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Old 03-11-2012, 08:42 PM   #16
2tallnwide
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Originally Posted by rockmurf View Post
I think right now using kbb retail is too high to pay.
I agree in most cases, unless it's a bike that is really hot at the time, hard to find, etc.

KBB retail on my cruiser is $4600+ -....I'd be lucky to get the $3105 trade in value for it right now though.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:41 PM   #17
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If the dealership is a good one it really is going to be different from bike to bike.

As an example: Today I sold a bike that was listed at $15,995.00 for $14,387.00. I will not go into the reasons for the odd Number... I will say the customer offered $14k. and the price he paid was due to how much we owned it for and the new tires, brake pads and a few other things were also taken into account.

The listed price was slightly higher than NADA book.

Another example: We had a bike listed at $13,995.00. It was basically a new 2009 as it had only 540 miles on it. We were offered $13,000.00 and had to say "No". The reason was that we had sold the bike new in 2009 then the purchaser needed to have a knee replaced and never did get to a point where he felt comfortable riding it.... Thus the low miles. When he asked us to buy it back we took pity on him and gave him all the money. We had no wiggle room in the price to mark it down.
In the end it worked out as it was a beautiful bike and worth every penny of the asking price.

A reputable dealer will price their used bikes based on what they own them for with book values as a guide... NOT just what they can get.

Where I work, if we have two similar bikes and we took one in for a thousand less than the other it IS reflected in both the asking price and the selling price. Not only so but we will park them side by side… The good deals go fast.

We buy bikes from other dealerships and car dealerships as well. Sometimes we get them cheeper than normal. Occationally we will get a good deal at an auction or an owner will ride in and ask will you buy my bike for $xxx.xx? Where I work when we get a good deal it gets a good deal it get's passed along.

We do have a building to maintain, employees to pay and a power bill that needs to be covered. A dealership should be supported buy its customers if they want it to be around when they need it. A good dealership that treats people fairly will likely be able to stay in business.

We are nice but we are also willing to say "No" As a buyer just be nice and remember that You can't even get a "NO" if you don't ask the question.


Stepping off soap box.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:25 AM   #18
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KBB = a suggestion at best.

The blue book might be wrong in either direction. It is at best a suggestion
and is never the final determinant of what an item is worth, most especially
in the case of an item which is both rare and sought after, for example a BMW R90S
or a KTM 950 Super Enduro.

The MARKET is what decides what something is worth. In other words, the only thing that
matters is whether the seller and buyer can agree on a price.

Bring at least enough cash for a deposit if you are serious about buying something,
and if you and the seller can agree on a price, you then give the seller that cash
and he gives you a signed bill of sale which indicates the date, VIN, balance due
at time of exchange of title ( final sale ), etc. It is best if you have a third person also
sign the bill of sale as "witness" in case the seller decides to back out. With such a document you
have a legally binding contract. WIthout such a document you don't have any legal recourse, in the event the seller
decides to change his mind.

And if you KNOW you want to lowball the seller, do him and yourself both a favor and get that out of the way
up front. There is no advantage conferred by waiting until the end to spring a lowball offer on a seller, it just
wastes time to pretend to be interested at the asking price when you have no intention of paying it.

Dealers need to make money in order to survive. I buy stuff at the local dealer whenever possible even
though I know it means paying a bit more. When you need the sort of help only a dealer can provide,
that won't be available if the dealer has gone out of business. And going out of business is exactly what
a dealer who makes no profit is going to do. Many have done just that in the past few years, and the worst
is not over yet. So don't beat your dealer up too badly, unless you want to see a "for rent" sign in the
window where there used to be bikes.

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Old 03-12-2012, 09:53 AM   #19
Tubulchain
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Haggling is not an artform because its never pretty. It sucks and it's draining. It is however easy to learn the basics of solid negotiation.

For a toy which is what a motorcycle is, value is subjective. There is no true price it's all marketplace and timing and marketing.

Best thing is to buy the bike you want from someone you like and trust and accept that you are going to pay for the thrill of motorcycling all along the way from start to finish. Remember they are inexpensive to own, not to buy but to own for the most part. Look at it compared to a boat or sportscar or girlfriend or gambling binge. Waaaaaayyyyy more value than any of those!

The only must is to BUY THE RIGHT ONE FOR YOU!

Take the time to know yourself, be willing to pay for the thrills, find a good dealer.

Blow your cash it's about the fun. Invest in fun.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
When you need the sort of help only a dealer can provide,
that won't be available if the dealer has gone out of business.
Other than warranty and recall work, what sort of help can only a dealer provide?
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubulchain View Post
Haggling is not an artform because its never pretty. It sucks and it's draining. It is however easy to learn the basics of solid negotiation. ~

Take the time to know yourself, be willing to pay for the thrills, find a good dealer.
Blow your cash it's about the fun. Invest in fun.
not true... haggling if done correctly doesn't make anyone mad. all I'm after is to find out if we match. after a deal fair to both parties. before I contact anyone, I'm prepared to buy. if the deal is fair to both parties. it may not be yours... but my definition of a fair deal is ... if it doesn't work out... I can easily get my $$$ back.

for instance... on flea market someone had a set of used aluminum paniers listed that had not sold for quite sometime. contacted the seller to see if we could come together. after finding out more details... conclusion was aluminum panniers were not a recognizable brand like Happy Trails, Jessee, Tourtech, etc.

there's several sources of Happy trail knock-offs (quality construction) for about $300 brand new. He wanted $300 + shipping and would not budge by much if any. so instead of wasting any more of my and his time. told him thanks but gotta pass ... have a great day.

if you are the type of person that doesn't like to haggle... by all means go to the dealership and pay full boat retail. takes all types to make the world go round... was once told by a used car salesman, there's a butt for every seat!!!
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #22
GotMojo?
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One other thing to factor in, atleast I did, is.... "time is money". When I bought my WR250X, I traded a bike in. I haggled a bit at the dealer and we were about $300 apart. I left. Sat in my car for a bit thinking about it.... trying to decide if leaving was really worth it over $300. They had the bike I wanted, and that particular bike was a little hard to find in these parts, and I had driven 30 minutes to the dealer to buy the thing. Leaving and waiting for the sales guy to call, or perhaps trying to find the bike at another dealer, was going to take more of my time, which as a business owner, is pretty valuable. So, I decided WTF, and just went back in and bought the damn thing. I figured it wasn't worth "walking" over $300, especially if it required me to find another bike like it at a different dealer and going through the whole haggling process over again, with possibly a similar outcome.

I know some people are different, and will go to extreme lengths to get the best deal possible, but I figure I've got better things to do just to save a couple bucks.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmiguy View Post
Other than warranty and recall work, what sort of help can only a dealer provide?
This is not a serious question is it?
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #24
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The hardest part about negotiating IMO is knowing when you're being offered a good deal (either buying or selling). A lot of people always seem to feel as if they were "cheated" by a dealer, when in fact they did get a good deal (my dad is one of these people).

The best way around that is research. In general, the research should take 3-4 times longer than the negotiation so you're certain you have adequate background information. In the case of buying/selling a motorcycle, you have to get values from various sources...kbb, nada, forums, etc. If you're buying a new bike, that means the value may be MSRP if it's a popular model. Then, based on the research, you have to determine your "walk away" number...and stick to it. This isn't your best deal number...it is a realistic upper end value that you're willing to pay without hating yourself later.

Both sides leave happy in a successful negotiation, as neither one feels cheated. Negotiations also go A LOT faster when you have good background information.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #25
DAKEZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubulchain View Post
Haggling is not an artform because its never pretty. It sucks and it's draining.
If it isn't "pretty"... it sucks or it is draining you are doing it wrong.

Have fun. Be Nice. Ask questions. It really is that simple.

If you go in with an attitude making demands, nobody is going to want to help you. If you go in and have fun they (I) will like you and bend over backwards getting you what you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubulchain View Post
For a toy which is what a motorcycle is.

There is your problem right there. You still think of a Motorcycle as a toy.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #26
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I'm not much of a haggler. I'm not very good at it. Most of what I buy is not done through haggling. I know in some cultures they don't buy much without haggling over price. I am glad I can go to a grocery store and fill my cart without feeling like I need to haggle with the manager of the store over what the gallon of milk costs. I have friends who would love to haggle over a gallon of milk.

Even though I don't like to haggle, I do like to get a good deal, so I shop around a good bit. Especially on big ticket items I compare prices a lot. I have found that buying services work well for me on items like cars. My bank has a car buying service that negotiates a good price for you. A good haggler could probably do better, but for me it is quick and easy and I have gotten good deals on cars using it.

For a bike, I am a buy and keep kind of guy, not a buy and sell guy like many on here. My only advice is to have a price you are comfortable with and don't get emotional over it. Of course I don't always follow my own advice. If I really want something and can afford it, I don't sweat over getting the very best deal possible. I like vintage safety razors, and tend to pay a premium because condition is very important to me. I don't mind it, because they are still pretty cheap and I can afford to buy top quality at a slightly higher price.

Best of luck with your shopping.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
This is not a serious question is it?
Pretty serious.

I don't see dealerships providing me with enough value to justify going out of my way to look after their profit margin on the off chance that I'll need them somewhere down the line; but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Some items to keep in mind:
-I do all my own service and repairs.
-The local independent parts house has better prices and way more stuff on the shelf than any of the new dealerships. Better hours and service, too.
-Anything they don't have on hand can be sourced through the internet quicker and cheaper than a dealership, even with expedited shipping. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but it's been true for me in literally every single case I've compared pricing and availability on something I needed.

Do you not buy merchandise on clearance sale because it may be sold at a loss to the retailer?
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:42 PM   #28
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Use the average of Kelly Retail vs. Trade. as a starting point when dealing with a private party if the bike is in good condition. Adjust up or down accordingly. Time of year, condition, mileage and supply of said model will also figure in to which end of the spectrum a "fair" price falls. If the bike is at a dealer, for me if they want full retail, the bike better be an EXCELLENT example and come with some kind of warranty.

Beware of people who use terms like"thousands invested". They will never see a "return" on that investment, at least not from me. These people tend to be the most difficult to deal with as they are emotionally and financially "invested" into the bike.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JJGeo View Post
The hardest part about negotiating IMO is knowing when you're being offered a good deal (either buying or selling). A lot of people always seem to feel as if they were "cheated" by a dealer, when in fact they did get a good deal (my dad is one of these people).

The best way around that is research. In general, the research should take 3-4 times longer than the negotiation so you're certain you have adequate background information. In the case of buying/selling a motorcycle, you have to get values from various sources...kbb, nada, forums, etc. If you're buying a new bike, that means the value may be MSRP if it's a popular model. Then, based on the research, you have to determine your "walk away" number...and stick to it. This isn't your best deal number...it is a realistic upper end value that you're willing to pay without hating yourself later.

Both sides leave happy in a successful negotiation, as neither one feels cheated. Negotiations also go A LOT faster when you have good background information.
absolutely... don't be telling the seller he's too high without backing it up. be prepared to give a source.

back to the example of seller asking $300 + shipping for a used set of aluminum pannier that sells for $300 new. did my homework before contacting seller... compared pic's and proved his panniers sold for about $300 new. then give exact source of where to buy em for that.

then asked for a price adjustment to make deal fair to both parties. he stuck to his price even after knowing they sold for $300 new. said thanks but no thanks and quickly got off the phone.

above deal could have easily gone the other direction if seller was willing to sell a used item for a used price. then both parties would have been happy and a deal made. doing your homework makes all the difference when haggling.

perhaps he's looking for a buyer that has not done their homework and doesn't like to haggle.
back to the ... there's a butt for every seat!
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:29 PM   #30
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I sell Ferrari's, and negotiate deals on a daily basis with an average value of between $250k-350k, and have done plenty of deals that were $1m or more. Fortunately I don't have to negotiate on new Ferrari deals, though occasionally we have to negotiate a trade value on those as well. On pre-owned Ferrari's I have to negotiate selling price and terms (service, warranty, etc.) with the buyer, and we do a lot of consignment sales, which mean negotiating with sellers as well. If there's financing involved, I often have to negotiating with lenders for rates, terms, etc. Negotiating is negotiating, regardless of the numbers.

I can give you a few tips, from someone who does it for a living, and also someone who's bought dozens of motorcycles, new and used.


-Non-price considerations. Price is important to everyone, but what are considerations besides price? Reputation of the dealer, location, tranportation (if you find one cheaper out of town, but have to pay to ship it). I challenge anyone to tell me what they paid for a bike they bought six months ago, but everyone can tell me how they liked (or disliked) the dealer and how they were treated, etc. If you're final drive takes a dump, the guy you want on your side is your dealer.

-Ask yourself if you're a shopper or a buyer. Is there a realistic price or terms that motivates you to buy, today? If not, there's no point into entering into any sort of negotiation, and be up-front and honest when shopping.

-Have a realistic expectation for pricing, and do your homework before you start shopping and/or negotiating. This part is probably where most buyers get it wrong, and probably the hardest part of the process.

-Be honest. You have no idea how many times I've heard someone tell me they can buy the "exact same car" for $40k less than mine, to which I usually ask them why they didn't, and then recommend they do.

-Don't ask "What's your best price?" This one drives me crazy, and I usually reply that the best price for me is the asking price. You can't expect a seller to negotiate with himself and just start throwing out numbers until you say "I'll take it!". More later.

-Be prepared to buy. This means bringing cash if you're paying cash, or making sure you've got the credit ability to close a deal.

-When it comes to actually negotiating, know a good deal when it's in front of you and don't blow it by trying to get the sun and the moon.

I would recommend some basic shopping to find what you want, and get a feel for the sellers. Shopping doesn't mean negotiating, so it's best to be very clear at this point when interacting with salespeople that you're not ready to buy just yet, but appreciate their help and if they have what you want that you'll be back.

After a little shopping you'll have a pretty good feeling about who you want to buy from based on the shopping experience, so if you're at the point that you're ready to buy, and they have what you want, it's negotiating time!

You should already have a relationship with your salesperson from your shopping experience, and I recommend calling and making an appointment. This shows that you're a serious buyer, and that you consider them to be professional and respect their time. Let them know your intention is to buy the motorcycle you've picked out, and that you're ready to buy and want to buy today if the two of you can agree on figures. I'd also let them know that you came to them first and you'd like to buy it from them, but would be shopping around if you couldn't come to an agreement. Instead of the "what's your best price?" line, tell the salesperson that you've done some homework, and you believe that a fair price for their bike is "X", and if you could get that deal you'll take it. I'd start my offer 5% or so back of where you can actually confirm deals are being made, by your research. The dealer will likely come back with a counter offer, and at that point if he's somewhere close to where you believe you can buy the bike, it's time to get off the price and open up other points of negotation, like including the first service, throwing some accessories in, future parts discount, extended warranty, etc. At this point things usually come together pretty quickly and everyone is happy. If you're dealing with a professional dealership and you've done your homework ahead of time then the process is pretty straighforward. The thing to stress is that you'd like to do your business with them, you're ready to do it now, and that if you can't put it together that you're going to visit another dealer.

One mistake I see a lot of guys make is buying something they don't really want because they got a huge discount on it. Stay focused on what you want, because the ether of the great deal will wear off soon enough and you'll be wishing you'd stuck to your original plan.

Also, a great deal on last year's bike is fine, but if you trade bikes every few years, you'll be selling a bike that's a year older, so it's a matter of saving it now, and losing it later.
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