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Old 05-03-2012, 04:50 AM   #121
kitesurfer
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Originally Posted by Jud View Post
.

Like I said, if anyone wants to see how slow I am on the DL with a CT on the rear and a Shitko 705 on the front,,,, I'm in N.E. Ga. and I'm more than willing to plan a loop that will show case several different riding conditions ranging from super tight tarmac, to fast tarmac to packed dirt forestry roads to rutted, rocky, rarely maintained forestry roads.
i'll take you up on it! i'll be riding up through north ga next thursday (may 10) in route to robbinsville nc. there, i am meeting appx 30 goldwings, all darkside. my new wheel and new ct, michelin alpin, are still in the garage waitiing to wear out the tire that came on the bike. my next or 2nd bike, will be a storm for sure and the goldwing will not do mexico, or so i've beendf advised. but i will put over 4,000 miles on my wing in one trip i have planned for july. that will be two up pulling a trailer. when i buy the wee strom, i will buy a one wheel trailer for my trip to alaska and my trip to mexico.

this adventure forum needs a DARKSIDE forum for those who ride ct's to most brands, sizes, air pressures, longevity and such. the wings have a darkside forum and it has been useful in that regard. the mich alpin RUN FLAT is the tire of choice for goldwings right now, running 32psi.

there is a guy in Alaska who rides with a car tire on the back and a knobby on the front of his GOLDWING. he also has a stable of bmw's, stroms too.

to the poster with the diagram of riding on edge, draw a new picture. it don't work like that. thee are many utube vids of car tires with go pro mounted at the wheel. see for yourself.

insurannce is not an issue either according to agents on the goldwing forum. you can always call your own insurance company and ask them how they would handle it.

thanks for this threade guys!
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:53 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
That īBS diagramī was just quickly drawn by myself to present the idea, and I asked it as a question: does this happen.

By lowering pressures, surely you can enlarge the contact patch on any tyre, but will this be a wise thing to do for road-riding? At least on motorcycle tyres itīs a fact, that under-inflated tyres generate much more heat, and wear will be more rapid, on higher speeds that could even lead to the tyre going to pieces. Depending on how much the pressure is dropped, wheel slipping under acceleration is also a possibility. For off-road it is common to drop the pressure, but youīre supposed to put them back up, when you get back on tarmac.

And the thing about the sidewalls: are you saying, that the car tyre has to ībendī so much, that the tread pattern will always contact the ground, no matter what the bank angle is? Sounds like youīll need a very very flexible tyre, with little pressure inside, to achieve this.

Like I said, I do believe itīll work for riding in a straight line. But being actually better to ride on curves than a Tourance, that one I donīt buy. And also you might have trouble with your insurance, if you crash, but Iīm 100% fine with people taking risks, as long as they know about them beforehand.
Sorry if it seemed as if I were attacking you. Please try to put yourself in our shoes and understand that when you are getting dogpiled, every dog seems as if it's liable to bite. I apologise about coming off pissy.

Anywho and forward-
The car tire's pressure recommendation is speced as full load. The load presented by me and my bike are no where near it's fully loaded rating. Also, tires that have a larger volume of air inside them need less air pressure for a given load. I discovered this many years ago when I got into 4wheeling for a time. Put a set of 40X15X15 inch tires on a 5Klb vehicle and you need alot less air pressure than if you were running something like 30X10X15. If you run the same pressure in the 40 inch as you would in the 30 inch tire, you will end up with a over inflated tire that will wear in the middle due to being over inflated. Run the same pressure in the 30 inch tire as you would in the 40 inch and you will wear the outer edges of teh tire out as you will not have the needed pressure for a given load.

You are right, higher pressures in a bike tire generally give less wear because the lower pressure allows for more squirm which results in more wear. With the CT the lower pressure widens the contact patch especially when cornering and the squirm will heat up the tire and just like with bike tires, you get added traction. With bike tires there is a fine line between too little air pressure which usually results in better traction {to a point} but with a corresponding higher wear rate. I think that since the CT is built substantially heavier and tougher, that line is much wider. Yes, I know that running 20-25psi will result in lower wear but like I said, I have over 6K miles and it's just starting to show some wear on the edges. If I get,,,,, oh, let's say 15K miles at 25psi vs 25K miles at 35psi,,,,, I think I'll choose the lower psi and lower mileage.

I previously stated that when I 1st mounted the CT I started at the tire's highest recommended PSI because I was worried about that terrible "sudden and catastrophic" bead popping off bullshit the peanut galley love to bandy about. In this case the max was something like 45-48psi if I remember right. I rode it to the end of my 1/4 long dirt road easement and absolutely hated it. Like I said, if that was as good as it got, I would have taken it off but I tried playing with the air pressure. I lowering it in 10psi increments and each time it got better. When I got to 10 psi I discover the tire was slipping on the wheel as I had marked the tire and wheel just for that purpose. I air back up to around 20-25psi and have run it there ever since excepting a recent two up and load down week long trip. During that trip the combined rider/passenger weight was up around 400lbs and the gear, say another 100lbs so around 500 total. Yes, that extra 300-350lbs required a bit more air in the tires, the rear especially and I ran the rear up to around 35psi. That trip had cruise speeds in the 85-90mph range in some fairly high temps at some fairly high loading. Didn't even faze that CT one bit.

Quote:
And the thing about the sidewalls: are you saying, that the car tyre has to ībendī so much, that the tread pattern will always contact the ground, no matter what the bank angle is? Sounds like youīll need a very very flexible tyre, with little pressure inside, to achieve this.
Given my bike's lean angle constraints {which are better than stock as I've raised the bike, have stiffer spring and much, much better damping than OEM},,,, yea, the CT deforms so that the actual side wall never hits the tarmac. That is alot of the reason the handling isn't as good and it's not as sharp feeling. Keep in mid that you have to be hauling the mail at a pretty quick pace to notice this and honestly that pace is faster than most DL riders run. I'm not saying that you will not notice this as I have no idea how fast you ride but I can tell you this, I'm consistently in the running a faster pace than the majority of Adv type bike riders. Hell, I still like to play with the sport bikes every know and then and man, it's does make me grin especially when it was one of those peanut gallery types that I torment or eve show that terrible handling and unsafe CT to while hauling the mail up and down the mountain. I then hit a dirt road while the sporty bike tire shod guys tuck their manhood between their legs and yabber on about not wanting to ruin their bike by runing it in the dirt. Hell,,,,,, my FJR has seen more dirt road mileage than most of the Vstroms and BMW GSs I meet!

I just can't understand why people can't accept that for many bikes and many riders, you don't need huge amounts of cornering traction. Hell,,,,,, exactly how far can you even lean something like a Wing, a Valkyrie or most cruisers before you start throwing sparks? Do some of you really think that people are railing the mountains and draggin knees on their DL650s while loaded down with 100lbs of camping gear and shit in the panniers and top boxes?? Does the peanut gallery actually think people are running pilot powers on these type bikes because as soon as any discussion comes up, that exactly where the argument goes???

As for this-
Quote:
Like I said, I do believe itīll work for riding in a straight line. But being actually better to ride on curves than a Tourance, that one I donīt buy.
Once again,,,, I really wish people would actually read and comprehend what I post. I specifically said that the CT had roughly the same if not more traction as the 705s/Tourances/Big Blocks in a straight line and in the corners. I also specifically stated that the CT didn't feel as good doing it and didn't handle as well. Once again,,,, traction and handling are two different things. Once again, the weak link in my corning speed right now is my confidence in that 705 up front, not the CT in the rear. I will state again for the record, I would not go substantially faster on a track if I replaced the CT with a matching 705 or for that matter, a Tourance on the rear as my front 705 is what's hold my cornering speed down,,, not the rear CT. Now, if I stuck a Pilot Power on the front, that might well change but I don't nor do I have any desire what so ever to run sport bike tires on what is basically the SUV of motorcycles.

As for my insurance company,,,, they would have to prove that the car tire caused the wreck to even begin to deny a claim and honestly,,,, that bullshit doesn't worry me a bit. If it worries you or anyone else,,,, don't run em. Not rocket science and for teh umptenth time, I'm not telling you that you need to run them or that your should even try them. I just get somewhat tired of having people that have not a bit of experience with this telling me a line of bullshit based on assumption and well,,,,,, just plain pull it out their ass bullshit. Again, the insurance aspect has already been beat to death,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we don't friggen care OK>
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:58 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by kitesurfer View Post
i'll take you up on it! i'll be riding up through north ga next thursday (may 10) in route to robbinsville nc. there, i am meeting appx 30 goldwings, all darkside. my new wheel and new ct, michelin alpin, are still in the garage waitiing to wear out the tire that came on the bike. my next or 2nd bike, will be a storm for sure and the goldwing will not do mexico, or so i've beendf advised. but i will put over 4,000 miles on my wing in one trip i have planned for july. that will be two up pulling a trailer. when i buy the wee strom, i will buy a one wheel trailer for my trip to alaska and my trip to mexico.

this adventure forum needs a DARKSIDE forum for those who ride ct's to most brands, sizes, air pressures, longevity and such. the wings have a darkside forum and it has been useful in that regard. the mich alpin RUN FLAT is the tire of choice for goldwings right now, running 32psi.

there is a guy in Alaska who rides with a car tire on the back and a knobby on the front of his GOLDWING. he also has a stable of bmw's, stroms too.

to the poster with the diagram of riding on edge, draw a new picture. it don't work like that. thee are many utube vids of car tires with go pro mounted at the wheel. see for yourself.

insurannce is not an issue either according to agents on the goldwing forum. you can always call your own insurance company and ask them how they would handle it.

thanks for this threade guys!
PM me,,,,, I'll do my best to meet up with you. I know that are pretty well as I have been running those roads for quite awhile. Please note too that we have our own Hwy129 and our own Skyway type ride {Blood Mountain and Richard Russel} and in my humble opinion, it's actually more fun than the Dragon and the Cherry Cola!
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:09 AM   #124
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I'm not sure I'll ever ride my Vstrom on the dark side or not but it works awesome on a Valkyrie a d goldwing. Both those. Bikes perform better on the dark side period end of argument. As to safety issues I have put 20,000 miles on the dark side and still here and rode extremely aggressive for the bike I was riding.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:30 AM   #125
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hey Jud, thanks for the offer to meet up with me. unfortunately, i have no idea which route i'll take or time of day. but i'm very familiar with the 'cooler run' richard russell, 60, warwoman. wolf pen gap is my favorite. though i/m sure riding a goldwing up there will be much different than my Z1000.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:57 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Jud View Post
My first attempt at home with spoons ended rather quickly in failure. I then took it to a local bike shop where I have worked part time and have a good relationship with so they let me mount my own tires for free. Tried it on their pneumatic machine that I am very proficient with and was once again met with failure,,,,, even with another tire tech trying to help with a iron. I felt bad taking up their time and to be honest, I was getting heckled fairly heavily by the mechanics and the tire tech so once again, I tooked tail and took a whoopin. Basically, the pneumatic machine would stall out as we couldn't force the opposite bead into the valley of the rim.

In any event, if you have the opportunity to look over the tires, pick one that doesn't have such a pronounced rim protector.
The General Altimax tires in 205/50R17 seem to be pretty popular w/ Strom darksiders - any known issues like super-tight beads, ultra-stiff sidewalls or awkward rim protectors? Getting the bead opposite the tire tool into the drop well and keeping the lubricated bead from sliding back over the rim as the mounting tool advances are often difficult enough w/ a M/C tire, particularly a wide one w/ short sidewalls like the FJR tires - so do the Generals put up much of a fight or take excessive inflation pressure to come up on the rim? My compressor will easily go to 120 psi but I start to crap my pants if a tire won't pop all of the way up by the time that I reach 50 psi.

LexLeroy screwed with this post 05-03-2012 at 06:09 AM
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:59 AM   #127
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Sounds like someone needs to get
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:08 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Just out of curiosity.. isnīt this what happens, when you are cornering:



The red marks the contact patch, which common sense would say will be considerably smaller, when you use a type of tyre, that does not have a round profile. Both tyres will flex a little under weight, but their respective contact patch sizes should still have about the same difference in area, which in turn has a lot to do with grip.

Another thing to consider is, are car tyres actually meant to be ridden on their īshoulderī like that? Especially if you did a lot of mountain roads, could it not generate a lot of heat into that one narrow area on the tyre surface?

Do insurance companies allow you to use car tyres on motorcycles (..over in Europe, there are some countries, where they donīt even allow to use mc-tyres, unless those specific tyres are tested for that particular bike model)?

Iīm not claiming anything, just wondering about a few things. And I do believe car tyres could work on straight highway-riding.

False!

Almost blatantly so, at that.

1 - The angle of the motorcycle tire is not from a "head-on" perspective, thereby increasing the apparant area of contact with the ground while the car tire is shown in a "head-on" perspective.

2 - As has been stated about a bazillion times already in this thread, the vast majority of people running this particular setup do not inflate their tires to the point that there is no rounding of the tire's contact patch.
I have not bothered to correct your crude misrepresentation of the motorcycle tire's contact patch. I have instead only included the proper representation of the car tire's contact patch when run according to those who've posted their real-world experience doing such.



It shows your estimations of contact patch now favors the car tire, even when compared to your mis-representation of a MC tire.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:08 PM   #129
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1 - The angle of the motorcycle tire is not from a "head-on" perspective, thereby increasing the apparant area of contact with the ground while the car tire is shown in a "head-on" perspective.

2 - As has been stated about a bazillion times already in this thread, the vast majority of people running this particular setup do not inflate their tires to the point that there is no rounding of the tire's contact patch.
I have not bothered to correct your crude misrepresentation of the motorcycle tire's contact patch. I have instead only included the proper representation of the car tire's contact patch when run according to those who've posted their real-world experience doing such.
I searched for head-on photos of both MC & car tyres, but for MC they didnīt show up. Wasnīt meant to give a false representation, sorry if it offended you.

By lowering pressures you can naturally increase the contact patch size, but as was discussed before, this might have other downsides to it, so itīs something to be careful about. Under-inflated tyre and sustained high speeds is especially a potentially bad combo.

And maybe the representation should have been an animation (which I am personally unable to do): how does the contact patch area/size change on the car tyre, when the bike is leaned from fully upright to, say, 35 degrees to the left, then back up again, and then 35 degrees to the right? Somehow I find it hard to believe, that it will stay very constant, or confidence-inspiring from the riderīs point of view. No matter how much you fiddle with the pressures and everything, you are putting the tyre on its side and back. And what about doing the same thing, with less lean angle, but on wet surface? Are those car tyres even designed to displace water on any other position than how theyīre normally run on 4-wheeled vehicles? Aquaplaning on a motorcycle is not fun, and if the bike is not fully upright, when it occurs, youīre almost guaranteed to go down.

But Iīm not saying that it must be totally unrideable, and it seems several people do have lots of experience with them. And Iīve been riding in the US, surely there are lots of straight roads, where those could be just fine. So maybe youīll just need to be a bit more careful on the curvy bits, or if it rains.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:39 AM   #130
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Seven pages and still no answer to the original question. A couple people gave their guesses at CT size. One person entered a report on his experience with CTs on a DL1000 and didn't give a tire size.

Can someone who has run the darkside on a strom give this poor guy and answer and not just an opinion?
hey..thanks for lookin out for me.. it has been an interesting read hus far.. as an update I mounted up a dunlop somethin or another.. cant remember which model right now.. it had a wear factor compound of 235 I believe.. I have approx. 800 miles on it now, only because the weather here in idaho has SUCKED the past few weeks.. is it different?? yes.. do I like it?? welllll..yes I do.. it does take a bit more countersteering in he twisties but I'm down with that.. I would say the biggest improvement is in the crosswinds.. feels MUCH more stable. the first thing I noticed right outa the chute was it did take a little more pressure on the rear brake pedal to slow down or stop.. I assume rhat has to do with the rotating mass being greater.. all in all if someone held a gun to my head and said I had to decide now and forever if its gonna be a mc. tire or a car tire.. I would have to go with he ct.. thanks for the entertainment fellars.. y'all ride safe out there..
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:17 AM   #131
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Darksiders = Dumbsiders.

They are just too ashamed to admit their folly.
Hey, what do you think of Centramatics?
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:44 PM   #132
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Hey, what do you think of Centramatics?
No one's takin' the bait....

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Old 05-04-2012, 07:47 PM   #133
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No one's takin' the bait....



oh well, i was never good at fishing.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:17 PM   #134
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hey..thanks for lookin out for me.. it has been an interesting read hus far.. as an update I mounted up a dunlop somethin or another.. cant remember which model right now.. it had a wear factor compound of 235 I believe.. I have approx. 800 miles on it now, only because the weather here in idaho has SUCKED the past few weeks.. is it different?? yes.. do I like it?? welllll..yes I do.. it does take a bit more countersteering in he twisties but I'm down with that.. I would say the biggest improvement is in the crosswinds.. feels MUCH more stable. the first thing I noticed right outa the chute was it did take a little more pressure on the rear brake pedal to slow down or stop.. I assume rhat has to do with the rotating mass being greater.. all in all if someone held a gun to my head and said I had to decide now and forever if its gonna be a mc. tire or a car tire.. I would have to go with he ct.. thanks for the entertainment fellars.. y'all ride safe out there..
Some of that having to apply more brake pressure could certainly be attributed to the higher rotating mass but I honestly think,,,, ya juss have more traction out back now.

I use brake brakes alot more now with the additional traction and I use the back brakes all the time, in all sorts of situations on and off, staright line and even in curves. Same with the throttle. I can gaurantee there is more traction than many of the tires I've run on the back. Just don't feel too crispy and keen whilst doing it.

And while I might choose the CT for my commuting and on long trips,,,,, I would hate to give up 705s and or knobbies when in the dirt on the DL. On the FJR,,,,,,,, I'm really on the fence on that one because I know use it as my play bike now that I no longer have a sportbike. Dunno if I want to deal with the draw backs on that but heck,,,, I haven't tried it on the FJR so to be honest I really should at least try one back there. Maybe something like a Michislip Pilot would would sneak under the peanut galley's dumbsider smugdar-


Should have even more traction considering it's rated at something like 200 as compared to the,,,, umm,,,,,,,, dunno, maybe 400 the Falken on the DL has.

For the next adv darksider experimentation, I do think I'll take the advice of many and with-

I suppose that General Artic thingie would be the one I really need fer the DL. Least it would have even more off road grip and considering I now have plenty of on road grip to spare now that I've found the "Darkside"!!!!!!!!!


Might slide right on the FJR's replacement, either a Tenere or the Explorer 1200.

Oh the huumaaaaanityyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yike s
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:37 AM   #135
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Howdy folks,,,,, a long winded, overly wordy but very detailed update from the wild side {ummmmm, make that, the darkside}-


Nearing 10K miles on the CT mounted on my DL650. It is starting to show some wear,,,,,, maybe another couple thousand miles in it, possibly 5K if I baby it. I know that doesn't sound like an awfull lot but I have honestly been very hard on this tire, harder than any tire I've run yet I think. I've run the pressure in the 20-25psi range as a good compromise between off and on road performance. I've run it as low as 15psi or so off road and and high as around 35 when two up. A Tourance or 705 woulda given up at around 4K, probably 3.5K or less considering how hard I've beat on this tire. Matter of fact I mounted a new chain at the same time and it gave up around 9K miles.

I have no doubt a CT would easily last 20K if ridden with a modicum of restraint. The longest I've nursed out of a 705 has been around 9K miles at that was babying it big time during a long trip. Most of my 705s and Tourances have gone between 4 and 6K miles when ridden "normally" around the house in a combo of commuting, playing in the twisties and the dirt roads.

I'm quite used to the handing the CT now and I don't mind pushing the bike fairly hard in the curves. Basically, I'm more worried about the front end traction of the 705 being my "fuse" as the CT seems to have more traction than my 705s {or the Tourances} on tarmac {straight up and yes, even heeled over in a curve and hard on the gas} and on most dirt roads. I even think the CT has more traction than my old Kenda Big Block on most dirt roads,,,,,, hard packed gravel anyway.

I still dislike the CT when running on really rough, unmaintained roads though. Really rocky and rutted roads is honestly the one condition other than mud where I wished I had another tire out back. Yes, the CT is way heavy and that extra weight does slighly hurt acceleration. The added unsprung weight does slightly hurt handling when running at a 90% or better pace but honestly, how often are you running that hard on a Strom,,,,,,, on the street? Even then, it only really makes itself known during cornering on really rough stuff like washboard dirt roads or big bumps in the middle of corners. The only real handling "quirk" is the tires tendency to cause the rear of the bike to wag a bit when rough with the throttle or steering inputs when heeled over and running hard. You will never notice it if you ride like most folks do. If you are a really hard charger,,,,,, you will notice it but you get used to it like one gets used to how a knobby squirms when ridden hard on tarmac. Just a odd trait, nothing to bug about once you get used to it.

All tire choices on these type bikes are a compromise. A Pilot Power when stick great in the corners and will return nice crisp feel but it will be done in 3K miles or even less if you really play hard. If taken off road it had better be hard packed dirt roads and even then they suck.

On the other end of the compromise is something like a TKC or a Big Block. They work amazingly well on the tarmac and have plenty of traction but their feel at the outer edges of the envelope leave alot to be desired. Oh,,,,, and they are like butter in a hot pan when it comes to tire life.

Then you have compromise tires like the Tourance, Anake and the 705s. All work OK on the tarmac and give better traction on dirt roads and such than say that Pilot Power but they ain't knobbies. Tire life is mediocre in my opinion,,,,, basically double a knobby.

I suppose one could run a full on touring tire like the ME880 or the new Commander but I figure they suck at cornering both on and off the tarmac.

The CT I have on my DL gives more traction on and off road than a compromise tire like the 705 or a touring tire like the ME880 and gives better life, much better. Like 1.5-2 times the life. Considering I commute 300 miles a week, I need/want a tire with long life. The CT delivers

When not commuting I play in the mountains pretty regularly and I can play pretty hard at times so I need pretty good traction on road. The CT delivers.

When in the mountains playing, I often hit alot of forestry roads and some are rarely maintained. Of all the things I do with the bike, this is the area where the CT is at it's weakest abut even here, excepting rocks, ruts and mud,,,,,, it does pretty well here too. Better than all but a knobby.

Yep,,,,,, I'm liking this CT experiment pretty dern good. Can ya tell!





BTW,,,,, the atmospere hasn't caught fire, no nuns have died, not a single kitten maimed. The sky didn't fall. No catastrophic failure. No beads flying off the rim. The belts didn't seperate. Nada bad thing one happened, zero,,,, zilch. Nothing bad at all happened. 'mAGINE DAT.
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