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Old 04-14-2012, 06:49 PM   #61
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post

Yes ebrabaek, the doubled output wires are in parallel, and the shutdown current drain sequence you measured is normal across the entire K7X platform. Whats fun is on rare occasion, the ZFE hangs a a stage previous to final and drains the shit out of your battery :) It is rare in the latest ZFE firmware load, but still happens.

Outstanding thread my friend, though the all the pictures overran my buffer till I cleaned it

.
Thanks Joel for chiming in...... Without your help... I would not have jumped... So thanks...... I hear you on the bracket. I will replace it in the morning. When I looked at the new R/R.... I did not think that the heat transfer was a necessity..... Those fins on the front are mega..... Never the less. That said. I will work on a alloy bracket in the morning...... Peeeeewwwwww on the thermo couple temps..... I had a feeling it would be inconclusive.....but elected to give it a go anyway....... Thank you again for all your help in starting this.

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Old 04-14-2012, 07:04 PM   #62
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The part No specified for the early F650 should be treated with caution, the early F650 as opposed to the F650GS only had a 300 watt alternator so the part for the early model may be under spec'd

Re the ebay sellers, be cautious as the link below will show shindengen has had a problem with counterfeit products

http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_...ro/beware.html

Joel, on the GS single the stock VR is isolated from the frame (rubber mounted) so they were expecting the heatsink to dissipate the heat, which in the 2 stock mounting locations it struggles & overheats
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:16 PM   #63
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Soooo.... You're saying the FH0012AA/FH0020AA is better than the ESR124 from electosport? Will I shoot my eye out?!

What's the basis for your opinion that it's better? There are 1000's of RR's being replaced. Lots and lots of them are the same crap model that BMW used on this bike. Maybe they are production issues or out of ordinary units but my research today showed many stator failures that seemed recurr until the RR was replaced. Coincidence? I doubt it & I dont like coincidences.

The common thread in all the (um...) threads I read on the RR & stator & battery failure threads on the Suzuki, Triumph, Ducati, etc. forums imply that the MOSFET replacement resolves the problems. Often they are simple upgrades from another bike. I guess you guys can test it but the resolution seems to be the consistency of the unit and if heat is the death of them as you suggest above then cooler is better.

Cooler is cooler.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
The part No specified for the early F650 should be treated with caution, the early F650 as opposed to the F650GS only had a 300 watt alternator so the part for the early model may be under spec'd

If you're referring to my post the part number is for the F800GS, the F800r, S & ST and the post 2000 F650GS. All rotax motor designs if I recall correctly.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:27 PM   #65
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Referring in general, not to your specific post, in the past some were confused between differences on the 2 single models. Have not looked at the spec for the SXElectronics unit but the early F650 crew had problems with the electrosport units when they first started looking at alternatives, perhaps electrosport have improved since then

EDIT - In search by model Electrosport do not specify any VR's for any of our models "There are no products for this model."

WayneC1 screwed with this post 04-14-2012 at 07:33 PM
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:34 PM   #66
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Might add that if the F800GS RRs are failing at a higher rate than the R, S, or ST then perhaps vibration is the cause? If so then solutions would be a cooler and more vibration resistant RR unit or rubber mount. If the rubber mount is not adviseable due to heatsink needs then relocating it into more airflow might be needed. That said I highly doubt that the BMW engineers designed the mount & location with the intention of heatsinking via frame contact.

Starting to think vibration is killing the unit. It then takes down the battery and on occasion the stator.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:40 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Soooo.... You're saying the FH0012AA/FH0020AA is better than the ESR124 from electosport? Will I shoot my eye out?!

What's the basis for your opinion that it's better? There are 1000's of RR's being replaced. Lots and lots of them are the same crap model that BMW used on this bike. Maybe they are production issues or out of ordinary units but my research today showed many stator failures that seemed recurr until the RR was replaced. Coincidence? I doubt it & I dont like coincidences.

The common thread in all the (um...) threads I read on the RR & stator & battery failure threads on the Suzuki, Triumph, Ducati, etc. forums imply that the MOSFET replacement resolves the problems. Often they are simple upgrades from another bike. I guess you guys can test it but the resolution seems to be the consistency of the unit and if heat is the death of them as you suggest above then cooler is better.

Cooler is cooler.
A thousand people wailing something on the internet does not make it so :)

Very few people will even own most of those bikes long enough to have a second stator fail, but regardless, junk science is still junk science. Getting the voltage up is good for at least some stator heat removal. Certain types of R/R failure can damage a stator, but they are super rare and more common to Mosfet shunt type regulators. My source is myself and I am quite certain.

I did suggest the Mosfet R/R used in this thread because it is a good one, I'm sure there are better, but this one was easy to find.

The SCR versus Mosfet threads all over motorcycle forums are complete bullshit and this is common knowledge amongst professionals in the field.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:41 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
Referring in general, not to your specific post, in the past some were confused between differences on the 2 single models. Have not looked at the spec for the SXElectronics unit but the early F650 crew had problems with the electrosport units when they first started looking at alternatives, perhaps electrosport have improved since then

EDIT - In search by model Electrosport do not specify any VR's for any of our models "There are no products for this model."

Right. That's why I cross referenced the original Shindengen SHxxc model RR that is stock on our bike and found other models that had the same stock unit and failures, and the electrosport common replacement which is the ESR124.

I'm not saying it is better, just that it's a cross reference find that should work for ~$90.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:47 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
A thousand people wailing something on the internet does not make it so :)

Very few people will even own most of those bikes long enough to have a second stator fail, but regardless, junk science is still junk science. Getting the voltage up is good for at least some stator heat removal. Certain types of R/R failure can damage a stator, but they are super rare and more common to Mosfet shunt type regulators. My source is myself and I am quite certain.

I did suggest the Mosfet R/R used in this thread because it is a good one, I'm sure there are better, but this one was easy to find.

The SCR versus Mosfet threads all over motorcycle forums are complete bullshit and this is common knowledge amongst professionals in the field.
Joel,
Not saying MOSFET is better. I am saying that the stock unit is a common failure on many model bikes it is used on. Don't think you can argue that actually. So maybe you are right and a silicone shunt RR is just as good as a MOSFET, but the stock unit used seems to fail more often than it should.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:58 PM   #70
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From memory Electrosport originally did specify a VR for the F's & clearly they are no longer doing so, it has been commented on elsewhere & I wonder if it was as a result of the problems the early F650 crew had in using it as a replacement. so I would be very cautious in considering it, especially as I see no hard facts on it's spec

EDIT - Full specs on the shindengen unit
http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/.../VRegFH012.pdf
http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/...RegFH012AA.pdf
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:11 PM   #71
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From memory Electrosport originally did specify a VR for the F's & clearly they are no longer doing so, it has been commented on elsewhere & I wonder if it was as a result of the problems the early F650 crew had in using it as a replacement. so I would be very cautious in considering it, especially as I see no hard facts on it's spec
Not exactly. The early ones that F650 owners tried to use were ones they guessed would work from something the electrexusa old calalogue.
Here is the F650 FAQ with some info:
http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRect...is%20Rectifier

Looks like that company became electrosport I guess b/c the links in that FAQ direct to the electrosport site. According to the electrosport site they merged with another company and all products are made in-house in USA. So maybe we shouldn't presume & assume it's poor quality from a post by one person from 10+ years ago.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:52 AM   #72
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Electrosport is (now) affiliated with Procom Engineering.
(that's what it says in the title block of the Sale's managers e-mail footer)

Since the FH-series R/R are still the shunt design and not the series design (I for one was confused on that ... and thought it was a series design), I guess the best we could hope for would be a modest temp. change as a result of the higher voltage regulation. On the plus side, Ebrabaek is unlikely to be confusing his CANBUS / ZFE as a result of the new regulator....

PS: Thanks for chiming in Joel ... I was reading the latest appends and thinking "Well who gives a flying !@$#!#%@$^@# how much more efficiently the MOSFETs switch ... our objective is to turn all the surplus power into heat anyway ....
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:31 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Joel,
Not saying MOSFET is better. I am saying that the stock unit is a common failure on many model bikes it is used on. Don't think you can argue that actually. So maybe you are right and a silicone shunt RR is just as good as a MOSFET, but the stock unit used seems to fail more often than it should.
On another bike, perhaps with less airstream cooling, blocked radiation path, or less conduction, the same regulator BMW uses on the F800GS may be failing early, but that isn't happening on the F800GS, F800ST, F800R, or f650 GS twin.

It will fail from being loose because it overheats. It's not vibration because the entire board is potted in epoxy.

As to using the frame as a heat sink, try this simple experiment. Start your bike, idle for 5 minutes, then place your hand on the R/R. it will be uncomfortable hot but will not sizzle spit or rapidly burn you.

NOW, let everything cool, unbolt the R/R and let it hang, idle for 5 minutes, and the R/R will sizzle spit.

OR, do as I did. Leave the R/R hanging on a bike you just replaced the engine in and are anxious to make sure runs before you bolt all the peripherals onto, idle about 20 minutes, notice the headlights get brighter, think "hmm, perhaps I should have bolted that R/R to the frame, wonder how warm it is?", reach down, grab it, and burn a waffle pattern into your hand.


As to R/R killing stators.... This is possible but does not seem to have been the case with BMW. First, the mechanism for this to happen is when the diodes fail closed which in itself is super uncommon. I have never once seen this happen with the K7X R/R. The 3 R/R's I saw fail that were not warranty because they were loose or unbolted (2 loose ones had customer installed guards on them so BMW didn't leave them loose, last loose one was my fault per above) and the one and only I saw fail that was tight all lost the shunt and went high voltage. It wasn't something the customer could miss as it blew the headlights and shut down the ECU in over voltage protection.

Further In-warranty replacement of the R/R, i.e. not because it was unbolted, is incredibly rare. I had to fight to get the legitimate warranty failed R/R covered because across the whole K7 line, the one I saw was only the second in 3 years USA wide.

Lastly SOP when a stator fails in warranty is for the dealer to measure ac ripple once the stator is replaced. If ac ripple exceeds mVs, then replace the R/R as well and code stator replacement as consequent to the R/R failure. When I left BMW there had not been a single stator replaced as consequent to R/R failure, and there had been PLENTY of stator failures.

There are coincidences, in the world and maybe something is happening with the stock R/R on other models that is causing them to loose diodes, but nothing I have seen or heard, even here, convinces me this has ever occurred on the K7X platform.

BUT, the voltage regulation setting of the K7X oe regulator does suck and will cause AGM batteries to sulfate early as well as in theory cause slightly more heating of the stator, which is why I would recommend it's replacement.

I'm just saying, beat BMW up for the right reason, they spec'd too low of a voltage. NOT because they used SCR style regulation which is actually typically more robust then FET and cheaper to boot, unless people like paying higher list prices for bikes for no tangible benefit :)

P.S. the only place I know of that motorcycle manufactures install FET regulators OE is on race bikes they don't want to have to have as much air cooling on as it would disturb aerodynamic drag. aerodynamic drag is not an issue on the K7 platform as they are all about as efficient as a brick is at moving through air lol
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:45 PM   #74
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... OR, do as I did. Leave the R/R hanging on a bike you just replaced the engine in and are anxious to make sure runs before you bolt all the peripherals onto, idle about 20 minutes, notice the headlights get brighter, think "hmm, perhaps I should have bolted that R/R to the frame, wonder how warm it is?", reach down, grab it, and burn a waffle pattern into your hand...
And I thought I was the only one that did crap like that ....

Hope you are not suffering any lasting effects from the run-in with the venison burger on the hoof?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:23 PM   #75
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Leeme see....

Stator fails why? Because it is too hot and b/c it runs at max output all the time.

It runs at max output b/c that is the only way a shunt type RR can function. It draws full all the time and shunts the unneeded to ground.

A series regulator is another option. It would theoretically allow the stator to run cooler. The only drawback that anyone has noted is your concern about added noise. Seems that is what we should be testing if we want to improve stator life...
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