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Old 04-11-2012, 01:04 PM   #31
FoldArt
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I've got a Silverwing that I put a J Costa on in January of 2010. I've put 16,000 miles on it since then. I replaced the pins last year (about 9500 miles on original pins/rollers) and replaced the belt at the same time. In February 2012 (just about 700 miles ago) I installed a HiT clutch. I also own a Vespa GTS, and I installed Dr Pulley sliders last Fall sometime. Most of these comments are regarding the Silverwing/J Costa; I mention the Vespa solely to show that I have some experience with DP Sliders.

What I recall about the J Costa is from memory and not written notes, but is probably accurate.

With the J Costa, the Silverwing runs at higher rpm's under any acceleration - whether from a standstill or at cruise. It would hit 6800 rpm at WOT (peak horsepower is about 7000 rpm) and hold it there until about 60 miles per hour, at which point rpm's would drop. Most cruising speeds would be about 5000-5500 rpm's (peak torque is about 5000-5200 rpm). With the JC, there is a distinct drop in rpm's once you back off the throttle and cruise - about a 1000 rpm drop.

With the original rollers, acceleration under WOT would jump to about 5000 rpm's and then climb if your speed went high enough (memory is foggy, but probably above 65/70 mph). If you accelerated more gently, the rpm's would be about 3000 rpm's and climb slowly towards 5000 rpm's. There is a common feeling among Silverwing owners that this was a cause of vibration and rumble on a stock Silverwing.

In both cases, cruising speed rpm's would end up around 5000 rpm. Generally, the JC would cruise about 200 rpm lower than stock rollers. But, if you snap the throttle open, the JC would allow the rpm's to jump 1000 - 1500 rpm to get near the HP peak. Stock rollers would not change their rpm much at all - it depended upon torque to accelerate.

Regarding the Vespa with DP Sliders - they are 10 gram Sliders vs. the 11 gram stock rollers. Generally, they cause more rpm most of the time, but have given me more snap off the line. Top speed does not seem to be affected - after installing a new belt about 250 miles ago, my top speed was about 76 mph with my larger, cold weather screen in place. That is a good top speed with that screen for that bike. My gas mileage did not change much - maybe 2 mpg less than I used to get. I get about 65 mpg in the colder months, and 70-75 mpg in warm weather. I take more long trips in the nice weather.

I want to warn you about a few concerns with the J Costa.

First, my mpg probably dropped 2-3 mpg with the JC (from about 50 mpg to 47/48 mpg when it was first installed). However, as it wore, miles per gallon slipped a little, even after installing the new belt and variator pins.

Second, the variators wear out. The pins get about 8000-10,000 miles before they cause the rpms to run too high all the time. Also, the brass bushing in the center of the variator is impregnated with graphite which is supposed to lubricate the bushing. By the time I had 9000 miles on mine, the rpms were very high. Upon disassembly, I found the bushing was very sticky and would not slide left/right on the crank shaft collar very well. I cleaned it thoroughly and installed new pins/rollers and it worked well for about 100 miles, then began to stick again (I saw rpms up to 8000 a few times). I disassembled it again, cleaned it, and had the same thing happen (100 miles then sticky). The third time around, I lubed the brass bushing carefully with a drop of synthetic motor oil and got about 2000 miles before it acted up. Last time around, I lubed it with high temp wheel bearing grease and it is working well (but for how long???). It's getting to be high maintenance.

Third, when the pins wear, and your belt wears, the two halves of the variator can get too close together and grind away at each other.

Finally, a friend who also has a Silverwing with a JC said that in addition to the same problems I've had, he only got less than 6000 miles on a new belt he installed (while using the JC).

All of this adds up to enough problems that I will be installing DP Sliders before the year is over. The JC is an absolute blast when it works well, but they tell you in the instructions that it is a race part and not expected to be used like a stock part.

Regarding the HiT clutch - I bought it because I had a good year last year (financially) and said WTF. It works mostly as advertised - it allows rpm's to climb higher before the clutch engages, so there is less lugging of the engine. It also locks up the clutch to avoid slippage when you accelerate while already cruising. Installation was easy. Acceleration off the line is better, and cruising speed acceleration is slightly better. All of that is fine, but I would only recommend it to someone with excess disposable income. I do not believe you will get better gas mileage with the HiT clutch, so there will be no monetary savings.

If you have unlimited funds, then buy them both (J Costa and HiT clutch) - they are fun but not earth shakingly fun. If you don't have unlimited funds, then I would suggest spending your money on the DP Sliders (which I think you said you already have done). The J Costa does cause rpm's to climb under acceleration and to reduce while cruising, which is what you are looking for. But, the J Costa is quite a bit more expensive than the Sliders, wears quicker and makes for more maintenance. And you will never save enough in gas to pay for either the JC or the HiT clutch.

Hope this helps, Cortez. Or helps somebody else.
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #32
Cortez OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaz View Post
Cortez- The reason no one has answered your question, is because it is not a cut and dried one. There is no simple answer to your question.
Sure there is.
Just need someone who remembers how much the engine used to rev before
he swapped over to jcosta, then repeat the process, at normal riding speeds.
It's very simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaz View Post
Now to answer the question you have been asking. You went the wrong way with the Dr.Pully slider. You need to go up 2 grams above the stock roller weights, so if they were 15 grams, you need to go to a 17 DP.
Um, actually, you're wrong.
There's A LOT of people on kymcoforum.com who tried different slider
weights, and even the dr pulley folks recommend going 10% lighter then
stock to MAINTAIN the same top speed, and gain acceleration.

The 17gr sliders would result in even lower revs after 60mph and the
scoot would actually be even slower, since it would have even less
power at those revs.

The guys who get 100mph indicated out of their Downtowns are usually
using 13gr sliders and a few other mods since that weight allows the scoot
to reach 8000+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaz View Post
Oh yea, why I questioned the horsepower on your scoot. The change to the variator weight that you did should not have changed the top speed that much, if you really had the horse power to pull it.
The horse power we're talking about is achieved at 8000 revs, which I can
no reach with this setup, and heavier weights would make it even worse.
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:14 PM   #33
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Thank you FoldArt, this should be a 'sticky' post, it's a great review of what's
going on.

I guess you're right, I don't have $$$ to throw around or I'd just buy it and
try it, and I'm obviously asking around a lot..

The 15.5gr stock to 14gr DP slider upgrade did wonders already, and I should
just stick with that.

I value reliability above everything else since I tend to do long rides..

Thank you very much!

Now.. when will someone make an aftermarket eCVT (burgman 650 type stuff)?
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:47 PM   #34
Chockolate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReaper! View Post
Personally I've never checked the rpm's with stock verses the jcosta , to tell you the truth I really don't care .
I've seen no difference top end , but a huge difference on take off . Also I burn a little more gasoline , but again
I don't care about using a little more fuel . I am happy for the trade off because the performance is that much better .
The only bad thing I've ever heard about the jcosta , is from people who are to cheap to buy one .

TheReaper!
Check this out:

http://majestyusa.com/forums/viewtop...5fda4b1ae90086
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Old 06-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Thank you FoldArt, this should be a 'sticky' post, it's a great review of what's
going on.

I guess you're right, I don't have $$$ to throw around or I'd just buy it and
try it, and I'm obviously asking around a lot..

The 15.5gr stock to 14gr DP slider upgrade did wonders already, and I should
just stick with that.

I value reliability above everything else since I tend to do long rides..

Thank you very much!

Now.. when will someone make an aftermarket eCVT (burgman 650 type stuff)?

Glad to be able to help.

PS I have recently given up on the JC. Tried 24g sliders, now using 21g sliders. MPG with 24g was 55.1 on 255 mile trip, but acceleration mediocre. 21 g sliders have good acceleration (almost as good as JC, but not quite). I will see what kind of MPG I get in two weeks.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldArt View Post
Glad to be able to help.

PS I have recently given up on the JC. Tried 24g sliders, now using 21g sliders. MPG with 24g was 55.1 on 255 mile trip, but acceleration mediocre. 21 g sliders have good acceleration (almost as good as JC, but not quite). I will see what kind of MPG I get in two weeks.
I can now already guess that kind of stuff when I see the revs I'm at.


There's a huge difference in fuel consumption on mine between 70 and
80 mph (about 20%), but I love that my sliders took the cruising revs
down by about 500 revs at speeds over 65mph or so.

HOWEVER, with a huge-ass windscreen and a huge-ass top-case, the
bike will now top out at 81-82mph, NOT GOOD for a 30hp bike!

At that 81-82mph top speed (83-84 if I'm lucky), the bike is running at
7300 or so revs, and the damn thing has it's maximum power output at
8000!

Good thing is - I can probably run it at those revs 24/7 if I wanted to..
the bad thing is, I want the rest of my 3-4hp back, damnit! If I wanted
a 250/20hp bike, I'd get that!


Going down one size (weight) with the sliders may fix that, but then again,
I may end up with the same top speed, at higher revs, and then I'd probably
shoot myself in the knee. Acceleration would be even better, but I'd be
looking at 2/3 of available revs just chillin' around town, which is, again, not
good.

Did I mention I want Burgman 650's se-CVT yet?
SOB.

Excuse the rant.

On the plus side, the bike is a joy to ride between 40 and 70mph.
I just need that "power" button to make it rev more when I want it to.

Lemme close the Malosi Multivar page while you tell me that I shouldn't
have sold my bike (with 6 gears).
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:15 AM   #37
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Speaking of Malossi Multivar..

Can anyone tell me (since I'm not able to figure it out by myself) what the
hell does it do different to any stock CVT to make it that special (read:
expensive)?

Most people answer: "It'll make your bike accelerate faster!"

Fine.
I can do that with the stock CVT too, just use different weights
and/or sliders.

I can mess around with springs to alter the launch revs too on the
stock CVT, so it's not that either.

I don't want to make a screaming racing scooter out of this thing, but
it would be wonderful if wide open throttle would pin the revs to 8000,
so I can use the damn 30hp I paid for, and not have 7000 revs cruising
at 40mph as a side-effect.

From what I've read on CVTs in the last few years.. this is not possible
without the SE-CVT or a similar system.

Someone better prove me wrong.
Right now, please.


p.s. Did I mention I had a stock People 300GTi (2hp down on Downtown,
and about 50lbs less) virtually up to 100mph? Stock!
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:06 AM   #38
Cortez OP
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Too late!

Too late!
You people suck at talking other people out of idiotic decisions!
So I just ordered the Malossi Multivar 2000.

TAKE THAT!


Given the videos on the youtubez with that setup, I'm probably gonna have
to go the Dr Pulley slider route with this guy too, we'll see what happens.

The stock weights are 23x18mm, 21gr, 6 of them.

Stock variator had 6 of 20x12mm, 15,5gr weights which I replaced with
14gr sliders.
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:21 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Too late!
You people suck at talking other people out of idiotic decisions!
Glad to be able to help!
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:29 AM   #40
Cortez OP
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Originally Posted by MODNROD View Post
Glad to be able to help!


We'll see how that goes!
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:44 PM   #41
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I used to ride a 2006 Majesty, which I installed the JC into and rode it for 10k miles before I sold it. The variator raised the revs pretty across the board, unless I was really light with the throttle. It gave considerably improved low and mid range acceleration, smoothing out juddering or hesitation. Top speed I never got to test, as I was never on long enough of a road to see what it would peg the speedo at, but I got up to 90mph before I ran out of road. I can't remember what the maximum revs it was able to achieve, but it consistently could rev 500-1000 what it normally would do in stock mode. I never hit the rev limiter with the JC, but it got close to red line, which I forget what it was. At highway cruising speeds, it did settle down a bit. Gas mileage did go down 2-3mpg driving conservatively and more if driven aggressively. I never had a problem like what I've read others have experienced with the JC; bell housing cracking, bushing failure, etc., but I think I was at the end of the life on the weights when I got rid of the bike.

I've also have been contemplating DP sliders for my TMax or the Malossi Multivar 2000 variator. From what I've read in the Malossi manual, you can tune the performance with different weight combo's. Tourist, sport and race. The TMax variator takes 8 rollers total. The Malossi kit provides 2 different weighted sets of 8 rollers. For the tourist setting, you use all 8 of the heavier weights; for the sport setting, you use 4 of each of the different weights, alternating their placement order; in the race setting (with modified exhaust) you use all 8 of the lighter rollers. It also gives 2 shims to put between the half pulley and the hub of the variator to widen the gap for the belt to drop toward the drive shaft more, in effect giving a lower gear ratio to start from which gives even better acceleration and performance than rollers alone. With 2 complete sets of rollers, if you run the sport setting, you have another complete set or rollers as a replacement, effectively doubling the service life before needing to purchase more rollers. The only thing that isn't explained is what Tourist, Sport and Race configurations are like compared to stock. This kit is supposed to be for Sport use on the street and not racing. I'm talking to MalossiUSA asking them all kinds of questions.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #42
Cortez OP
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Great input, thnx!

I'll get my Multivar with 21 gr weights which more or less should pin the
revs to the redline at any given WOT moment.. which I'm not sure I'll like
in the long run, if the revs stay too high in normal cruising mode.

It's an easy fix though with the sliders.
I wouldn't bother finding the "right" roller combo since you can have a
wider range with the sliders.

I've seen what 10% lighter sliders did to my bike compared to stock
(some 500 revs more up to 65mph, then 500 revs less everywhere,
and about 1000 revs more at WOT) so I expect the same to happen
with the multivar.

..which brings us to the question.. why the hell didn't I just swap the
14gr sliders with 13gr sliders?

I have no idea what the multivar is supposed to do better then the stock
variator, and no one was able to answer that question - all I got was
"it'll be faster!". Jesus.


Anyways..
Anyone who hasn't tried the sliders.. should.. right now.
It was a great upgrade, and cheap too.

What I lost in the MPG figures around town, I gained back outside of
town, and the bike went 2 seconds faster to 62mph, just with 10%
lighter sliders.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:48 PM   #43
FoldArt
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Just and update on my Dr P Sliders in the Silverwing.

Went from the J Costa (which was pretty shagged after 16,000 miles and two sets of weights) to 24 gram Dr P's. They were decent, and got me a 55 mpg average on a typical 250 mile trip, but the acceleration was lacking. I went to 21 gram Dr P's and have put some miles on them in the last three weeks. Acceleration on the 21g weights is definitely better than the 24g weight, but still not as good as the J Costa. First tank with the 21g netted 49.7 mpg. Next tankful was actually multiple tankfuls totaling 16.3 gallons and 842 miles on a four day trip in the NC mountains. Average mpg was 51.7. Trip included lots of two laners, Cherohola Skyway, Tale of the Dragon, Highway 28 for those of you familiar with the area.

I will say that the J Costa variator was noticeably smoother than the stock variator with Sliders of either weight. At any speed I feel vibration through the feet, hands and seat. Its not Harley bad, but a steady and fast vibe. Not enough to make me go out and buy another JC (though, if the price were right, I'd buy one for the performance).

All things considered, I will probably stick with the 21g Sliders for a while. They are a good blend of price, performance and fuel usage. If anyone else is considering them, I say to go for it. Consider using 20 gram if you want; I doubt it would change your MPG much compared to the 21g Sliders.

FYI, rpm at various speeds:

Acceleration at WOT is about 5600 rpm with the 21g; about 5200 rpm with the 24g Sliders.

Cruise speeds with the 21g Sliders at 50 mph is about 4500 rpm; at 60 mph about 4800-4900 rpm; at 70 mph about 5100-5200 rpm. Speeds are indicated and about 5% optimistic. IIRC, 80 mph is about 5600-5700 rpm. I do not remember exact numbers for the 24g Sliders; I would guess most rpms were about 200 lower.
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:08 AM   #44
Cortez OP
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That's interesting, rather small changes between 21 and 24.. I've seen reports of a lot bigger differences between different sliders on the Downtown 300, but no one bothered taking notes and was certain about what they had to say.

I'll try the multivar 2000 with regular malossi rollers next, which I know will
have the revs bouncing off the limiter at WOT, and try to tone it down from
there if needed with heavier sliders.

Thanks for the input!

p.s. Speking of MPG figures, I just got 73MPG on the last 2 up ride.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:12 PM   #45
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I would be willing to bet that when you have another 15000 km on your bike it will be much faster and more responsive than it is now even if you did nothing. I noticed a big difference on my 263 SYM when I hit 8000 km and now at 18000 km the bike is that much more responsive again and it's bone stock.

I can accelerate on hills at highway speeds that the bike used to labor on. It runs so much better that I realize that my engine was still quite tight even when I thought it was broken in.

At 5000 km the bike was slow compared to now.
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