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Old 05-02-2012, 01:20 PM   #106
ErikDK
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Bingo! Full plate in first attempt.


Contact patch - check
Riding on the shoulder - check
Insurance companies - check
Just wondering about a few things - check

I've seen this post (less the sketch) 100 times before.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by ErikDK View Post
Bingo! Full plate in first attempt.


Contact patch - check
Riding on the shoulder - check
Insurance companies - check
Just wondering about a few things - check

I've seen this post (less the sketch) 100 times before.
Bingo!

Failure to answer any of the questions - check
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:51 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ragin Rabbi View Post
Bingo!

Failure to answer any of the questions - check
http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

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Old 05-02-2012, 09:13 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by bikefree View Post
Seven pages and still no answer to the original question. A couple people gave their guesses at CT size. One person entered a report on his experience with CTs on a DL1000 and didn't give a tire size.

Can someone who has run the darkside on a strom give this poor guy and answer and not just an opinion?

My 1st reply on the 1st page-
Quote:
There are not really many sizes to choose from. I'm running a 205/55 if I remember right. I think I remember seeing something like A 195/45 but I think that might be a smidge too small in Dia. but hey,,,,, you never know till ya try.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:44 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikDK View Post
Bingo! Full plate in first attempt.


Contact patch - check
Riding on the shoulder - check
Insurance companies - check
Just wondering about a few things - check

I've seen this post (less the sketch) 100 times before.
Well how about giving some more detailed answers to those, than ´justf*ngoogleit´? I went through this thread, and either I failed to notice them (that is possible, in which case just pointing out, what posts they are, would be fine), or they weren´t there.

And I know the insurance thing is gonna make some people laugh, but I thought the US always was the promised land of lawsuits.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:55 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by azgsa View Post
Big blocks maybe, but how's the off-road performance compare on the CT?

Have aleady addressed that but I'll restate for clarity. The CT is the equal or even better to the Big Block on run of the mill, packed dirt roads. On sand, it's not as clear because I didn't get a chance to run real sandy conditions with the BB. Can compare the CT to the 705s though as I did run the 705s on my Trand Lab trip and I ran the CT on a recent trip down to Apalaciacola where I ran a few dirt roads which were pretty much sugar sand as compared to the Trans Lab's more course, builder's/sand box type sand. The CT performed better than the 705 in finer sand.

In the mud, no contest,,,, the BB kicks the CT's rear. But, consider that the CT will last prolly 20K miles {as opposed to 2-3K for the BB, has equal or more traction on tarmac or packed roads while straight up or cornering. Considering all that, the CT is a much better all round compromise than the BB.

705's and Tourances, perhaps if you ride like my GF. No wait, she's pretty fast. Maybe my mom.

Have you run a CT? If not, don't make assumptions based on non-existant data. I have run the CT, the 705 and the Tourance and I actually have that experience. While I'm no Rossi,,,,, I'm not too lethargic of a rider either. I hate getting into these discussions because "fast" is so very subjective. I can tell you I used to be pretty fast when I ran D Production back ages ago. Last time I was on the track I could run high 1:05/ low 1:06s at Tally on a relatively stock 99 R1 back about three years ago. Look up times and you will see that's still pretty quick especially on sub par tires {running hard compound endurance slicks because, well,,,, I'm cheap and there were no trophies waiting for anyone at the end of the session} and the make and model bike I was on. On dirt, not as fast but I still move that big DL650 pretty quick compared to most.

Compare it to a street tire Maynard.
I already have,,, the 705, the Tourance and the ME880. All street tires there Dooby.



Longevity isn't a performance benefit. 'Fiddling' could be a convenience benefit. If money weren't the issue then a street M/C tire (assuming you don't need any off-road performance since you even consider putting a CT on) would last 6-7K miles, enought to cross the US twice, or make it to any place in central then change and So America on a transcontinental trip.

So it's $ vs. performance.

No,,,, it's not. Once again {because apparently, you are not too keen on catching things the 1st time}, I initially tried the CT because I wanted a tire that would last more than 6-7K miles, matter of fact,,,, double that, like 15K miles. I wanted that not because I wanted to save 200$ but rather because I hate procurring tires while on a trip. Why be forced to change tires on a trip if you can find a tire that will make it and isn't too much of a compromise in the others areas you deem important?

Even when I'm a geezer and riding slower (though not as slow as you it seems) and on a fixed income, I'll not be using car tires.
Like I said, I hate getting into these "I'm faster than you" bullshit arguments,,,,, especially on the internet. I hate doing so because neither you nor I "know" for a fact how fast the other is and in this case, it's a moot point anyway because the CT has equal too or more than many motorcycle tires that people use as common practice. I know that because I have experience with the CT, the 705s, and the Tourances on my DL650. I also have experience with many other types of tires and can fairly readily compare to those as well. Plain and simple, I can ride fast enough with the CT on the back of the DL that I can scrap the pegs and my DL has been raised nearly 2 inches over stock. If it were still stock I could easily scrap the pegs. The CT definetly has more traction straight up so if the CT has enough traction to scrap the pegs {and I'm more worried about pushing the front 705 than sliding the rear} and more traction straight up,,,, then why do I need any more traction???? Especially on a bike where ultimate traction and handling capability isn't a paramount requirement as opposed to longevity and all around performance. In that aspect, the CT fits the needs perfectly, least for me. Maybe not you since your apparent riding skills compare to Rossi and your steed is so fast you need 705s because as we all know,,,,, 705s may well have more traction than Pilot Powers ever thought about applying to tarmac.

Like I said, if anyone wants to see how slow I am on the DL with a CT on the rear and a Shitko 705 on the front,,,, I'm in N.E. Ga. and I'm more than willing to plan a loop that will show case several different riding conditions ranging from super tight tarmac, to fast tarmac to packed dirt forestry roads to rutted, rocky, rarely maintained forestry roads.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:28 PM   #112
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Hmmmm, so why do you suppose it is that motorcycle tire manufacturers, and motorcycle manufacturers don't design, endorse, or use car type tires for bikes if the car tires perform just as well if not better (according to many darksiders)?
  • Are the developers/engineers daft and ignore that way things work in the real world?
or
  • Is there a concerted effort to design (tire companies) and recommend (tire companies, motorcycle manufacturers) tires that cost more and wear worse to get more $ out of motorcyclists, when car type tires perform just as well if not better?
or
  • Can the human brain contrive explanations and evidence to justify desired results?
or

...
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:44 PM   #113
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Darksiders = Dumbsiders.

They are just too ashamed to admit their folly.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:16 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotten View Post


I thought this was a decent video... not saying I'd run a car tire on my sport tourer but a Vstrom heading to Alaska .... maybe
Min 1:49 of this video shows better then anything else, just how silly the "darkside" is.

Go ahead and do it if you think it's better, but remember if it really was better, don't you think the motorcycle companies and the tire companies might as well.

Or is it a conspiracy that they both are cahoots with to keep the cost of riding inflated.

Talk to any tire guy, motorcycle or automobile. About how this whole thing works, and find out what they say.

Or trust a bunch of guys like to one in this video who while showing you that the contact patch while it might be "bigger"
it's not working in the same way as the tire was designed for it work. All the while telling you it is.

Yea I'm one of the peanut gallery, but I've ridden both and unless I was on or in something that kept the car tires mostly flat against the ground, I wouldn't ride with car tires on my motorcycle.
But then I like to lean.
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:01 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by LexLeroy View Post
Jud -

Do you mount & balance your own car tires or do you have a shop do the work? I'm doing my own motorcycle tires now with this:

The Moose Racing stand, once secured to the garage floor, seems to work OK even with a friend's low-profile FJR1300 rear tires (180/55R17). A compressor and lots of Ru-Glyde gets the beads seated pretty quickly and easily in most cases.

The front tires, surprisingly, are a bigger challenge on all of the bikes that I've done, maybe because of the narrower drop wells in the front wheels. What do you think - stout enough for a 50-series car tire?

On the subject of cost vs. performance trade-offs, that question probably won't get answered to everyones' satisfaction until someone with something like Keith Code's outrigger-equipped Lean/Slide bike does a head-to-head comparison of the two types of tires on the same bike w/ the same rider on the same track under similar weather conditions. It would be an interesting comparison, from the perspective of cornering traction as well as from that of straight-line braking. Maybe one of our members with connections in the industry can make it happen?
The CT I happened to choose purely based on local availability had rather pronounced, molded in rim protectors that made mounting a challenge on the narrow wheel. I have worked as a tire tech both on bikes and on cars and I mount and balance my own at home so I know my way around a tire changer. Saying that, the Falken CT was the hardest tire to mount I have ever experienced and that means alot to people that have mounted up a 150/17 Big Block!

My first attempt at home with spoons ended rather quickly in failure. I then took it to a local bike shop where I have worked part time and have a good relationship with so they let me mount my own tires for free. Tried it on their pneumatic machine that I am very proficient with and was once again met with failure,,,,, even with another tire tech trying to help with a iron. I felt bad taking up their time and to be honest, I was getting heckled fairly heavily by the mechanics and the tire tech so once again, I tooked tail and took a whoopin. Basically, the pneumatic machine would stall out as we couldn't force the opposite bead into the valley of the rim.

I couldn't return the tire so it really bugged me to spend 100$ on something and have the experiment fail so miserably so after a couple days of looking at it I once again set about trying to mount it. I ended up using a ratchet strap on one side {the side with both beads on in the rim} to force the beads into the valley of the rim thereby allowing me to slip the opposite remaining bead on. Once I tried that trick, it was child's play. Seriously, I used dirt bike sized spoons as it was that easy. I wished I had snapped a pic of the way I used the ratchet strap as a picture is worth a thousand words. Once you know that trick, it's easy peasy. Don't know the trick and it damned near impossible and let me tell you, the idiots that pontificate on and on about somehow the beads catastrophically flying off the rim are full of hooey by gosh. I know for a fact that no matter what, the beads ain't gonna be accidentally popping of the rim beads!!!!

In any event, if you have the opportunity to look over the tires, pick one that doesn't have such a pronounced rim protector.
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:22 AM   #116
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I wonder why they would show the motorcycle tire at a different angle the car tire...

Do they make run-flat motorcycle tires?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Just out of curiosity.. isn´t this what happens, when you are cornering:

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Old 05-03-2012, 02:22 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Just out of curiosity.. isn´t this what happens, when you are cornering:



The red marks the contact patch, which common sense would say will be considerably smaller, when you use a type of tyre, that does not have a round profile. Both tyres will flex a little under weight, but their respective contact patch sizes should still have about the same difference in area, which in turn has a lot to do with grip.

Another thing to consider is, are car tyres actually meant to be ridden on their ´shoulder´ like that? Especially if you did a lot of mountain roads, could it not generate a lot of heat into that one narrow area on the tyre surface?

Do insurance companies allow you to use car tyres on motorcycles (..over in Europe, there are some countries, where they don´t even allow to use mc-tyres, unless those specific tyres are tested for that particular bike model)?

I´m not claiming anything, just wondering about a few things. And I do believe car tyres could work on straight highway-riding.
The above diagram doesn't accurately depict the real world. It might well be accurate if you ran the CT at the full pressure and when I did, I admit I didn't like it. Now, if that had been as good as it ever got, I couldn't have lived with it. I'm running between 20-25psi and I can tell you right now that I never get the sidewall scuffed and with the lean angles I can reach with my DL that is raised nearly 2 inches, that indicates the CT deforms when heeled over and I know that it presents a wider contact patch that the above diagram would indicate. How much wider, heck,,,, I'll be the 1st to admit I haven't a clue as I don't know everything like many on here profess to do. I can tell you this and this is the honest truth, the CT has equal or better traction than the tires I normally run which includes the Kenda Big Block , Shinko 705s and Tourances. And yes, that's more traction both in a straight line and while cornering. Even when run in the full pressure range I never scuffed the sidewall which indicates to me that the above is in fact hogwash dreamed up by someone that has no experience in it and is just grasping at straws to find an anchor for their argument.

The "what if" insurance company BS has already been addressed earlier in the thread. Long story short, those of use that decided to try the CT don't give a rat's ass and thank god, budda, alah or whomever that at least we can at least be free enough from government nannying that we can try it and if we like it, run it.

But please notice this, as soon as you posted that BS diagram the peanut gallery took the BS and ran with it without so much as looking at it with a modicom of common sense. So glad they aren't the type to come to knee jerk conclusions!!!
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:04 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by azgsa View Post
Hmmmm, so why do you suppose it is that motorcycle tire manufacturers, and motorcycle manufacturers don't design, endorse, or use car type tires for bikes if the car tires perform just as well if not better (according to many darksiders)?

Please take all my posts and points into consideration. I have listed both pros and cons to the CT. I have stated that the CT I happen to be running has roughly equal traction on road as the other tires I've run {Tourances, 705s and Big Blocks}. I specifically pointed out that many motorcycle tires do in fact have more traction and I pointedly stated I wouldn't run a CT on a Gixxer or something that I used for playing hard in the twisties. In other words, I wouldn't snatch the Pilot Powers off say,,, my R1 to run a CT.

I also stated that the CT doesn't have the sharp feel and handles worse than those others tires. But please understand, ultimate traction and handling are two very different but interrelated aspects. You can have one tire that actually has more traction than another yet isn't as sharp feeling and handles worse. Same with the other way around. The CT might have roughly the same or even better traction but it just doesn't feel as good. That simple.
  • Are the developers/engineers daft and ignore that way things work in the real world?
No, they design their tires based on many things, wear being only one aspect. Have you stepped into the Shinko 705 thread? If not, let me tell you,,,, there are some people that say the exact same thing that the peanut gallery is pontificating upon in here. I have seen people decide not to run 705s because they have "a lumpy" feel at low speeds or they roar at high speeds. The engineers have to design tires based partially upon people's conceptions like that!
or
  • Is there a concerted effort to design (tire companies) and recommend (tire companies, motorcycle manufacturers) tires that cost more and wear worse to get more $ out of motorcyclists, when car type tires perform just as well if not better?
Nope, they just consider the extra weight as a negative well,,,, because it it. The extra rotating mass hurts acceleration and it negatively effects handling. Take for instance Kenda Big Blocks. The rubber compound the "engineers who know best" choose a very soft compound. I'm betting they choose such a soft compound to offset the lose of contact patch the very open knobby pattern dictates. Kenda engineers decided to gain back some gripe they lost with the knobby design by making the compound very soft. End result is a tire that is lucky to last 3K miles on many bikes and many riding styles. On the other hand, the ME880s usually last a long time but their hard ass compound gives shit for traction on road and the lack of void for want of more surface area results in terrible off road traction. Once again, just like with teh CT,,,,, their are compromises with each and every choice. One chooses to lose some acceleration, a smidge of fuel economy and handling when running a CT. In return you get the same or even more traction on road as many motorcycle tire options {and yes, less than some options}, the same or better off-road traction as some bike tires {and once again, possibly worse} and for sure,,,,,,,, vastly better tire life and their is no debating that point. Once again, it's all about compromise. If you are running Pilots Powers on your Gixxer, the CT isn't for you. By that same token, if you are always running TKCs on your KTM Adventure, teh CT may well not be for you. But if you are somewhere between those extremes,,,, the CT may well be a damned good compromise and you will never know unless you try it for yourself.
or
  • Can the human brain contrive explanations and evidence to justify desired results?
or...
Yep, sure can and that phenomenon can occur on both sides of the argument. Don't think for a minute it can't. Look at both side's arguments and honestly acknowledge which has presented the most real world empirical evidence. I nor others are saying that the CT is the end all in tires. We are not saying the CT is the answer for everyone and we are not saying the running a CT isn't without some compromise. We are just saying that as long as it's been done, it has proven to be safe despite the peanut gallery stating the sky will certainly fall. We are saying that the traction is comparable to many bike tires and I think this has been at least been substantially vindicated by overwhelming agreement form those that have tried it,,,,, even those that ultimately didn't care for the CT. Yep, you are dead to nut correct, some can justify and contrive all day long to get their desired results!

Finally, look at where all the personal attacks and ridicule seems to be coming from. When your arguments can't be substantiated through logic and real world experience,,,,,, just attack people's intelligence and ridicule them. Worked great for a long time for the flat earth society and the witch trials too.

I'm not asking you to believe me just because I say that CT are god's gift to bikers. I'm simply sharing my experience with running a CT and I'm being dead serious and dead honest. I am not coloring my opinions and I would be the first to yell at the top of my lungs if the CT just palin out sucked. Like I said, it has it's pros and it;'s cons just like any other tire choice.


..
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:18 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by squish View Post
Min 1:49 of this video shows better then anything else, just how silly the "darkside" is.

Go ahead and do it if you think it's better, but remember if it really was better, don't you think the motorcycle companies and the tire companies might as well.

Or is it a conspiracy that they both are cahoots with to keep the cost of riding inflated.

Talk to any tire guy, motorcycle or automobile. About how this whole thing works, and find out what they say.

Or trust a bunch of guys like to one in this video who while showing you that the contact patch while it might be "bigger"
it's not working in the same way as the tire was designed for it work. All the while telling you it is.

Yea I'm one of the peanut gallery, but I've ridden both and unless I was on or in something that kept the car tires mostly flat against the ground, I wouldn't ride with car tires on my motorcycle.
But then I like to lean.
Actually, that is a pretty good video that vividly shows exactly what I was talking about. Basically the CT deflects/deforms and the contact patch is in fact, much larger than that BS diagram tried to show. It also proves exactly what I was stating about how the CT never gets on the shoulder despite what it might appear by simply looking at it. As for your comment about how silly the argument is as evidenced at 1:49,,,,, what are your referring to? If you are bugged about all the tread that isn't contacting your are a perfect example of what someone referred to earlier,,,, basically, contriving evidence to justify your position. If you open your eyes {rather your mind} you will see than even though there is alot of tread that's not contacting the tarmac, there is actually alot of tread that is. You might not know that because there wasn't a video of a regular tire but teh guy is right, that is a goodly sized contact patch. And like I keep saying,,,,, there is no way on god's green earth that my CT doesn't have more rubber on the road and more traction than at the very least,,,, my Big Block. If you will agree with that statement, then at least admit that teh CT does in fact have more traction than "some" types of motorcycle tires that "some" riders choose. If you admit that then please explain why you and the rest of the peanut gallery are not dog piling people that choose to run tires like the Big Block or TKCs {or even ME880 for that matter but for a different reason} when we all know for a fact that there are other tires that would give better traction on road??????????

That's the asinine and hypocritical part I can't wrap my head around??????????

Oh yea,,, and I like to lean too but ummmmmm,,,,,,,, the DL650 ain't the best tool fer leaning ole boy and I and others have specifically stated that putting a CT on your Gixxer and heading to the mountains wouldn't be the wisest choice. The CT is a compromise just like any other tire choice and just like you prolly wouldn't run Pilot Powers on your Hardly Abelson or your KTM Adventure, you might not want to lever a CT on either. It really isn't as complicated as some make it out to be. Don't want to run em, don't,,,,,, I'm not telling you are an idiot for not. Please reciprocate that respect is all I and others ask.
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:38 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Basically the CT deflects/deforms and the contact patch is in fact, much larger than that BS diagram tried to show. It also proves exactly what I was stating about how the CT never gets on the shoulder despite what it might appear by simply looking at it.
That ´BS diagram´ was just quickly drawn by myself to present the idea, and I asked it as a question: does this happen.

By lowering pressures, surely you can enlarge the contact patch on any tyre, but will this be a wise thing to do for road-riding? At least on motorcycle tyres it´s a fact, that under-inflated tyres generate much more heat, and wear will be more rapid, on higher speeds that could even lead to the tyre going to pieces. Depending on how much the pressure is dropped, wheel slipping under acceleration is also a possibility. For off-road it is common to drop the pressure, but you´re supposed to put them back up, when you get back on tarmac.

And the thing about the sidewalls: are you saying, that the car tyre has to ´bend´ so much, that the tread pattern will always contact the ground, no matter what the bank angle is? Sounds like you´ll need a very very flexible tyre, with little pressure inside, to achieve this.

Like I said, I do believe it´ll work for riding in a straight line. But being actually better to ride on curves than a Tourance, that one I don´t buy. And also you might have trouble with your insurance, if you crash, but I´m 100% fine with people taking risks, as long as they know about them beforehand.
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