,
,,i do not find it an issue of concern regarding how brittle super glue is,,have had no failures due to using the stuff.

FYI,,i'm sure the main reason Outex recommends all that sanding down of nipple has to do with minimizing stretching/puncturing the sealing membrane.,,,if you all look at their video you will see how much the membrane has to stretch and how it wraps itself around the nipple into any crevice,,that simply shows ya what air pressure does..like water seeking its own level,,,air pressure seeks escape and pushes membranes into any depression or orifice.

hope that helps

woody

PS it's GOOP mr Yuu goof is when ya make a mistake applying the Goop
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:21 AM   #85
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Thanks Woody!

Yeah I assumed the sanding/leveling was to ensure that you didn't over stretch/stress the materials once air pressure on once side is different than the other.

Mythbusters did an amusing 'test' on an old school hard hat divers rig. The premise was that the sufrace compressor cut out and the back flow inhibitor valve in the air line failed - allowing the water pressure to act on what had been a pressurized helmet/suit that now was depressurized... not pretty and I think that was in 10-12 psi of water
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:05 PM   #86
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Finally gave Outex a try

Well, I tried the Seal All and Goop method and had success with the back wheel but the front wheel would develop a leaky spoke or two every weekor two.

I finally decided to give Outex a try and I have over 4,000 miles on the wheels with no problems. The kit is easy to install and only took an hour to do both wheels.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:57 AM   #87
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Just got my OutEx kit installed over this last weekend. Time will be the real teller, but so far there's been to pressure drop in either wheel after setting them to 42 PSI per the instructions to settle everything in. No change in 8-10 hours is a good sign.

The gel/tape they use to seal things is a bit fussy - so anyone who gets this kit, DON'T rush that phase. Slow and steady is very important.

I really pursued this kit as I was fitting it to the wheels for my 690 that I'm want to run at the track. Dropping 19 oz off the front wheel and more off the rear should make for a decent performance bump. Less rotating mass I need to get to speed, scrub the speed from and force to change directions. Looking forward to getting the orange mule back on the roads!
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:48 AM   #88
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ya got it right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by yuu View Post
Just got my OutEx kit installed over this last weekend. Time will be the real teller, but so far there's been to pressure drop in either wheel after setting them to 42 PSI per the instructions to settle everything in. No change in 8-10 hours is a good sign.

The gel/tape they use to seal things is a bit fussy - so anyone who gets this kit, DON'T rush that phase. Slow and steady is very important.

I really pursued this kit as I was fitting it to the wheels for my 690 that I'm want to run at the track. Dropping 19 oz off the front wheel and more off the rear should make for a decent performance bump. Less rotating mass I need to get to speed, scrub the speed from and force to change directions. Looking forward to getting the orange mule back on the roads!
years ago,,sealing the wheels for tubeless was one of my favorite aces up my sleeve not to mention using wider rims and Superlacing the wheels to get optimal performance out of my /customers machinery....

FYI on the SM circuit you are talking an average 1 second /lap drop in lap times,,at Daytona it was a whopping 3-4 second decrease in lap times,,,
so ther ya have it
good luck

woody
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:08 AM   #89
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Next trick is lighter rotor that should be good for near a pound less.

Tires are still holding level 48 hours later. So in this short a term, seems all is well.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:34 AM   #90
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Thumb Woody's method works!

I debated / researched this issue heavily last year and ended up using a 4 step process based on Woody's method. I've converted 3 sets of rims, a KLR with Woody's Superlace, a KTM 530 running TKC80s and a 990 with the stock Scorps. Both KTMs are running the stock rims. I'd offer two suggestions, for the thick set sealer use a rubberized CA adhesive. It will offer the strength of Superglue without the brittleness. If you can afford the time, allow 4 hours or so of cure time for every 3 to 4 spokes (each step) and forego the quick cure spray. That approach obviously will not work in a production environment but I got better results without it. Having said all that I'll never go back to tubes, on road or off. All 6 rims are doing great, running light and cool, fully balanced. Even the 530 is rock solid at 80 mph with no wondering or strange wheel vibrations. Tire changes are a snap and a puncture is repaired in 10 minutes without even loosening an axel bolt. My only real sacrifice is that I don't air down to ridiculous pressures when off road and I was never a fan of that practice anyway, especially on heavier dual sports. The only time I ever had to "ride out" on a flat (almost 80 miles, 0 psi on the rear of the 990) was due to a tube failure inside of a tire that was not punctured or damaged in any way, running factory spec air pressure. And for those who worry about dinging a rim and not being able to hold air, pay attention to your suspension settings to avoid bottoming, and avoid super low tire pressures like the plague. If you still manage to blow a rim, you can ride out on a flat tire as long as you keep the tire on the rim and don't overheat the carcass, I've done it. I found the bike was manageable at 18 to 25 mph. You may have to stop occasionally to let the tire carcass cool. Obviously the tire is only fit for the dumpster once you get back to base. The tape method mentioned by the OP might make a nice addition to a good sealing job but personally, I wouldn't trust it as the only seal.
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