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Old 04-08-2012, 01:35 PM   #16
ragtoplvr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz62 View Post
What do you mean when you say the "bore" and how would it be damaged by this stud missing?
The area inside the throttle body where the throttle plate is located. The magic screw makes sure the brass throttle plate does not hit the aluminum bore, when the plug fell out that is what started happening.

Brass can wear the aluminum, make balance difficult. You can look.

Best is to make a replacement now and stop any further damage. Set both clean BBS to 2.5 turns, and see if you can set the magic screw to balance things pretty close.

Rod
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:35 PM   #17
SpaceManSpiff
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Jazz,

here is a pic of the RH throttle stop on my 2001 R1100S (should be the same TB as your GS).
[IMG][/IMG]

My guess is that is a threaded 2 piece affair...but it doesn't seem to be listed separately on the parts microfiche.
http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fic...9&rnd=04052012
not on the Throttle Housing Assy fiche or the one with the Bowden box and associated cables anyway.

It is a bit of a bummer that the missing throttle stop is on the left (TPS) side...you will probably need to do a zero-zero to get back to a good base setting. That the throttle stop is missing and that the BBAS are at wildly different setting is telling me that the something funny is going on....

On the topic of BBAS O-rings (I just went through a quest to to find these for this on my R1100S)--
Like my bike, your GS bike uses the M9x0.75 BAS (not all oilheads use a BAS this size).
The o-rings are a metric size 1.5mm (cross-section) x 7.5mm (I.D.)

The o-rings are not available separately from BMW. The BAS is available from BMW ($6+) and may come with the BAS...but curiously are not shown on the microfiche.

Unlike others, I found that the nearest standard sized o-ring available at hardware and autopart stores (5/16" (7.65mm) I.D. with a 1/16" (1.78mm) C.S. did not fit to my satisfaction. Either the C.S. is too big or the durometer of the rubber is too hard...but it wanted to jam with too many turns out.

Bing (who makes the throttle body) sells the o-rings for about $2.50 ea.
http://www.bingcarburetor.com/pdf/throttlebodykits.pdf

amazon has a pack of 25 viton o-rings for $6.32
http://www.amazon.com/M1-5x7-5-Viton.../dp/B005RUPENG

HTH
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Old 04-08-2012, 05:42 PM   #18
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That stop is a push-in button with a serrated shaft, hence the markings in the hole.

Any suitable bolt/nut, or rivet will do as a replacement.
Whatever you put in there, make sure the surface on which the forbidden screw sits is the same height as the one where the button is still present.

If required, I'll snap some pic's and measurements from a cable pulley I have laying around.

Paul.
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:15 PM   #19
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I have a spare set of tb's
I will go downstairs and mike the height the "button". That will allow you to get close with the bolt and nut mod.
Stand by...............

OK I'm back
It is a press fit button that can easily be replaced by an 8-32 x 3/8 screw and nut on the other side.
Head diameter needs to be .272" and the head height needs to be.083" high.
I got these measurements off 3 different bodies.

If you do not have the resources to make one up I can make you one up for the cost of shipping
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:12 PM   #20
SpaceManSpiff
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@PaulRS --thanks I didn't know that...thanks (sure looks like that from the marks).

@GS Addict --good work!

This should help the OP get back on the road.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:01 PM   #21
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This is what it is supposed to look like; I hold a flashlight inside the pipe to make sure I could see the opening.

Oh - what the Hell: If you can't get a new stud to work, or if the brass has worn too much on the aluminum, send me a PM and I'll ship you one of my spare throttle bodies.

[TaSK]
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:56 PM   #22
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Been watching

... And this reminds me of how things should be; glad to see things still are this way. You guys rock!
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:19 AM   #23
Jazz62 OP
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You guys are all real gems!

Sorry for the delayed reply to all of you. I was at a gig (all too rare these days) and just got home. I owe you all a debt of gratitude for your generous offers to help me. Even though things are not going my way at the moment with this new bike it's great to be learning. Before I impose on any of you I will try contacting Bing tomorrow and see if it is possible to purchase the button alone or maybe just the pulley. I've also seen a couple of rough looking TB on ebay that aren't too expensive. Might be worth picking one up just to scavenge the throttle stop and also to tinker with and learn a thing or two.
The irony in all of this is, the damn bike was running good, a little lumpy at idle but pulled strongly, no obvious engine vibration at speed, no surging etc. I had to go mess things up by playing with Grok's Harmonzer and discovering the wacked out BBS positions then ruining the o-rings trying to reinstall the BBS after cleaning them. So how is it possible that it was running good or as I suggested before, am I just easy to please coming off my quirky Multistrada?
Lastly, the only o-rings available at Home Depot were from the plumbing section and the ones simply designated as "size 5", came in a box of 10, seem to fit perfectly on the BBS. Can these o-rings not be used due to their composition? Must I use viton o-rings?

@ GS Addict - when you say the head diameter needs to be .272" and the head height needs to be.083" high, are you saying that the ordinary 8-32 x 3/8 screw's head has to be ground down to those dimensions? Does the diameter matter as long as it's bigger than the hole? I have some tools but not a grinder and so far as measuring, I've been meaning to buy some digital calipers but haven't yet.

@ Tagesk - you're nuts!
@ Spaceman, PaulRS and Ragtop - thank you.
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:37 AM   #24
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz62 View Post
The irony in all of this is, the damn bike was running good, a little lumpy at idle but pulled strongly, no obvious engine vibration at speed, no surging etc.
That "stud" only comes into play when you release the throttle. When you run your bike, with non-zero throttle, that missing stud does not make any difference at all.
Thus, you should be able to balance the throttle bodies for perfect running at, say, 2.500 RPM.
The "only" thing the stud influences, is idle.

I say "only" because when the two sides come to rest at different angles, the bike's (e.g. electronics) view of what zero is, is not correct. Thus is it likely that you will find your ride even smoother when you have this fixed.

We must assume te previous owner did not know about the missing stud, or else he would have set in a small bolt and it is unlikely that you would ever have found out.

[TaSK]
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:50 AM   #25
Jazz62 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk View Post
That "stud" only comes into play when you release the throttle. When you run your bike, with non-zero throttle, that missing stud does not make any difference at all.
Thus, you should be able to balance the throttle bodies for perfect running at, say, 2.500 RPM.
The "only" thing the stud influences, is idle.

I say "only" because when the two sides come to rest at different angles, the bike's (e.g. electronics) view of what zero is, is not correct. Thus is it likely that you will find your ride even smoother when you have this fixed.

We must assume te previous owner did not know about the missing stud, or else he would have set in a small bolt and it is unlikely that you would ever have found out.

[TaSK]
Yes, I'm beginning to understand all of this now. And someone has told me that the bike's electronics or the TPS only knows what the left TB is doing and part of the trick is to get the right TB to match the left one exactly.

I am trying to assume or I should say hope that the previous owner knew nothing about this, but wouldn't he have seen this stud missing if he had just replaced all the throttle cables? He provided me with the complete maintenance log on the bike, all of it performed by him so he is a well-versed mechanic and has owned many BMW's.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:33 AM   #26
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz62 View Post
I am trying to assume or I should say hope that the previous owner knew nothing about this, but wouldn't he have seen this stud missing if he had just replaced all the throttle cables?
It might have fallen off while he replaced the cables, or before (although that is hard to envision; how never ever heard about it)
Notice, you can't see it is missing without crawling all over the bike.

He was then baffled to find that he was unable to get it to idle smoothly with the new cables.
No vibrations while running, but rough on idle.
He correctly uses the brass screw to compensate; the result of which started this thread.
It becomes slightly better, but not as good as it was.
Something is wrong.

Next thing is to (yet another time) remove the Bowden-box to verify that the cables are seated properly. As you might know, this includes disassembling the left handlebar, removing the tank, and getting your fingers into a few mm of space to press that damn lever, and he finds that all is well, and, and, and when it is all back together, it didn't help at all.

Out of ideas, and with a bike he is going to sell, and one that runs well, he gives up and calls it a day.
(And, most likely, grant himself a Gin Martini to lessen some frustration).

[TaSK]
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:08 AM   #27
SpaceManSpiff
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Ron,

Those exact orings (no. 5 from Home Depot) did not work on my bike. While the ID is too small they stretched enough.....BUT they have a larger cross section and seem to have a higher durometer (hardness) than the OE o-rings. I have some proper metric o-rings on order and would be happy to mail you a couple when they get in (its not like I need 25 of them).

You don't have to use viton o-rings but they are more resistant to heat (400+ deg F) and harsh chemicals (acids etc)...buna-n is acceptable too but they are not as good in the heat (250 deg F or so)...both are fuel resistant.

A pair of calipers is a handy thing to have..... Even the cheaper plastic digital ones should do the trick.
You can use a file to get the bolt head for the throttle stop to the right thickness.

Whoa! totally generous offer from Tagesk on the TBs!
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz62 View Post
Sorry for the delayed reply to all of you. I was at a gig (all too rare these days) and just got home. I owe you all a debt of gratitude for your generous offers to help me. Even though things are not going my way at the moment with this new bike it's great to be learning. Before I impose on any of you I will try contacting Bing tomorrow and see if it is possible to purchase the button alone or maybe just the pulley. I've also seen a couple of rough looking TB on ebay that aren't too expensive. Might be worth picking one up just to scavenge the throttle stop and also to tinker with and learn a thing or two.
The irony in all of this is, the damn bike was running good, a little lumpy at idle but pulled strongly, no obvious engine vibration at speed, no surging etc. I had to go mess things up by playing with Grok's Harmonzer and discovering the wacked out BBS positions then ruining the o-rings trying to reinstall the BBS after cleaning them. So how is it possible that it was running good or as I suggested before, am I just easy to please coming off my quirky Multistrada?
Lastly, the only o-rings available at Home Depot were from the plumbing section and the ones simply designated as "size 5", came in a box of 10, seem to fit perfectly on the BBS. Can these o-rings not be used due to their composition? Must I use viton o-rings?

@ GS Addict - when you say the head diameter needs to be .272" and the head height needs to be.083" high, are you saying that the ordinary 8-32 x 3/8 screw's head has to be ground down to those dimensions? Does the diameter matter as long as it's bigger than the hole? I have some tools but not a grinder and so far as measuring, I've been meaning to buy some digital calipers but haven't yet.

@ Tagesk - you're nuts!
@ Spaceman, PaulRS and Ragtop - thank you.
Yes, I would turn the head down on the lathe. The diameter is not really critical but should not be much smaller to ensure reliable contact to the adjuster screw. If no-one has played with the adjuster then .083 height may be all you need to get back to spec.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:12 AM   #29
GS Addict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk View Post
It might have fallen off while he replaced the cables, or before (although that is hard to envision; how never ever heard about it)
Notice, you can't see it is missing without crawling all over the bike.

He was then baffled to find that he was unable to get it to idle smoothly with the new cables.
No vibrations while running, but rough on idle.
He correctly uses the brass screw to compensate; the result of which started this thread.
It becomes slightly better, but not as good as it was.
Something is wrong.

Next thing is to (yet another time) remove the Bowden-box to verify that the cables are seated properly. As you might know, this includes disassembling the left handlebar, removing the tank, and getting your fingers into a few mm of space to press that damn lever, and he finds that all is well, and, and, and when it is all back together, it didn't help at all.

Out of ideas, and with a bike he is going to sell, and one that runs well, he gives up and calls it a day.
(And, most likely, grant himself a Gin Martini to lessen some frustration).

[TaSK]
Gin Martini??
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:31 AM   #30
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GS Addict View Post
Gin Martini??
A Martini is made from strong alcohol mixed with (a little!) dry Vermouth (and water from the ice).

These days, people from the Coca-Cola generation use Vodka to make Martinis.
We call them Vodka Martini.

What we think about a Vodka Martini can be learned from the US Government Regulation on Vodka:
Quote:
Originally Posted by US
...neutral spirits, so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color.
Doesn't that say everything needed.
No taste. No aroma. No Character.
Can Vodka be the main ingredient in a cultivating drink?
Unlikely.

A real Martini, on the other hand, is made from Gin.
We call them Gin Martini to make a statement.
Saying Gin Martini is like saying: No, I am sorry, but we don't have any Coca Cola in the house

[TaSK]


I quote from the Martini FAQ:
Q: What is a Martini? (1.1)
A: Do you want the short answer or the long answer?


Q: The short one first, please.
A: A Martini is a cocktail containing unequal portions of gin and dry vermouth (in a ratio of somewhere between 2:1 and 15:1, inclusive) served chilled, in a conical stemmed glass, garnished with either a green olive or a lemon twist.


Q: OK, I'm ready for the long answer now.
A: A highly vocal minority of Martini drinkers, the Prescriptivists,1 insists that the short answer is in fact the only answer. Any deviation from this definition may produce an enjoyable cocktail, but it will not be a Martini. (There is a single exception: one may use less vermouth.)
Strict adherence to the Prescriptivist position brings with it several undeniable benefits. Foremost among these is the quality of the drink itself: it is difficult, perhaps impossible, to truly improve on the classic American Dry Martini. There are also practical benefits, since the Prescriptivist has no need to stock an elaborate bar. Give him an ample supply of the two base ingredients and a fresh stock of garnishes, and he's set. Finally, there is the bracing sense of keeping the barbarian at the gate, of shielding a flickering flame of culture against the gusts of fad and fashion.
In the end, however, the Prescriptivist position is untenable, because both the English language and the Martini itself are constantly evolving entities.
In truth, there has never been a single definitive version of the Martini: it was born through variations of earlier, similar cocktails; the earliest recorded recipes differ significantly from each other and even more greatly from the classic American Dry Martini; and continuous — sometimes radical — modification of the basic recipe has been a part of the drink's identity and appeal throughout its history. The rise of vodka as the most popular base spirit and the multitude of Martini variations that became popular in the 1990's are only the most recent cycles in a process of mixological experimentation and exploration that has accompanied the Martini since its inception.
The difficulty surrounding precise definition is compounded by an additional factor. In a manner shared by no other cocktail, the Martini has become an icon. For many it is a symbol, either of a certain subset of American culture, or of America itself. As Lowell Edmunds discusses in his scholarly deconstruction of the cocktail, Martini, Straight Up: The Classic American Cocktail, the word "Martini" evokes not only a cocktail, but also an image and an idea. The symbolic potency of the Martini depends very little, if at all, on its ingredients. It depends somewhat on the conical cocktail glass in which it is traditionally served, and it depends above all on the name: if someone identifies a given drink as a Martini, then, for symbolic purposes, it is a Martini.
One may, however, arrive at a workable definition by setting aside consideration of the Martini qua symbol as a matter calling for scholarly exegesis rather than definition, and by adopting a descriptivist stance toward the definition itself. This is what Anistatia Miller and Jared Brown have done in Shaken Not Stirred: A Celebration of the Martini: "a Martini is a short drink made with either gin or vodka and served straight up, in a Martini glass" (14).2 While Prescriptivists may shudder at some of the concoctions that this definition allows into the fold, and while others may be disappointed that their favored avant garde Martini-like drink is not blessed, this definition does accurately describe the drink throughout its history, while remaining narrow enough to distinguish Martinis from other cocktails that happen to contain gin, vodka, or vermouth, or happen to be served in a Martini glass.

1 "Prescriptivist", in my usage here, is not a synonym for "Traditionalist" or "Purist." Traditionalists and Purists are those who drink traditional Martinis, made according to the short definition. Prescriptivists are those who insist that cocktails made according to the short definition are the only true Martinis, and that deviant varieties should be referred to by a different name.
2 A "short drink" is a cocktail that contains primarily spirits — such as a Martini or Manhattan. A long drink is mixed drink served in a tall glass, containing approximately eight parts non-alcoholic mixers to one part spirits — such as a Screwdriver or Bloody Mary.
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